Hi Grace, sorry; i should have got back to you before now. It sounds like you have had a great deal of hardship, a lot of it caused by lack of money, and bureaucrats who are willing to take advantage of anyone they can bully.
Often if you appear poor, or don't have good social skills , or don't have the money for a lawyer, some people will try to get away with whatever they can. There are mean folks in this world.
Have you thought about finding a disability advocate group with a lawyer who works pro bono ( for free) and seeing if they can at least help you get the govt money you are owed? I know you said you don't like lawyers; but like any other group of people, not all of them are bad, and some may even enjoy taking on obnoxious bureaucracy and righting wrongs. Hope all goes well (and better) for you and your son.

Grace,
For what it's worth, I believe you, as I'm sure most everyone else here does, too. Heck, most of us are here on this very site because our stories/experiences were not believed! So please don't feel like you are on trial here. You are, most assuredly, among friends, my dear.
-Donna L.

John,
What you say is of course reasonable from a theoretical point of view, but when the vaccine court in USA has colluded in the cover-up of thousands of vaccine injuries and deaths, why does no-one believe me when I say that WE have been dragged through sham courts for decades in attempts to cheat us out of our home, our electricity, our income, my pension, and all of the services everyone else gets automatically, and that I can't defend myself because of being autistic due to a vaccine injury? Why are a gastro-enterologist whistleblower and an epidemiologist whistleblower your longed-for salvation, but "a pharmacologist whistleblower who researched vaccines?.....No, how would that work?"

Hera,
I forgot to mention how we've been forced out of one home after another. One lawyer lied that there was nothing in the deeds about access to our house, making it impossible for us to live there. I now know, you get a map showing what belongs to you and what you have right of way over. Most often, as in that case, it's been "neighbours from hell", the worst being one in Wales who repeatedly cut our water supply (my older son ended up in hospital with a serious bug); he blocked our access with boulders or chaining a gate; brought down our telephone wire; hacked down our pear tree; tampered with our mail; and shouted death threats through the window. My sons, aged 7 and 11, were absolutely terrified. The police were informed on each occasion but refused to act (cf. Suzanne Humphreys' recent experience). My solicitor sent them a formal complaint but no action resulted. (So if I no longer go to the police or lawyers it's for a reason). Clearly we had to move away.
The methods now that we live in the city are different. In the UK, when you're in receipt of welfare benefits your local council tax is paid automatically (ie. central government pays the local council on your behalf). On several occasions when my benefits were stopped I received no official notification. At one tribunal the Dept. for Work and Pensions were reprimanded for this failure, by the Chairman. I thought this was because it meant I had no "decision" to appeal. I now realize that every time they do this they then ask me to re-apply. The previous claim could still be running (and going into the pocket of someone in the office). If I make a new claim I could be committing the crime of making multiple claims. On the hand, as things stand my council tax is allegedly not being paid (although it might be). They are defrauding the British taxpayer. Autistic people (high functioning) are obviously vulnerable to being used for this kind of racket. People here who believe the CDC is conspiring to kill and maim children are being hypocritical to accuse me and my family of being jointly insane, and imagining all these physical things which are being done to us. What makes you think local officials are Jesus Christ and incapable of any sin? They have unaccountable access to the public purse! To those who claim to be Christians I suggest you read the book of Revelation, where it says, in the last days all the lawyers and officials will become corrupt. That's what we've experienced.

Hera, I'll respond to your comment addressed to my son, as he's very busy at the moment. Thanks for raising your reasonable puzzlement about our circumstances in a non accusatory manner. If people don't believe me I'd much rather they'd say than just ignore me.
Some of my story I think would be publicly verifyable. Such as, I've often said that my father was Senior Lecturer in Pharmacology at Dundee University, who worked on vaccines during WW2, for Borrough's Wellcome. That gives the clue to why me having a vaccine injury would be a problem for Pharma. Andy Wakefield has been persecuted, and not just within a small community.
Regarding our finances, there is a group in our society which misses out on the usual benefits of society. It's abandoned families, who had their own home, mom was full-time at home, and father leaves, gives up his job so he doesn't have to provide, and there's no way for that family to "compete" in the rat race, with only one parent. There were no food banks when we were in that situation, in the 1990s, but luckily we had 2 acres on which to grow our food. There was no support from doctors for my state of health because they want to make out M.E. is psychological to cover up the vaccine link. In that sense your link to the BBC article is unfortunate, and bears no similarity to our situation. Did no-one here ever say don't believe anything you hear on the BBC?! As for computers, my sons finally managed to get to Uni. (we're obviously a very intelligent family) and the older one went into IT, fixing people's computers. He was given an old one by a customer, and passed it on to me. Both my sons got grants to go to Uni. and I moved to a tiny flat with the younger one(Samuel). At first, we both lived on his student grant and now he works as a self-employed electrician and makes a very modest amount of income (below the level at which he would have to pay tax.) I should get welfare benefits but they were stopped, even Samuel's Child benefit, an allowance which EVERY child is supposed to get until 19 years old, nowadays even children who've never set foot in this country get it! They first stopped our benefits the very same day that I got my diagnosis of M.E. They started it again (temporarily) the day a psychiatrist said it wasn't M.E. it was depression. Do you see where this is going? When I started teaching in school, in 1976, I got such severe hayfever I couldn't teach. I asked the doc for a sick note but she didn't give sicknotes for hayfever. When I got depressed as a result I was given an indefinite sicknote! My hayfever was caused by vaccines!
Our electricity has been cut off because our provider tried to get £3,600 for 2 weeks' gas! We wrote, phoned, emailed, and went to court 30 times, on each occasion they backed down. Until the last time when they were allowed to remove the meter which tells the truth about the reading they'd been lying about. Our side was never heard. The court was totally corrupt. They put in prepayment meters, which enables them to "recoup" money which we dispute. My son being an electrician has made an offgrid system, using solar panels, with generator for backup. In the winter months I haven't been able to spend so much time on the computer, especially last winter, before we got the generator. Being autistic makes it particularly difficult to deal with these things, as people here should be able to understand.
My story is much bigger than this. Personally, i find it strange that people who claim to have severely disabled children have so much time and money as many contributers on AoA seem to. I dont mean to be unkind, but that's looking at the questions you raise from the opposite point of view. I know our story sounds crazy, but then a lot of people think saying vaccines cause autism is crazy don't they? If doctors can be murdered and all the media can be corrupted etc,. is my story so surprising?
I'm very glad to have a discussion, but to be honest I've been treated very badly by many people on here. I would gladly have given whatever support I can to the cause, but support has to be a reciprocal thing, and I have very little capacity. Our life is hugely time consuming, having to do everything for ourselves. We buy anything we need second hand, and make as much for ourselves as we can. (We certainly don't look anything like the family in the BBC article!) Thanks again for reaching out to us. I hope this answers some of your questions.

Hi Samuel Green,
Thanks for coming here. You are right that no group of people should be singled out as violent; not all neurotypical people, or people with autism, or people with red hair, or people with brown or blue eyes, are prone to violent killing. We are all individuals,and neither a diagnosis nor our hair color means that we as individuals will cause or have a tendency to violence. Subsets of each of these groups can be violent.
I am glad you are helping your Mum.

I was just reading this article here
http://www.bbc.com/news/stories-42951788

We over the internet don't know enough to understand what is happening to your family or why.
As we only get snippets of information it does not always make sense to us. Can people be persecuted or hounded? Yes, though normally only within a small community where maybe they are considered outcasts or undesirables. Police collusion? again, normally only in small communities.

Here is the U.S., owning a computer is a luxury item, and requires access to electricity. Owning or renting a house requires income both for paying taxes, and a whole lot of proof of income before you can even rent. Here, to get into a house, even to be chased out again, requires money, unless you are squatting in which case yes, eventually the police may remove you.

Most of our small cities and towns have places for free food ( foodbanks and soup kitchens) and often though not always places where people can get showers ( public swimming pools, homeless shelters etc) and here, homeless shelters can provide some support in finding housing etc.
That doesn't mean there aren't people living on the street; there are. But they mostly don't have access to computers. It may be there are reasons that explain why things have happened to your family, and because of that we don't understand. Regardless of your families situation, you are all in my prayers ( and I would be grateful for any prayers sent my way too; chronic health problems really being hard to handle right now.)

As Grace Green's son, I can attest to our experiences: hounded out of several homes, repeatedly cheated financially, received death threats, vandalism etc. And these are just the first things that come to mind; just part of the daily persecution we receive, all with at least the approval of police and courts etc.

As a side note, I do think it's inappropriate and dangerous for anyone to start saying that people belonging to any particular group, whether they have a particular disability or are of a particular race or whatever, are more prone to violence than anyone else.

I don't want to get into an endless wrangle with anyone on here, this is just my pennyworth for folks to have a think about.

Grace,

This was your sentence: "Cia, I just can't believe the way you and your daughter's "the rapist" treated her." A correct sentence in light of what you have explained would have been "you and your daughter's speech therapist, whom I consider to be a rapist." I didn't understand your attempted expression because it's totally unbalanced to say that because she playfully said "Where's C? Did she not come today?" , expecting her to pop out from behind the bookcase laughing and say "Here I am!" , this was clearly a gross violation of her personal space, and, because you're somewhat over the top in your expression, you consider playfulness toward an autist to be clearly rape. Then you said: "My original sentence about the therapist was grammatical if read as "therapist" showing that was my real meaning!" That is also ungrammatical. You appear to mean "my sentence about the therapist was grammatical if it were read 'the speech therapist, the rapist,' then my real meaning would have be evident.

But calling the speech therapist a rapist is clearly beyond to bounds of sane discourse. My daughter is obsessed with the daughter of a friend of mine. She hasn't seen her in six years and she no longer lives here. But she's found many photos of her on the Internet from her many accomplishments in high school, and many in my photograph albums. She has copies of them in her room and in the room where she sleeps on respite weekends with her beloved teacher. A couple of months ago, I was talking on the phone to my neighbor, and she asked how the girl was doing in med school. And I said, "Oh, Pari is doing fine, she likes her courses and likes living in Chicago," when my daughter came into the kitchen sobbing and screaming "No! You said the name I've told you NOT to say!" I am forbidden from ever saying the name Pari at peril of major breakdowns. By your reasoning, if that's the correct word to be used for what you do, my daughter raped ME by her violent outburst and attempts to control my behavior. Are you going to say that autists have free rein to say whatever they want and everyone else has to humor them, and avoid saying any word they object to, and if they don't they are rapists?

Is that the sort of "reasoning" you have used to tell yourself that you and your family have been violently and aggressively abused? They use one trigger word and in your eyes they become a terrorist? Do you not realize how unbalanced that is?

A number of autistic people have come out screaming and actually killing. That was what I was referring to. My daughter has only expressed the desire to kill me, many times, and I've never said otherwise. But if I were to use your offensive hyperbole, I could say she's raped, tortured, and killed me because she's autistic. I'm sure they have welfare programs in the UK for those unable to provide for themselves. You said "But, yes, it includes rape, torture, run out of town umpteen times and another attempt being made at present,enslaved - yes, of course we're supporting the ruling class, and you didn't include defrauded, vandalized, refused public services and I could go on." If any of the crimes you mentioned were true, you should have gone to the police and taken action in court. You said it was all BECAUSE you were Asperger's. Can you elaborate, making a clear distinction showing that it was because you are Asperger's and not because you're poor? Run out of town umpteen times? How? The police have come to your house and forced everyone in your family to hit the road? Or was it for failure to pay rent? You know as well as I do that in developed countries, no one is going to force you out of town because you have Asperger's. And enslaved because you're forced to support the ruling class? Meaning you're expected to pay taxes? That's silly, all of us have to pay taxes. How could our societies operate otherwise? How do you have a computer if you're cut off from public services?

Cia, seeing as you raise pacifism, I want to make it clear that I have never advocated violence in any instance. I should explain that pacifism thinks that all violence is wrong and therefore does not take sides. It does not mean allowing others to do our fighting for us. To use your example of WW2, Quakers among others sought to alleviate the dire poverty that Germany was experiencing as a result of the sanctions imposed on it by the allies following WW1. If others had taken the same attitude many believe that Hitler, and WW2, might never have happened. That's what pacifism does - avoids conflict by applying human compassion.
On the subject of education, I could answer the question posed on another thread on this same topic, "What's happened to American children?" From over here it looks as if American education is very intense and dogmatic. There's a lot more pressure on kids to achieve certain goals than there is here in the UK. Even home education has to follow a compulsory curriculum whereas here we can create one to suit our own kids, or let them decide their own! If for example, you were to give C. several different ways of looking at WW2, such as I've given above, she might feel less of a need to become independent in order to explore other views. The combination of an autistic parent unable to see more than one point of view, and a teenager needing to explore her own beliefs, would probably lead to conflict in my opinion. And I think parents bare more of the responsibility than their children for outcomes.

Cia, If you don't wish to understand me that says a lot about you, and why we're having this problem.
It's interesting you say you'd no choice but to "joke" at C's expense or be rude to the therapist. This is typical of autistic people - we find it hard to contradict strangers and can end up treating family with contempt instead. I disagree that you and the therapist were not at fault. I consider your behaviour rude or worse.
My original sentence about the therapist was grammatical if read as "therapist" showing that was my real meaning!
The ways in which I and my family have been persecuted are demonstrated in thousands of documents which clearly I can't publish here. But, yes, it includes rape, torture, run out of town umpteen times and another attempt being made at present,enslaved - yes, of course we're supporting the ruling class, and you didn't include defrauded, vandalized, refused public services and I could go on. And I'm not the only Aspie to complain of daily abuse. Murdered - no - it was you who said, "If [an autistic person] comes out screaming and kills you....." implying that C had actually killed you. So it's you who are being dramatic!
You can use damage to mean injury (unlike most people here) but you misquoted me (again) and I've a right to explain myself.
I don't agree with your understanding of your religion. You don't appear to think that your God will have anything to criticize in you.
My reply to Aimee was not intended to offend. Indeed she specifically challenged me to name treatments for autism. But it was you who asked "How could they effectively treat brain damage", so my "Scroll down" was primarily addressed to you!

When someone is sick with infection, we understand (by-and-large) when they want to check out, rest. We try to give them time, added attention, nurturing to help shore them up for the healing process, etc.

When someone is rendered chronically ill with a chronically active immune system against something innate, probably prolonged by pollution or infection that a body may be trying to rid, too often without success, or not successful enough to make a difference against what keeps coming in, we somewhat soon come to want a pill or therapy to fix it, and we want to see that person get back to acting well, "normal" shortly. We understandably do not want to spend a chronically long time in sickness nursing mode with that person (for the part of most, not without a paycheck anyway) especially if it doesn't seem to make a difference, and we don't want to see that's what a person chronically unwell, in addition to actual healing, craves, maybe truly needs to keep functioning, lots of attention that doesn't make much of a difference, or ...a more fundamental change in something societal we're a part of (most of us here see that aspect)...

It's like we as a society do not want to stare in the face the actual potential for emotional well-being to be shut down for years, maybe a lifetime, in a moment's (or a few injections') work. I think it's a potential that might even make some, despite the spectre of disease, consider allowing infections to "run rampant" (not that I think they would run rampant) to avoid inducing chronic illness via vaccination and some other practices... I want to believe that, if these occasional outcomes were fully understood to be a consequence anyway (but since we're taking quite a long time to get a societal clue, maybe not).

But when whatever the cause of chronic unwellness also impacts the ability to communicate and interact with people and possibly even impacts the ability to experience and reciprocate whatever it is socially that so many obviously seek and expect to receive ... there are further complications of unfulfilled needs and expectations ... and painful mystifications...sometimes it just appears there are a double standards or an impossible standard...and then there is strong temptation to stop even trying to get along and meet expectations...

It helped me to not feel so much like those around me were failing me to understand some of what I'm actually physically dealing with and the probable causes (though that's brought a new level of perpetration in ignorance and otherwise to fathom, but it's stopped the unanswered "what's wrong with me?" questioning over and over most of the time and the resorting to "it must be YOUR fault" or some other life failing's fault), ... it doesn't change the frequent feelings for a need for a change: change in location, change in relationships, change of life's work...it's a sort of a lifetime of "mid-life crises" with the spectre potential always that things might become more of a crisis... one cannot easily build up good memories to associate with surrounding people and places when one feels bad, or threatened with feeling bad much of the time... expectations of ethical and understanding behaviors are important, experience with life and oneself it might help manage oneself, knowledge of why has brought in some remediation through alternative health approaches, but there are periods where the bad intensifies to a new level beyond knowledge of how to endure (without prayer for me).

I hurt when people hurt, and right now I don't exactly want to stop hurting that way--it sometimes feels like the only aspect of humanity not compromised (possibly amplified) by the pollutions I cannot or at least have not succeeded to clear--but I want things to be better SHORTLY for everyone, my daughters particularly, and lately it feels like about all I can do is pray ...so I pray for all you guys, for miracles for all of us! and I keep trying, I hope not entirely futilely, reaching out online, trying to increase understanding of our plight and the causes, hoping that a broader understanding will lead to improved truly healing "healthcare" and less harm, less facilitation of harm...I send my "discretionary" income to various groups trying to bring about this ... and I'm learning (I hope) to exercise the power of faith...

and I know some of us need nothing short of miracles this very moment... so I pray for you especially...

hey all;
Over the years of coming here, I have come to consider this site a bit like an online family; and I respect and care about both of you, Cia and Grace.
You both have aspergers, and you both have bits of the puzzle to share. And you are both going through some very difficult times in different ways.
You both don't see eye to eye on this because you are coming from very different situations.
Grace is upset because she knows that kind of cruelty is not in her nature, so she doesn't understand how it could be in someone else with the same diagnosis. She is also , from what she has said in the past, used to people being cruel and making jokes she can't get, so that is a trigger for her.
Cia is broken down with health problems and a daughter who she makes huge sacrifices for, but who doesn't seem to like her or be kind to her at all. (And you can be kind to someone and still have autism.) Beyond the therapists who help her care for her daughter, it doesn't sound as if she has anyone much in her life who is being kind to her or supporting her, and from what Grace said, it doesn't sound as if she has anyone much looking out for her either. You both have religious beliefs, so if it is ok to add in mine; take a breath,send a bit of love/kindness each others way, and go have a nice cup of tea/piece of chocolate/warm bath/ insert comforting and relaxing thing here. You both deserve it.

Grace,

How insulting to Aimee to act as though she had never heard of alternative treatments for autism? She said that they had tried many of them, and that there had been improvement, but that her son at 28 was still extremely impaired and would never have anything approaching a normal life. That's reality. Very few autists can be treated so as to become normal enough to live independently and happily. How condescending of you to act as though she just had not discovered the treatment which would repair her son's brain damage.

How many stroke victims can be rehabilitated so that they can move, speak, and reason as well as they did before the stroke? Very few.

Hera, I, too, have frequently said that I have Aspergers. I think that's the whole point. For Cia's daughter's therapist to have behaved in such a way betrays a complete lack of understanding of us autistic people and how to treat us. If this is the limit of "autism advocates'" understanding then no wonder autistic kids sometimes rebel! I've also repeatedly described on here how I and my family have been violently persecuted and abused because of being autistic, and I've received little sympathy. Yet "autism moms" are constantly telling each other what wonderful parents they are, and us victims can see a different reality. Your last sentence makes sense - yes, all of those. We need to start talking and listening!

Friends of friend,
That's an interesting story you related. I also think that children who are autistic because of vaccine injury are subject to all the other variations in life that everyone else is. So each person's resulting personality/problems is a result of multiple factors, and it can't all be blamed on the autism. Some of us adult autistic people who contribute to the conversation here might be gently trying to suggest that we can't deal with massive pressures, social, educational and others. Just because your child is autistic doesn't make you automatically the perfect parent. I speak as an adult Aspie from a family of Aspies. And I don't mean to address this comment to any individual but just throw it into the general discussion.

Cia, I'm afraid I find it hard to understand you. There is definitely a difference between brain damage and brain injury as many others here have described, and I notice some, like Laura Hayes, are careful always to use the latter. The incident with the therapist really astonishes me. You were both acting as if your daughter wasn't there, didn't exist. Isn't that similar to wishing her dead? It's not a joke, it's extremely rude and disrespectful. I'm 64 years old and I've never heard anyone in the UK behaving in that way. The spelling of therapist as "the rapist" is a quote from an American feminist whose name I can't remember, and it refers to the process of therapy which some, including myself, don't approve of. I clearly didn't use the expression to refer to yourself, which as a linguist will be apparent to you. You've spent a great deal of time recently describing your daughter's problems, and I'm very sorry for you BOTH. I know in families full of autistic people tensions can run high. I wonder if your daughter's comments might be her idea of metaphor? She may have heard people saying "I could kill you" and not really meaning it. ( BTW I also didn't say I thought you should die. Your comments to me could be seen as paranoid.) As a Quaker, I think your "hellfire and damnation" threats to your daughter could be very damaging to her, and are astonishingly old-fashioned. Do even Catholics still think like that? Has anyone tried asking her why she feels so angry towards you, and get her to talk about it? It sounds as if she is trying to express something and is feeling she won't get listened to without being dramatic. I know young autistic people long for independence without fully understanding the implications of it. It might be better to discuss how independence would work for her instead of threatening her with damnation. Or ask her how she would feel if others said things like that to her? I don't know how to respond to the rest of your comments as you seem to be full of anger, and are reading things that I haven't written, like I'm supposed to have said you deserve to die. I said I could understand why your daughter is angry. You said I wrote that it was understandable if an autistic person came out screaming and killed you. But, your daughter hasn't killed you. Might you be out of touch with reality?

John,

I thought the same. That we don't know what it was, how long he took it, when he stopped taking it, how it affected him while he was on it, why he stopped taking it, and how he felt while in withdrawal from the drug, if that's what it was. I'm sure it wasn't a supervised going off it. There's a lot that I'm sure we'll never know. I was reading yesterday in Dr. Sears' The Autism Book about his rare, cautious use of psychotropic medications. He says they're step three, when nothing else works, and he talks about five classes, side effects, and so on. My uncle was on Thorazine, it made him grossly obese and very calm. Even if hypothetically a medication were the only thing standing between a person and murder, if he didn't want to do the responsible thing independently, I don't know how you could force him until he committed a crime. I read that people are saying that the death penalty was made for cases like this. I assume he knew he would get the death penalty and didn't care. I also saw a kid interviewed who had been a classmate, and when they asked why students didn't reach out to include him, he said You didn't know him. And that's a good point. Does anyone have an ethical obligation to endanger himself in order to try to include an obviously disturbed person, if it's not your job? I wonder how he's passing the time, how he feels, what he thinks about. The woman whose family took him in because their son asked them to says that she was at the site afterwards and saw them taking Nick away. She shouted Why? And he said Sorry.

I just saw an ABC report that said that Cruz had been taking psychotropic medication, but had stopped. I think we should consider that it's possible that if he had stayed on them, he wouldn't have killed. But I know that we'll never know. His attorney wanted to confess to the murders in exchange for life in prison, but it was refused. The state is going for the death penalty. I'd better not give my opinion on that here.

@Cia -

I am sorry for your daughter's hostility. Her statements must be so painful to hear. You are an amazing mom - as are all the moms (and dads!) on this site. I know that you have and would do anything you could to help your daughter.

You mentioned that until she was ten she was sweet. I don't have an answer for you about what changed with her, but I know the hormone changes are very difficult for our kids. I don't know if it helps, but we went through an absolutely horrible period with my son in adolescence - aggression, self-injury, property destruction, yelling and screaming. At 28 now he is much calmer. I hope that happens for you. He still does say sometimes "I want to bite you" or "I want to hit you" - but it's more rote - doesn't have the same level of intensity (or action) behind it.

Like you, I've thought about all that my husband and I have done for our son, the sacrifices we've made, the impact on his sister. The progress has been so slow. Sometimes it feels like there's nothing left of me to give - to him or anyone else. Sometimes I'm angry, sometimes I'm sad, sometimes I'm grateful he's not worse (and I've seen worse - with him and others)

Wishing you well.

Grace,

Are you calling me or my daughter's language therapist and autism advocate rapists? This is extremely insulting and not something any normal human being would do. Once autists are institutionalized to protect them from the slings and arrows of normal human exchanges, I can guarantee you that they will simply be isolated. Fed, housed, and nothing else.

Grace,

I think what you said is extremely offensive. You seem to be saying that if someone kids around with an autistic person, saying Where is he? when you really know where he is, then if he comes out screaming and kills you, that that's completely understandable and justified. Because we ALL know that autists just don't understand jokes, and anyone who jokes with them deserves to die. So what happened to the calls to be inclusive, and include them in our social circles and culture? I'm sure you realize that if they are THAT sensitive, then they CANNOT be included in our society.

@Grace - "I didn't say "brain damaged" I said "brain injured". There's an important difference. If you search the subject on-line you'll find a wealth of alternative treatments to reverse the effects of vaccine injury."

We have been trying for 25 years to reverse our son's vaccine injury using treatments from the conventional to the alternative to the downright fringe. We've tried everything. Progress, yes. Cure, no. Reversal, well sort of, somewhat. So when you say "there are a wealth of alternative treatments to reverse the effects of vaccine injury" I'd love to know which treatments you are referring to. And how many vaccine injured kids have had their injuries reversed?

Regarding the debate between "injury" and "damage" - it may just be a matter of degree. Perhaps one can recover (fully or partially) from an injury, whereas damage is more severe and long lasting. At least, that's how I define the difference.

Cia, I just can't believe the way you and your daughter's "the rapist" treated her. We autistic people are literal in our understandings. It's common knowledge that we often don't get jokes. I begin to understand why your daughter feels the way you say she does. I think you should feel extremely embarrassed about what you did.

Jonathan, I thought you were making the point that autistic people are more prone to violence than neuro-typical people. I very much disagree with that. See my comment to Cia above. As for the other offenses, I'm certain that we are not capable of working out complex crimes. those you mention like petty theft are known by researchers like Uta Frith to represent our inability to understand what we're doing. Stealing food could even fit into the problem of gut disorders and the inability to say that we're hungry! I think autistic people need much more understanding and less condemnation.

I just saw this.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/02/18/floria-shooter-monster-living-under-our-roof/349197002/

The couple who took him in after his mom died said his gun was locked up, and they thought, mistakenly, that they were the only ones who had a key. They said he loved their two dogs and six cats. They had thought he was getting happier.

There certainly were multiple red flags with Nicholas Cruz. I wonder what will come to light about his parents? Perhaps relatives will be able to explain what they tried, when they tried it, what the results were, why more wasn't done. Both are deceased now and cannot speak for themselves. Like Cia, I was very moved by the interview with Adam Lanza's father. I understand that Adam did not want his father in his life, but it did leave Nancy Lanza all alone (and no doubt in despair) in dealing with her son.

There's often not much discussion about parents when things like this happen, other than blame. All parents of autistic children, but particularly those who deal with aggression and self-injury need support. That means empathy and practical, hands-on help (two things that are in extremely short supply). Every autism parent I know has tried desperately to help their child/children and would lay down their lives if it would help. Many have tried everything and don't know what to do. Aggression in autism can be so isolating, and sometimes deadly...as seen by the deaths of parents of Sky Walker, Adam Lanza, Scott Kologi, David Adam Wilson, and Michael Litwornia.

I wonder why there isn't more support for parents of children like this - before these tragedies happen?

Interestingly I recently heard of a couple who are very highly educated in the science field. They pressured their child to the point of mental breakdown and serious rebellion. The child was then labelled as "Aspergers" while most who know the situation feel this is not the case. If there are these kinds of wrongly diagnosed children in the mix, it makes sense to me that especially if they are male, they will act out their rage. Of course they could also be physiological factors but this is an interesting possibility as well.

According to Minnesota Public Radio, “There have been more than 1,600 mass shootings since Sandy Hook in 2012.”
http://live.mprnews.org/Event/What_can_be_done_to_prevent_mass_shootings

Regarding mental health:
Note this statement by Attorney General Jeff Sessions: “We met with, this morning, our Office of Legal Policy, to work with our partners in Health and Human Services, the Department of Education, across this administration, to study the intersection of mental health and criminality and violence and to identify how we can stop people before these heinous crimes occur.”
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/jeff-sessions-says-hell-study-why-mass-shootings-take-place.html

But HHS will not be receptive to any suggestion that its vaccination program is contributing to the neurological damage suffered by an unknown number of the shooters.

Greg.

Again, I would have to say that it may depend on the individual. I have never seen any indication that my autistic daughter felt any distress on seeing another's problem or felt any desire to help. They used to say that that's what autism meant, being confined by the limits of their "self," unable to transcend them.

I think that what they're going to have to do is make available institutions where those who show signs of being dangerous could be confined for as long as was necessary. I don't know who should make the decision as to how long was necessary. On the one hand, there would be outcry because his right to liberty was being violated, on the other, once he DID kill or seriously injure someone, the outcry would be Why did no one keep an eye on him, stop him? They should be humane places, obviously.

How could anyone be constantly vigilant of a potentially dangerous person? It is no one's job to do that, and I'm not sure it would be legal unless they had broken some law. Do you have in mind a police detachment to surveil and follow the individual 24/7? After the Sandy Hook massacre, an article went viral by the mother of an autistic boy who had acted violently on many occasions to her and her other children. The police had been called a number of times. But there was nothing they could do until he killed or seriously injured one of them. Why should families live in fear like this?

Grace,

I support the armed forces of developed countries, who try to deter the malefactors and defend the vulnerable. As I said, we're studying the buildup to WWII now in our homeschooling. I photocopied a picture of Neville Chamberlain yesterday to add to our packet. C has to learn the phrase Munich Agreement and "peace in our time." If the whole world had continued to promote appeasement and never taken on Hitler, what would have been the result? If Israel didn't defend itself constantly, what would happen? Pacifists rely on stronger people to defend them, and if no one does, then what happens?

I agree with Johnathan. We're not talking about sweet defenseless children who are picked on, and that's the only thing which makes some of them become aggressive. Their brain damage damages them in many ways, and many of them show it in violence enacted against innocent people. My daughter's adored, endlessly patient, kind autism teacher from five years ago was attacked by one of her autistic students, who attacked her and caused serious injury to both her knees when he pushed her down and kicked her, and many bruises from his physical attack of her. There's no reason to deny this very serious problem. What do you do with violent, brain-damaged people?

John,

I think you'd have to say that it depended on the individual. And I don't think most typicals would race past a fallen runner without stopping to help him. I think the lack of language is a huge obstacle in the development of empathy: if you haven't had experience in talking to yourself about a situation in which someone is distressed and drawing similarities to oneself, I don't see how you could with little or no language.

I paused for a couple of minutes trying to think if my daughter is ever kind. I don't think she ever is. She likes some people who are cheerful and outgoing and talk to her. She can't say much back to them. But I can't think of any instance of her being kind to them or anyone else. I've suggested she give presents to people she likes for birthdays or Christmas, saying I'd give her money if she could think of something they'd like or saw something in a store, but she's not interested and has never done it. I've suggested she draw a picture to give to me as a present, but she's totally disdainful of that. She's never shown any concern about people or animals we've seen in real life or in a video who are in distress, nor tried to help them. Personally, I think in most autistic people, the brain damage prevents development of the area of putting yourself in someone else's place.

Grace,

How could they effectively treat brain damage? The conventional answer is with dangerous drugs. I think intensive ABA type treatment to establish language circuits in the brain is a better answer, but it's not one that anyone's doing at this time. And Nick Cruz was 19. What do you do with them at that point, when they're legal adults?

But Grace, I agree with you: if autistic kids are violent, it's because they are brain injured, and we should stop doing that to them. That's precisely my point. And yes, autistic people don't often wage war, because their brain injuries render them incapable of joining the armed forces. They're also often incapable of holding down any kind of self-supporting job. And the notion that autistic kids don't commit petty theft or fraud is a myth: yes, they can lie, and stealing food is a very common problem with these children.

John, there's no doubt that gastrointestinal distress among ASD people is a very painful and shamefully neglected problem. It may well explain why autistic kids sometimes bite their moms. But I'm not sure it explains why they commit homicide: something deeper is operating there.

Cia

I don’t think lack of feeling or empathy is core to autism - I am sure it can happen but what we most often see is a failure to read or pick up complex social cues. A mutual friend of ours told the story of a group of young autistic people engaged in a running race where one fell over and the others all stopped to help. Concern was immediate, the race was forgotten, when “neurological-typicals” would have pressed on regardless. This kind naivety is also something I am frequently aware of with autistic people.

Jonathon Rose, your statistics display your prejudices. Here's another way of looking at your hypothetical school of 1000 students. As a slice of society it contains 13 autistic people prone to violence (because they're brain injured, and could be effectively treated if society wasn't trying to cover up the fact that They caused it); 20 non-autistic people who delight in aggressive bullying and will probably become violent criminals. It probably also contains a large number of non-aggressive petty thieves, and fraudsters (something that autistic people really are incapable of). And as a Quaker, here's my "prejudice" ; a large number of men and women who will be applauded for entering the armed forces and go on to kill abroad (something else autistic people would be deemed incapable of.) So you see, we autistic people may see things in a different light from you!

Greg,

The article about Adam Lanza by his father (it went to the New Yorker from Autism Speaks) was very moving. His parents did EVERYTHING possible for him, loving, supportive, helpful, always looking for ways to reach him. I saw a paragraph which mentioned empathy:

"Both autism and psychopathy entail a lack of empathy. Psychologists, though, distinguish between the “cognitive empathy” deficits of autism (difficulty understanding what emotions are, trouble interpreting other people’s nonverbal signs) and the “emotional empathy” deficits of psychopathy (lack of concern about hurting other people, an inability to share their feelings). The subgroup of people with neither kind of empathy appears to be small, but such people may act out their malice in ways that can feel both guileless and brutal."

I disagree. From my experience, I think that the lack of concern about hurting other people and the inability to share their feelings IS core to autism, not just to psychopathy. There are probably ways to develop empathy, I think starting from a lot more attention to building language neural circuits in the brain to come closer to normal development of human emotions. Although language doesn't seem to have been as big a concern with him as with most.

At one point, after going into great detail about all the many things his mom did for him, and descriptions of how he had gone deep into severe psychopathy, it said Maybe his mom should have taken him out more to socialize with others. Jesus Christ (and that's maybe the third time in my life that I have used that as an expletive.) That's right, torture and drag the parents through the mud. Sure, taking him to the mall with a cousin would COMPLETELY have solved the whole problem.

He shot the mom four times. The father says he's 100% certain that if he had been available, Adam would certainly have shot him. It was once for the mom, once for the dad, once for the brother, and once for Adam. I remembered when I read it that at first they thought it was Ryan who had committed the murders, that Adam had taken his brother's ID with him to cast guilt on him. Again, Jesus f- Christ. The father says at the end that he had a dream from the perspective of one of the victims. Adam at the classroom door, arms raised, absolute evil radiating from him. He says that it took him a long time to come to the point he was at now, but he says there's no question now. He wishes that he had never been born. After reading about his childhood, the hikes, the jokes, the t-shirts the father had printed with a witticism of Adam's, the endless search for solutions: he was cheerful and personable until adolescence, it's painful to try to figure out where and when the psychosis became so severe they should have given up and locked him away. But psychosis with canniness and a lot of executive ability to plan and carry out one of the most evil acts in history. I am tortured. I also wish that he had never been born.

They debated on whether to toll the bells 26, 27, or 28 times. 27 if you counted the mother as an innocent victim. After reading that article, I think it's clear that she WAS an innocent victim. I remember that at the time they said that the mom had decided to put him in an institution, and when Adam found out he went berserk. They talked about why did she have guns in the house: the article said they went target shooting with him having read that it was important to try to share the interests of the Asperger's person. The mom didn't seem to have any suspicion of what he turned out to be capable of.

And Peter says that one of Adam's problems was that he was impervious to physical pain. My daughter has also always been very insensitive to physical pain. I don't think physical abdominal pain is always present, and isn't always the reason for the crimes. Just a lot to turn over and think about.

In fact it has been confirmed from a number of sources that Cruz had been diagnosed as autistic:

http://time.com/5164503/nikolas-cruz-cutting-video/

By the way, we often hear that autistic children are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators. That may be true, but to conclude that autism makes you less prone to violence is a gross logical fallacy, simply because the autistic population is far outnumbered by the non-autistic.

To illustrate, let's assume that in a school with 1000 students, 2% (or 20 students) are autistic. I've cited elsewhere a study showing that two-thirds of autistic minors are violent, so here that would amount to 13 violent autistic students. Let's further assume that of the nonautistic students, 2% (or 20) are aggressive bullies, and they attack all 20 of the autistic students, because they're perceived as weird and vulnerable. Then among the autistic students you would find more victims (20) than perpetrators (13), but the likelihood of violent behavior among those autistic students would be vastly greater (67% to 2%).

I'll be glad to "dispute" the comment from Greg, above. Direct, interpersonal "violence", such as an autistic person lashing out at their immediate family/caregivers, is something very different from the type of "violence" that results in mass-casualty school shootings. I've seen no definitive confirmation that Adam Lanza actually *HAD* ASD, much less that he was even alleged to have had.

Bill, I knew my comment would irk some here.  Bill, let's be honest, an autism diagnosis is a lazy label to cover-up vaccine injuries and account for its accompanying stereotypical symptoms.  Buying into such labels and making definitive pronouncements about what an autistic person cannot do, in my opinion, is an hazardous endeavour. Is it so unlikely that an autistic person could be a mass shooter? Is it as Linda explained, 'Most people with autism lack the kind of executive functioning skills necessary to plan and carry out the sort of attack'?  Really?! Temply Grandin and Ari Ne 'eman are high functioning autistic individuals, would anyone suggest that they lack executive functioning in planning and premeditating an act -- speaking generally and not suggesting they could be mass shooters?

Bill, as stated, in recent history we have two individuals that have committed horrendous mass shootings that are suspected of having autism, and I don't see why we should twist ourselves in knots disputing that this is possible.  I also say bullocks to the argument that their diagnosis are just suspicions without confirmation.  With the media's obsession in portraying autism in a positive light do you thing they would leave things 'hanging' if these adolescents weren't really autistic?

Also Bill, yes, you right, I should have mentioned it, I also feel that psych drugs may have played a huge part in this tragedy. But, again, I am opposed to discounting the influence of autism.  It could have been the case that we had an emotionally and socially disturbed young man, and who was already prone to aggression, and the psych drugs that he was on severely aggravated the situation and resulted in the mass shootings.

I agree with Greg and Jonathan. It's just another form of political correctness to insist that autistic people are not violent, and if they are, it's only because they have been bullied or neglected. Do we say the same thing about schizophrenics, who not uncommonly commit acts of physical violence because of directions from a voice in their head? My daughter has never been on any kind of psych drug, yet she expresses the desire to kill and has been very disruptive at school over the years. She has attacked our dog in her playpen a number of times, hitting her with a real bone in the head.

Autism is brain damage. There's no way I could say how much of the violence is within the autist's ability to control, especially since there are so many of them, very few of whom I know personally. But I learned last year that one of the things that vaccine encephalitis destroys in many cases is the ability to follow story lines. It has always distressed me that my daughter can't follow story lines, so is really left out of books, movies, conversation, emotional involvement with news stories, etc. If you can't follow story lines, then you can't put yourself in the place of another person, can't feel compassion or empathy for them. And then, if you feel you have been slighted in any way, it may give rise to the feeling that you have the right to punish that person or that group that neglected you, or failed to appreciate you, or failed to act in some way as you would have liked them to. Not rational, not fair, not mature, but if your brain doesn't work normally, what can you do? What can we do to protect ourselves from this childish revenge-seeking?

A symptom of lead poisoning is anger and impulse control issues. That, coupled with mercury is a pretty volatile combination in a teenager.
It reminds me of the song I was just listening to, “it’s all over now, baby blue.”
“Yonder stands your orphan with his gun,
Shining like a fire in the sun.”
We are reaping a bitter harvest.

I'll be glad to "dispute" the comment from Greg, above. Direct, interpersonal "violence", such as an autistic person lashing out at their immediate family/caregivers, is something very different from the type of "violence" that results in mass-casualty school shootings. I've seen no definitive confirmation that Adam Lanza actually *HAD* ASD, much less that he was even alleged to have had. I DO KNOW that we were told he had several "psychiatric diagnoses", and that he had been given several psych drugs over his short and tragic life. I also know that psychiatry is a pseudoscience, and a drug racket. There's no doubt in my mind, that psych drugs are far less safe, much less effective, and much less necessary that the psychs claim. So I find it odd, and revealing, that Greg fails to mention the psychs and their drugs. Also, the *media* *says* that this latest shooter in Florida, Cruz, *MAY* have had ASD, but I haven't seen that confirmed yet. And I've seen NOTHING yet, about Cruz's psych & psych drug history. The media seems to be leaving some key details out....
As for the BOGUS "Reactive Attachment Disorder", it's just another TAX-FUNDED RESEARCH stream, which is unlikely to produce anything of value. Except research jobs, university departments, PhRMA profits, etc., We all need to remember that the DSM-5 is nothing more than a catalog of billing codes, and all of the diagnostic allegations in it were INVENTED, not discovered, to serve as excuses to maintain stigma, and $ELL DRUG$. Also, any tragedy like this most recent school shooting will provoke strong emotions, and we think least well, and least clearly, when we're emotionally upset. Let's honor our outrage, then clear our heads, and get back to work. But let's also not be distracted from the harms inflicted on our children by a system that's running out of control for profit, at OUR expense....
The lame-stream media is already abuzz with "mental health", and "mental illness", so let's not let them confuse ASD with "mental illness"....
(c)2018, Tom Clancy, Jr., *NON-fiction

Contrast this post with the 2012 post about Adam Lanza reproduced above. Back them we absolutely ruled out any connection between autism and violent behavior. Today we admit (however reluctantly) that autistic young people "may be terribly violent". True, this violence usually doesn't rise to the level of mass murder -- but now, in addition to Adam Lanza, we have the Scott Kologi and Nikolas Cruz cases staring us in the face. Yes, drugs may well be aggravating the violence, but if we don't admit that autism plus drugs can make people violent, doctors will go on prescribing the drugs.

Yes, it is very painful to acknowledge that autism, in addition to all the other burdens it imposes on our children, may also make them violent. But sometimes you have to deal with painful realities. If we don't -- if we tell the media not to talk about the autism-violence connection -- the violence will only get worse and victimize more people, autistic people especially. Olmsted and Blaxill were entirely right to say that our society is now sunk in deep denial about the human costs of autism. Let's not be complicit in that denial.

Reactive attachment disorder doesn't just look like autism, it's another pseudo-psychiatric excuse for the many symptoms of iatrogenic brain injury.