Dachel Media Update: Minister Tony Muhammad Calls on Black Elected Officialst to Oppose SB277
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On Vaccines, Why are Doctors and Legislators Allowing Themselves to Be Used?


HannahBy Ginger Taylor

So here is the basic problem. (Settle in, kids. And send this to your pediatrician and doctor friends if you are ready to call a spade a spade.)

The vaccine program is a disaster, kids are getting hurt, docs don't have to know anything about vaccines and we are left by ourselves to clean up the damage. Readers here know this well. Here is how it breaks down.

You got your one percent vaccine corruption, then you got your ninety nine percent ignorance and most of that is now willful ignorance.

(Seriously, the Polings went on CNN SEVEN YEARS AGO.  To not know about the vaccine encephalopathy=autism discussion as a practicing pediatrician is willful ignorance.)

There are a hand full of corrupt bastards at the top of the vaccine industry (in both the public and private sectors, and the boundarylessness of the “public/private partnership") who have behaved very badly. They have lied about vaccine safety, they have covered up vaccine autism links, they have published phony research, and they have failed to tell the public about true vaccine risks. They are responsible for grievous harm to an entire generation of American Children.

But the thing is, they are actually a very small number of people. We talk about how vastly corrupt the vaccine program is, and it is vastly corrupt, but only the vaccine program “One Percenters” are actually generating the fraud. The rest of them are just propping it up by towing the “you must have 70 doses of 14 vaccines or the world will end,” line.

They are doing it because they are paid to do it, or because they take orders so they can keep working, or because they have been sold a line of bullshit that they are saving the world from “anti-vaxxers” who want to bring back disease, or because they simply don't want to get attacked for going against the flow. But the thing is, no matter why they are doing it, what they are actually doing is shielding Gerberding and DeStefano and Boyle and Yeargin-Allsopp and Insel and Thorsen and Insert RICO Eligible Name Here, from being put under oath and being cross examined under threat of perjury.

I want to scream, “WHY?! WHY ARE YOU ALLOWING YOURSELVES TO BE USED TO KEEP CRIMINALS OUT OF JAIL! WHY ARE YOU ALLOWING YOURSELVES TO BE LIED TO AND USED TO HARM YOUR OWN PATIENTS TO PROTECT THESE MONSTERS!”

The Vaccine One Percenters can't answer our questions... won't answer our questions... won't answer for their behavior... so they keep throwing people in between us and them to delay the inevitable. This most commonly now takes the form of, “Vaccines are safe. If you have questions, ask your pediatrician.” But of course when we ask our pediatricians the real questions, their answers are some version of:

1. I have no idea what you are talking about.

2. Well my choice is to vaccinate, so yours should be too.

3. I know, the program is a mess, but I have to say this crap or they will come after me, so keep this between us.

4. You're fired because you don't take current medical orthodoxy as inherent truth, and I live a fear based life where I throw my power around to avoid things I don't want to deal with.  Consider yourself a bad parent.

And there are also a few true believers that are impenetrable to real world information, and are likely eligible for a diagnosis themselves, like Dr. Pan and Dr. Offit.

Only very rarely to you get people like the doctors Gordon, Sears, Bark, etc that will say, “Yeah... it is a mess.  Make your own choices and I will go to bat for you in public.”

So why, doctors? At this point most of you know that what is being said in public about vaccine safety and efficacy is junk, and many of you resent having to answer for the absurd claims that you are being expected to defend in person to educated parents. So why don't you say enough is enough?

Why are you not as pissed at CDC for lying to you and using you and tricking you into harming... well Hippocrates only knows how many children... as we are for having our children harmed? How in God's name have you been convinced that WE are the ones to be attacked, and not people like DeStefano and Boyle who stay locked in their Ivory Tower and even refuse to be questioned by Congress!

Because at this point, after this year's events, and the new heights that we have soared to in the attack on parents and their very loud response, the only way you can not know that the program is corrupt to the bone is to stick your fingers in your ears. Get your damn fingers out of your ears!

How long is this ridiculousness going to go on? At what point do you start telling your patients in the office, “You know what... you make a great point. I have never heard of the VICP, and I don't know what the hell Vaccine Encephalopathy is. I was told Aluminum and Mercury were safe and not neuron killers. Let's you and I together, right now, call the AAP's head office and ask why they have never told me jack about any of this.  Apparently standard vaccine adverse events have been in place since long before I ever set foot in medical school, and no one ever told me about them or taught me out to diagnose them. I'm mad too.”

When are you going to quit covering AAP/AMA/HRSA/CDC's ass at the expense of your own patients' health, the relationships you have with their parents, your own intellectual integrity and your moral compass? And if your answer is it's because you are so sure that the party line on vaccine safety is true, then why are you not routinely engaging in open forums with parents, research in hand, to be discussed ad nauseam, in open, after hours meetings so that you can be challenged and teach us where we are wrong?!

Why are you not insisting that vaccinated v. unvaccinated research be done, not just once, but constantly!?

Why are you sitting by and letting this bullshit pass for science and truth? You know that there are problems. Do you expect that the cowards who created these lies are going to be the ones to clean them up? No! It is up to you!

If you thought everything was fine, and this whole controversy was actually just being generated by internet rumor, you would be holding discussion groups in coffee houses and parks and on street corners to squash that noise. But you don't. You hide from those discussions. Because you know something is very wrong and you are too scared to deal with the problem with integrity.

As you know, OffitCo. decided to put Maine on their list to infect this year, and had two bills introduced to attack our exemption rights.  So I had to stop doing what I usually do, gather a team to organize Maine, and start to establish a beach head here.  Long story short, The Maine Chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics submitted testimony to the Legislature that showed that they didn't know enough about vaccine injury to know what not to say about vaccine injury. Specifically that they don't know about the VICP.

So I wrote up a list of questions that we had for them, arising from their testimony, which I sent to them. They declined to answer. I was going to leave it at that, but you know me and I have trouble leaving things at “that.” Our exchange:


Subject:  Vaccine questions for the AAP
Date:  Thu, 04 Jun 2015 16:17:03 -0400
From:  Ginger Taylor <ginger@mainevaxchoice.org>
To:  Dee Kerry deHaas <dkerrydehaas@aap.net>

Ms. deHaas,

The Maine Chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics is currently supporting LD 471, a measure that would require parents to have a counseling session with a health care provider, and obtain written confirmation of the session with the health care provider's signature, and file the form with the school system, before a child would be allowed to access their free and appropriate public education after forgoing a vaccine.  The theory behind the measure is that parents need to be educated on vaccines, and have a chance to ask the questions they have about vaccination, before their children should be allowed in school.  The irony of this measure is that the growing distrust of the current vaccine program in the US exists because parents cannot get their questions on vaccines answered.

The Maine AAP is also currently opposing LD 1076, a measure that would, among other things, require your membership to know and use the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program guidelines on vaccine injury.  The reasoning behind this requirement is that since your membership has been given complete liability protection for causing injury and death when administering vaccines, they must, at the very minimum, be required to know and use the guidelines that HRSA has put in place to substitute the litigation process for delivering care and compensation to a child for a vaccine injury.  The irony of your opposition to the bill is that the testimony submitted by your President, Dr. Pelletier, and two of your board members, Dr. Belisle and Dr. Losey, shows that they don't even know of the existance of HRSA's VICP, and have it confused with the CDC's Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System.  VAERS is not even mentioned in LD 1076. 

Your leadership literally didn't even bother to Google "Vaccine Injury Compensation Program" to see what it was before submitting written testimony to the state that impacts the health and education of all Maine children.  After such a bold display of ignorance and lack of interest in vaccine safety, it is difficult to see how your organization can make any assertion that they are working in the interests of children's health and want evidence based information on vaccination to be informing the vaccine debate.

We have submitted testimony, that you can find on our web site, that takes the position that because your organization has not only failed to educated your members on federal vaccine injury guidelines, and because your leadership does not even know about this program themselves, then no pediatrician in Maine can be qualified to either give vaccine counseling nor administer vaccines.

How can one be qualified to vaccinate if one does not even know of the existence of the federal program that is the repository of vaccine risk information in the US?  You can find the write up here:

As you might imagine, we have a number of questions for the Maine Chapter of the AAP arising from your testimony in the recent hearings.  I have attached them, and we believe that your organization has a obligation to answer these questions to all of our members who have used your members vaccination services, and all Mainers who you believe should be legally forced to seek counsel from your members on vaccination before their children can attend school.

The bizarre experience of our membership has been that the American Academy of Pediatrics presents itself a good faith institution who is eager to engage families in vaccine discussions, but that as soon as those discussions turn to serious questions on vaccine injury, the conversation is shut down and families are ignored or attacked.  If the Maine AAP is indeed a good faith organization, so intent on the well being of its patients that it wants to engage in dialog with those wishing to opt out of vaccines, as your support of LD 471 claims, then we first ask that the AAP engage the Maine Coalition for Vaccine Choice on our questions on behalf of more than 600 of these families in Maine.

While this is not a complete list of questions we have for your organization, these questions represent the basic questions that families need answers to in order to begin to believe that the Maine AAP is a good faith organization that wants to partner with parents, not bully them into buying a medical product for their child against their better judgment, or merely be able to bill for a 90460 CPT code.

We look forward to your response.
--
Ginger Taylor, MS
Director
Maine Coalition for Vaccine Choice
207-200-8469

 

Questions for AAP:

In your written testimony on LD 606, you make the unqualified statement that, “Vaccines are safe.” In your oral testimony you made the qualified statement that, “vaccines mostly are safe.” In your 2011 BRIEF AMICI CURIAE OF THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS AND 21 OTHER PHYSICIAN AND PUBLIC HEALTH ORGANIZATIONS IN SUPPORT OF THE RESPONDENT, in the case of Supreme Court case of Bruesewitz v. Wyeth, you advocate that vaccines should not only continued to be considered, “Unavoidably Unsafe,” but you argued that, “Case-by-case consideration of whether vaccines are unavoidably unsafe, on the other hand, would “undoubtedly increase the costs and risks associated with litigation and would undermine a manufacturer’s efforts to estimate and control costs,” this so that you were able continue to enjoy the blanket liability shield you enjoy due to this classification for all vaccines.

How can the AAP argue that vaccines are “unavoidably unsafe” in the Supreme Court in order to convince the federal government to grant you liability protection from vaccine injury, and then argue that, “vaccines are safe,” and “vaccines are mostly safe,” before this committee in order to convince the State of Maine to mandate that families receive counseling/buy vaccines from you?

Are vaccines, “safe,” “mostly safe,” or “unavoidably unsafe?”

How do such widely contradictory statements engender trust in vaccines and in pediatricians?

In your testimony on LD 606, you have made the unqualified statement that, “vaccines are effective.” Yet vaccine package inserts report varying degrees of efficacy for each product, and CDC reports that vaccines for pertussis and flu can have a relatively high failure rate.

How do you reconcile these statements?

How do such arguments engender trust in vaccines and pediatricians?

In your testimony on LD 606, you have made the unqualified statement that, “vaccination saves lives and money.

Can you please submit data to the committee the cost/benefit analysis to support this supposition, that includes costs incurred due to vaccine adverse events?

In your testimony on LD 606, in your discussion on measles vaccine, you have made the statement that, “...think it causes autism, which it doesn't. There was a corrupt researcher who published this association from faked data that he later retracted in disgrace.” Can you please supply the committee with the original source documents for these claims:
1. The statement made in the research claiming that the measles vaccine causes autism
2. The source of the judgment that the data used in the paper was “fake.”
3. The retraction statement issued by the researcher in question.

In your testimony you argue that families should be mandated to purchase vaccines from you and administer them to their children because, “they are recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics.” How is the argument that Maine should push families into your services because you recommend them one that will engender trust in vaccines or the AAP?

In your testimony in opposition to LD 1076, you make the statement that, “The Federal Vaccine Injury Program provides appropriate venue for reporting and tracking vaccine related side effects.”

In fact there is no “Federal Vaccine Injury Program” in the United States. There is a Vaccine Injury Compensation Program to compensate vaccine injury victims, but it does not, as you suggest, “track vaccine related side effects.” There is a program that does track vaccine related side effects, but it is called the Vaccine Adverse Reporting Events System. That program is not discussed in LD 1076.

LD 1076 would mandate that all AAP physicians be educated on the VICP, its table of injuries and how to help vaccine injury victims attain the needed medical evaluations so that they can access that program successfully in the event of a vaccine injury.

Doesn't the fact that the Maine AAP is not able to differentiate between VICP and VAERS in responding to this committee when opposing a bill on educating them on the VICP speak to the urgent need for legislation that educates AAP on the VICP?

What is the actual vaccine injury rate in Maine?

How many serious adverse reactions occur each year in Maine, and what is the approximate cost to the state for them? Please give us any information you have on short term medical care v. long term disability cases.

Please forward any data you have on how many vaccine deaths have occurred in Maine since the VICP and VAERS programs were established. Individual case reports would be helpful if you have them.

Of those reporting an injury, what percentage are your doctors diagnosing with a vaccine injury, what percentage end up being compensated by the VICP?

What does the AAP do to inform their members about newly ruled on vaccine injuries that are coming out of the VICP?

Parents have testified before the committee that their children are suffering vaccine adverse reactions and that they cannot get their pediatricians to assess and treat these children according to federal guidelines, nor are they able to find doctors to testify for them so that they can get these cases compensated in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. What resources are available to these families?

Does Maine AAP oppose listing the VICP information and table in the Maine CDC Immunization Program Provider Reference Manual? If so, why?

Please list the AAP pediatricians in Maine who specialize in assessing and diagnosing various vaccine injuries, and who testify for families in the VICP.

What training and direction does AAP give their physicians on assessing and diagnosing vaccine injury, and then testifying on behalf of their vaccine injured patients in the VICP?

When a child presents with the symptoms of vaccine encephalopathy, per the VICP table, in the days or weeks following a pertussis or measles containing vaccine, what is the process by which a Maine pediatrician determines if the symptoms are caused by the vaccine or merely a temporal association? Please attach research and educational materials.

The Pace Environmental Law Review paper “Unanswered Questions from the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program: A Review of Compensated Cases of Vaccine-Induced Brain Injury,” has established that there is an overlap in the compensated cases of vaccine encephalopathy and an autism diagnosis. What is the AAP doing to re evaluate children with a diagnosis of autism, who also meet the VICP table description of encephalopathy, to assure that these children have not been missed and are not continuing to suffer from medical neglect for these associated medical conditions such as chronic brain inflammation?

You have stated that you “feel badly for those families that think that their children have suffered side effects,” implying that they merely believe that their children have adverse reactions, but they may not. Is it not the job of AAP pediatricians to perform medical assessments on these children to make that determination? What is the Maine AAP doing in response to these families reports of medical neglect because of the failure of pediatricians to perform proper assessments for established VICP table injuries? Have you contacted the families or the Maine Coalition for Vaccine Choice who brought LD 1076 forward to see if they have availed themselves of the programs that you believe that this bill already provides (making LD 1076 redundant?)

What is the Maine AAP's position on patients being kicked out of medical practices for refusing vaccines?

Your testimony recognized that parents are concerned about multiple vaccines administered at once, but you testified that when many vaccines are given together they “boost is higher when that is done.” Can you please provide the committee with the safety and efficacy data surrounding your recommendation to administer Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, HIB, Polio, Hepatitis B, Rotavirus and Pneumococcal vaccines simultaneously to all two month old infants?

We have heard testimony from Dr. Suzanne Humphries that she spent a year at Eastern Maine Medical Center simply trying to get data that showed that the policy of vaccinating her patients in the first 12 hours was safe, and eventually quit the hospital because she was retaliated against for attempting to provide science based medical care. What is the AAP doing to protect pediatricians in Maine who are not satisfied with the gaps in vaccine safety and efficacy data who are asking challenging questions of medical authorities on vaccine safety, and want to practice the precautionary principle in populations lacking data so that they “first do no harm?”

You stated that we have an obligation to protect each other from communicable disease. What is the AAP's position on protecting children from vaccine adverse reactions?

 

Subject: Re: Vaccine questions for the AAP
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 22:12:33 -0400
From: Dee Kerry deHaas - MAAP <dkerry2014@gmail.com>
To: Ginger Taylor <ginger@mainevaxchoice.org>

Ms. Taylor,

On behalf of the Maine AAP, I acknowledge receipt of your email and list of questions.  I understand that our organizations have different perspectives in the vaccine debate.  Each perspective has been aired in the legislative hearings and sessions with regard to these vaccine bills in the First Regular Session of the 127th Maine Legislature.  

I respectfully decline to respond to your list of proposed questions or to continue the debate with you through electronic correspondence or social media. 


Dee deHaas
Executive Director
American Academy of Pediatrics, Maine Chapter

 

I let it go, and just added it to my ten year pile of " we don't have to answer you so we're not gonna, leave us alone" emails.  And then after a week I just had to go back to it because it bothered me so much.


Subject: Re: Vaccine questions for the AAP
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:58:31 -0400
From: Ginger Taylor <ginger@mainevaxchoice.org>
To: Dee Kerry deHaas - MAAP <dkerry2014@gmail.com>


Ms. DeHaas,

For the last week or so I have been trying to process this email from you in light of your public support of LD 471.  I had not planned to respond, but to simply write a piece pointing out the bizarre position you are taking in declining to answer our questions.  But honestly, this is just absurd, I really feel the need to point this out to you and ask you again to engage with us on these questions.

You are supporting a bill to legally force parents of children using the philosophical exemption to have a discussion with their pediatrician, one of your members, about vaccinations before their children can go to school.  The theory behind this bill is that parents are uninformed on vaccination risks and benefits and should become informed on these matters by one of your members. 

I am one of these supposedly uninformed parents. 

I have attempted these discussions with my pediatrician, in fact several of them over the years... again... these are your members... and cannot get the evidence based information that I am asking for that you claim exists.  So for the last several years, I sit quietly when the nurse gives the vaccine pitch, say a polite, "No thank you." and then decline to sign anything.  But now you want legally mandate that I have the conversation that I have stopped punishing my pediatricians and nurses with years ago.

So I am now coming directly to you, as you have asked the State of Maine to mandate me to do, as a parent who wants my questions answered.  And you have refused to engage me and answer my questions.

To emphasize, re-frame and sum up... you personally want to legally force the members my organization (and me) to pay the members of your organization money to give them information that you are refusing to give me personally now.  See how that is a bit problematic?

How can you possibly hold the position that you want open discussion on vaccine issues between our two groups, when you flat out refuse to engage our group on some very legitimate questions?

How can you possibly hold the position that you have no obligation to engage me personally, when you are trying to pass a bill legally forcing me personally to engage with your members?

If this bill passes, your membership will suddenly have to deal with a large number of parents walking into practices with this list of questions in hand, and lots of other documents that we will be preparing for them, to ask their individual pediatricians to answer them.  What is your plan for preparing those pediatricians on how to deal with those conversations, that you personally are unwilling to have?  Will your guidance be for them to tell the families, "I respectfully decline to respond to your questions?"  Have you heard the adage about leaders never asking anything of their group members that they would not do themselves?  How fun is that going to be for doctors to have our well prepared members ask them questions that you don't have the answers to give them?  How suspicious do you think that patients will begin to become of their doctors who can't answer their questions?

Or will you be proposing amendments that require the parent to sit in silence while they are lectured?

Are your members actually in favor of being forced to have these conversations?

If you and your organization don't want to deal with the growing list of vaccine safety and corruption issues that are making parents so upset, then why are you supporting a bill that mandates that your members answer parents questions on them?

Have you really thought this bill through?

Ginger Taylor, MS
Director
Maine Coalition for Vaccine Choice
207-200-8469


I probably should have asked her to let me know what the acceptable list of questions will be for us to ask our doctors when we are forced into these appointment where we are supposed to ask questions of our doctors. Not that it would matter, because communicating with me is apparently beneath her.

So, why?

Why is Maine AAP not jumping at the chance to educate us? They are going to the trouble to launch a political campaign to force educate us, while running from educating us.

Because they know this is bullshit. Kerry deHaas knows this is bullshit.

So why are they not pushing back against big AAP and CDC for expecting them to shovel the Vaccine One Percenters bullshit? Why didn't she just forward the email to big AAP and CC me and say, “Hey Dr. Hassink, there is a parent here, with a whole group of concerned parents behind her, that have questions I can't answer. Can you give her a response on these? Thanks. And Ginger, when those come in, let's have coffee and talk about it.”

Why does Kerry not put the burden back where it belongs, on Sandra. And if Sandra can't answer it, they why is Sandra still President of the AAP?

Well the answer really is because the parents are not the customers. Parents don't matter to the AAP. Health outcomes don't matter to the AAP. Corporations are the customers of the AAP. They pay the bills, not parents.

I have been ending my blogs for years calling for wise pediatricians to rise up and take back their profession. So I will flat out say this to them again... are you not sick of looking like an idiot in your office to your patients? Are you tired of getting blindsided by the smart ones who bring you research that the AAP and the rest of MediCo has never mentioned or kept from you? How long do you plan on having to defend the moronic things that Paul Offit teaches you to say?

Because while you might actually care about being able to have a defensible position on vaccination, Offit and DeStefano and crew don't have to. They never allow anyone into a position to question them. They send you out into battle with guns that don't work, and they don't care, because they never enter the line of fire themselves. You sick of being their cannon fodder yet?

When is enough going to be enough? Are you enjoying this battle against the parents of sick, disabled children? Are you still able to maintain the suspension of disbelief and pretend that the vaccine you administered didn't cause that child's seizure when the parent brought you both the VICP guidelines and the package insert that says that they do? How about when the family was eventually awarded compensation by the feds for vaccine induced seizures? Still able to look parents in the eye and say, “Your child's neurological symptoms are just a coincidence.” while you fail to even do a basic eval to see if the vaccine might be involved?

And legislators who are diving this attack... seriously! What is it that you are protecting? Are you just all about pharma checks and power dinners? You guys cannot be this sleazy... well not all of you. And the Democrats... that I don't get. Democrats attacking the families of disabled children... well that is a whole other blog in itself.

So to sum up, the exemption attack that took place in 17 states only survived in 2 states in which legislators were willing to lie, cheat and steal. Which oddly gives me a bit of confidence in our political system (something I never thought I would say.)

Look... doctors and politicians. The current disaster of a vaccine program is falling apart fast. Stop propping it up. You don't have to do much. All you have to do is stop participating in their vaccine promotional circus, stop the arm twisting in offices, stop firing patients, stop requiring them to sign self-incriminating forms, stop letting them try to sell you the idea that vaccinating all kids according to the CDC recommended avalanche makes you Jesus, and stop backing bills that attack families.

The next time you are approached, do what we teach parents to do when they feel like they are being bullied into vaccinating and don't want to deal with their pushy sales pitch. We tell them to say a polite, “No, thank you.” And if the pushers persist, we encourage them to again say a polite, Thanks, but no thanks, and then if the pushers still don't stop and the family starts to feel bad, we encourage them to say, “This is making me uncomfortable, let's move on to what we are here to discuss,” and then move on to the reason they are really there.  Try it.

Doctors, if you feel bullied into becoming a vaccine bully, say a polite, “ No thank you,” and if they persist, say, “Yeah, I can't get really get away with that in my work,” and then move on to the topic you want to discuss with them.  That is just setting good boundaries.

The criminal behavior that has destroyed the National Immunization Program, the lack of accountability that has allowed it to continue is out in the open,  and the events of this year have only opened up more courts to us. The nightmare experiment of liability free vaccines is coming to an end. Just step back and let it happen.

Vaccination is not going to go away, the 1918 flu is not going to return, this country was just fine before the liability protection existed and it will be just fine when it goes away.

Let DeStefano and Boyle take their perp walk, let the system collapse and be reformed and reballanced, and start worrying about the individual health of your patients.

Stop letting you selves be used by the monsters that have made hundreds of thousands of children sick.

Free yourselves.

 

Comments

@VaccInformation

As someone at the Bee commented, it will be interesting to expose what money Pan may have taken under the table, never mind the 95 grand mentioned. Someone had the audacity to call Mel Dorey a harasser of sorts when in fact there were "skeptics" charged with stalking her and sending vile and threatening messages to her home. Those people will stop at nothing in their endless vaccine agenda.

VaccineInformation

I wonder if Ben has read this evaluation of pharma
http://www.pharmamyths.net/files/JLME_ARTICLE_2013.pdf

Sacramento Bee decides to come clean now??
greyone

Just had a conversation with my fed congressman staff about hr 2232, which was referred to house committee of energy and commerce.As his staffer explained it he claimed to believe in parental vaccine choice, but also felt schools should have the right to "limit participation".
The political slip and slide of saying one thing but meaning another.

Hera

Ben; I too appreciate your courtesy. So far,if you are interested in a dialog, you have been given a lot of information to respond to.
Cia parker wrote a great and highly detailed response.
And Linda1's heartbreaking 230 Youtube videos are a chance for you to hear about vaccine injuries first hand.
By the way, re your previous comment on medical exemptions, in practice unless the person is on chemo, medical exemption seem non existent.
In fact Dr Sears, who is pro choice, recently wrote an article describing how unlikely it is for a doctor to give a medical exemption based on a reaction to the vaccine.

I look forward to reading your response to all of these points.

@Ben

Sorry Angus, this post was for Ben!

Oh.My.God. Just quit already with your 'injury tables and hours for particular reactions after vaccine' bs! Simply put, you have NOTHING other than bogus EPIDEMIOLOGICAL studies (and a few preclinical trials where they kill the animals by somewhere like 90 days) to back up your demands for physiological information by readers of vaccine injured children. There need to be PHYSIOLOGICAL studies done on vaccine effects and they haven't done them. Haven't done them, clown. Oh but do tell us about ANY PHYSIOLOGICAL studies that have looked at each vaccine and particular bio markers like brain size, gut changes, cytokine elevation after their application. Do tell us about these studies Ben. Oh ya, you can't because they don't exist.

greyone

Kapoore
"You can't just say "NO" to these people because they have the power-that is the problem. It's the old school yard bully issue.
If we don't push back they win, and they are nuts in my opinion."

So succintly put.

We need laws to protect us as consumers from doctors who do not provide vaccine package inserts, and inform consumers of adverse reaction reports and vaccine court filings in relation to vaccines.
We need protection from greedy legislators courting money from the easy money crowd of professional business groups loving their liability free pharma.
Ginger, you are such a hero.

david m burd

@Ben

This was a quote by you earlier:

"Pharma companies are already regulated pretty well in many regards."

Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of families who lost members killed by such as Vioxx and many other pain relievers; tell that to those permanently ruined or directly killed by those vast numbers of patients cavalierly prescribed a vast array of psychotropic drugs (with 4, 5, or 6 prescribed at the same time) with such drugs directly causing suicide and catastrophic/mortal hemorrhaging. Tell that to the Thalidomide Generation, tell that to the huge numbers women damaged, sterilized, or killed by female-specific drugs. Tell that to the scores of thousands of women now sterilized by the various toxic Flu vaccines that continues every year. Tell that to the thousands of young girls and post-teen women that have been either killed or permanently terribly, stricken by the literally insane Gardasil anti-HPV vaccines. And this is just a short list.

"Pharma companies are already regulated pretty well in many regards" - what a sick laugh.

Ben, you are totally on board with the most corrupt Medical Authorities in modern history. And you exhibit blithe unawareness of the vast carnage brought by vaccines. You have simply chosen (for whatever reasons) to have ignored the vast literature and the personal stories of scores of thousands documenting the horror of vaccines, not only to their children but to themselves.

Here's some advice for you; Never Get A Flu Shot, and only come back here after you educate yourself.

kapoore

The fact is that those who refuse vaccines generally put no pressure on anyone else to not get vaccinated. I have no problem with someone taking a vaccine; I only hope they are informed but again that is not my responsibility. The problem is that THEY want to use police power to make me and those I love take vaccines against my will or forfeit an education that I still am required to pay for through taxes (and California has some of the highest taxes in the country). Really if someone wants to take 100 vaccines it is not my business, so why is it THEIR business if I don't want to inject myself or my loved ones with vaccines cultured in cancer cells, aborted fetal cells, tissue from sickened animals, that also contain neurotoxic adjuvants such as aluminum. I know that there are vaccine scientists who do not see a problem with culturing vaccines on cancer tissues--what is the difference they say with cancerous tissue and tissue that might contain mad cow disease that we really can't detect, etc. Personally I think they are beyond nuts, but that is not the real problem; the real problem is that they seem to have all this power. And that I have to take responsibility for giving them that power. I voted for some of these people who are willing to use police power to insure that Merck and other manufacturers of these products don't lose sales. In order to justify this they willfully know nothing, but they insist that everyone is forced to buy and be injected with these vaccines that have not been tested for cancer, for autoimmune disease, for neurological damage, etc. etc. They torture animals, children, and citizens who oppose them. You can't just say "NO" to these people because they have the power--that is the problem. It's the old school yard bully issue. If we don't push back they win and they are nuts, in my opinion.

Linda1

All children must be vaccinated in order to protect their health and the health of others. And now, right away, time is of the essence. Can't put off for a month or two any of the shots. Can't space them out either. Would leave them vulnerable to infection. Doing so would be bad medicine and bad parenting.

Meanwhile, the FDA finally came out and said without qualification that trans fat is poison, unsafe for human consumption, and... the ban on trans fat will become effective in...THREE YEARS.

So, get your kids vaccinated but it's ok for them to EAT POISON for the next THREE YEARS (which is added to the decades that the food supply has been laced with this poison already, to the FDA's full knowledge all along).

And once again, it is very important to point out that this affects the economically disadvantaged more, since cheaper, processed, conventional foods typically have added trans fats.

And, acknowledging that trans fat is not safe for human consumption, I wonder if the school lunch program that serves millions of children every day in this country will continue to serve trans fat (ie poison) laced goodies to the children that they insist must be fully vaccinated in order to attend and have access to those yummy health destroying meals?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/16/health/fda-trans-fat/index.html

cia parker

Ben,
Thank you for the courtesy of your response. I think a good way forward would be for both physicians and parents to read the same books, and then discuss them at a sort of book club meeting. That keeps it objective, so as not to get into "I've always been told that ... is a deadly disease, and the one in a million severely damaged by the vaccine is worth it," on one side, and "My child was healthy and normal until he got the ..., and then all hell broke loose and now he's ...., it would have been better to let him get ..., and what's more, ten children on my block reacted severely to the same vaccine," on the other. Talk about never the twain shall meet.

How about Judy Converse's When Your Doctor is Wrong: the Hep B Vaccine and Autism? Get the doctors' opinion on Judy's doctors blowing her off when her son reacted to the hep-B vaccine just the way mine did, with prolonged inconsolable screaming (he had severe bowel symptoms as well, which my daughter did not). Get everyone's opinion on the extremely high number of children irreparably damaged by the vaccine, many times higher than the number of children diagnosed with hep-b in the US. A little boy whom a physician said had definitely reacted to the hep-B vaccine and had a severe seizure disorder, had died several times but was resuscitated. The mother said they had run out of insurance, and had no one who would help provide his round-the-clock, 24/7/365 care. Didn't quality for Medicaid because her husband had a low-paying job. Get their opinion on the safety hearing in 1999 at which Judy testified, after which Merck said it would stop making the hep-B vaccine with mercury, as of September 1999, and yet it continued to sell the mercury-containing version for another two years (causing my daughter's vaccine encephalitis when it was given to her at midnight the day she was born, without permission, and her later-diagnosed autism). I would love to hear what the doctors have to say about that, and about its having been routine as recently as three years ago, maybe still is, to give that vaccine to newborn babies their first day of life, without even asking the parents' permission. In some hospitals reactions to it became so common that nurses started carrying adrenaline injections around with them to intervene as soon as the newborn went into shock reacting to the vaccine for prostitutes and drug addicts.

Have everyone read Randall Neustadeter's The Vaccine Guide and Dr. Mayer Eisenstein's Make an Informed Vaccine Decision, with statistics on the diseases, lists of vaccine side effects, descriptions on the most important recent studies on the dangers of the vaccines, discussions of the most common serious vaccine reactions for each vaccine, and descriptions of about twenty true VAERS reports with their case numbers.

And then ask the doctors why they think the benefits of the vaccines outweigh the risks. I'd like to ask you the same: is it just because that's what they always say or is it what you honestly think based on your own research? If that's the case, which vaccines do you think are so life-saving that they're worth the risk? At this time we have one in nine kids with asthma. The Manitoba study showed that if you start the pertussis series at two months, as is usual, it causes one in nine kids to have asthma when they're seven. If you don't start till the baby is five months old, it lowers the risk of asthma to one in twenty. Other studies have shown that those who don't get the pertussis vaccine at all have a risk of less than one in a hundred. In the US, 2300 people a year die of asthma. So the next question is whether pertussis is so deadly that these victims can be written off. Sweden did not give the pertussis vaccine for seventeen years, 1989 to 1997, and Dr. Arthur Allen says that pertussis did come back there, and that 60% of Swedish children got pertussis during those years, but there was less than one death a year from pertussis, less than the death toll from reactions to the DPT had been. Japan stopped giving it because so many babies were killed or brain-damaged by it, and immediately saw its SIDS rate plunge to lowest in the developed world, while it had been in the middling range before. I let my baby get the DTaP three times, then she caught pertussis anyway at eight months and gave it to me. And it was no big deal. Alarming, uncomfortable, strange, long-lasting, yes, but not dangerous.

Dr. Jay Gordon told his patients last year that measles is simply not dangerous to well-nourished, healthy children, and that's the bottom line. Measles is good for healthy children to get, gives permanent immunity, a stronger, better-trained cellular immune response, the ability to protect future infants, and protection from numerous diseases and cancers in later life. Febrile illnesses also produce developmental strides in young children, a welcome change from the developmental delays so often caused by vaccines. I had measles when I was a child: everyone did, everyone I knew had had it, and no one I knew or ever heard of had had a serious case of it.

Mumps and measles are usually trivial diseases, but also good for training the immune system to appropriately strengthen the Th-1 response (vaccines skew it to an inappropriate preference for a Th-2 response, which can cause autoimmune disease). We could all read and discuss Heather Fraser's The Peanut Allergy Epidemic, very dense and exhaustively referenced historical and present day analyses. And I'd love to see what the doctors would say about it. They've known for over a century that injecting anything into the body is liable to create an allergy to whatever injected substance the body reacted to. When vaccine developer Maurice Hillemann developed Adjuvant 65-4 (65% peanut oil) he knew that it was likely to create peanut allergies where none had existed before, but he believed the risk/benefit analysis meant that even if it DID create peanut allergies, he believed the lives saved by vaccines which used it would outweigh the lives damaged or lost. We could discuss what he would say if he knew that as a result of that and also that the Hib antigen resembles peanut protein in its molecular structure, so that the vaccine is causing massive levels of peanut allergies within a couple of years of its introduction in dozens of countries. We could discuss whether society has a right to insist that, for the sake of saving a certain number of children from dying of Hib meningitis, when it is also aware that doing so is going to cause one in fifty American children to have peanut allergy, and some of them die from it. And discuss how breast feeding prevents whatever kinds of meningitis are most common in the area (because the mother has immunity), and how most adults have achieved subclinical immunity to those common types of meningitis without ever having had a clinical case of it. Is it justified to damage everyone's immune system and prevent them from achieving permanent subclinical immunity, for the sake of preventing a small number from being damaged or killed by the disease(s)? And the meningitis vaccines are notorious for the many kinds of damage they often cause, including death.

It would be fun to discuss these texts and hear what the doctors thought of them. But we know ahead of time that the only possible conclusion would be that it is the well-informed parents who would have the right and the duty to make the final decision whether to accept or reject some or all of the proffered vaccines. It would be a GREAT way to inform the parents and the doctors as well. We could even discuss some of Dr. Offit's books, I've read several of them and have underlined passages on every page with notations as to why what he says is demonstrably untrue. So far Dr. P. has refused to publicly debate anyone from our side about vaccines, most recently Dr. Toni Bark. Why do you think that is?

@Angus

Oh.My.God. Just quit already with your 'injury tables and hours for particular reactions after vaccine' bs! Simply put, you have NOTHING other than bogus EPIDEMIOLOGICAL studies (and a few preclinical trials where they kill the animals by somewhere like 90 days) to back up your demands for physiological information by readers of vaccine injured children. There need to be PHYSIOLOGICAL studies done on vaccine effects and they haven't done them. Haven't done them, clown. Oh but do tell us about ANY PHYSIOLOGICAL studies that have looked at each vaccine and particular bio markers like brain size, gut changes, cytokine elevation after their application. Do tell us about these studies Ben. Oh ya, you can't because they don't exist. Get it, idiot?

Donna K

Mothers and fathers a generation ago were not in fear of their children regressing developmentally after 12 months to 18 months of normal development. This is a more recent phenomenon that has prospective parents, encompassing a wide range of ages of fertility, fearfully aware that they must be on the lookout for signs of autism and not only have a good pre-school selected but also be ready to include therapists of different disciplines on speed-dial to start early intervention when their child's development takes a nosedive, supposedly out of the blue with no cause other than maybe an errant gene (copy number variant) decided to spontaneously express itself. Parents are afraid because they are surrounded by sick and disabled children in their families and their neighborhoods. This many sick children with no reasonable explanation is frightening and medical orthodoxy has no answers and more telling it is not responding with alarm. Medical orthodoxy is acting guilty of something.

Ben wants to know what it is going to take to open a honest and thoroughly open dialogue between both sides of this issue. For starters, participants of medical orthodoxy have got to stop lying by trying to pass off fraudulent science as support for their side. Our side has identified how the majority of those citations are fraudulent and the continued use of them is akin to citing tobacco science. Their side will close off any chance of dialogue by citing Madsen, Chen, Boyle, DeStefano, etc. Our side is also acutely aware of the whistleblowers who have bravely come forward to set the record straight about what has been transpiring behind closed doors. More importantly, the other side needs to stop pretending that a dangerously bloated vaccine schedule that is manipulating immature and sensitive immune systems is above question and has nothing whatsoever to do with the epidemic of inflammatory immune-mediated diseases children are suffering from today. Allow open and honest dialogue specifically on this. And keep in mind, all the "scientific studies" and "professional opinions" culled from available medical orthodoxy resources will never supplant a parent's empirical and instinctive experience of what happened to their child.

Medical trade unions, industry and its captured government public health apparatus churn out continuous attempts to convince those resistant and fearful parents that medical orthodoxy has answered the questions of disability causation and vaccines. The medical orthodoxy stakeholders are under the mistaken assumption that they can continue to rely on their credentials to effectively cloak their feigning ignorance of what is going on. Pediatricians see patients in their offices suffering within hours or days of vaccine administration and instead of sounding the alarm that something about the childhood immunization program is hurting children right and left, we have a hit and run mentality from the medical profession. Parents are identifying and calling out the lies and deceit and they won't put up with it anymore.

Today, the number of parents with similar stories is no longer a manageable under-the-radar few – we are talking hordes of affected families and are introduced to one another at therapy sessions, pharmacy queues, etc. and we share our stories and find not only are our stories similar but we share a common ground - our unabating drive to seek effective treatment and answers to our children's suffering. Do not for a minute think we will become complacent with treatment. We want justice too.

Rebecca Lee

Ginger, thank you for your hard work and dedication.

@Angus

The leftist media, even in Canada is predictably going after Trump. And how many fekks does he give? None. He mentioned lobbyists ; ) in his speech and the importance of good plans. Lol, how good are the CDC/AAP/AMA or NIH's plans for autism? They are an f'g joke and a disgrace. They insult the parents and children of the land. Trump speaks of wanting/needing military. He seems smart enough to know that military, indeed youth, are being debilitated by forced vaccines and I don't think he will tolerate that.

ginger

Yes Ben... your questions bring up the worst fucking nightmare of my life, make me cry and give me chest pains.

But tonight the Maine Legislature took up our vaccine bill here. So I have to go do interviews and call reps and fight billonaires.

Genevieve

Ginger,

I just wanted to say that you rocked my socks with this post and your letters! We have an MLA in our province of Alberta proposing the same "mandatory information session" to opt out (he's calling it Mandatory Choice, gag me). You've given me some serious information here to use in my talks with our legislators. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

Hera

Ben;
But only a couple of years ago we were being told that their was no such thing as autistic regression by the "medical orthodoxy" you feel has all the answers.

Just parents who were mistaken and "thought" their kids were talking.. In fact maybe I am wrong, but I thought Dr Paul Offit has already explained to us that autistic regression does not actually exist?


So how could this regression that Ginger describes be in any way "typical" of autism?

By the way, I am intrigued with your opinion of the case of
the mayor who is now unable to walk or talk after her vaccine reaction?
http://fox4kc.com/2015/02/24/excelsior-springs-woman-left-with-permanent-brain-injuries-after-vaccinations/

Do you think perhaps she has that typical "regression at 48" syndrome? And we all know it would have happened anyway, of course...

Not trying to be unkind here Ben; I am glad you are sticking around to communicate with us.
And I am interested in your viewpoints.

Barry

I have a question (or two) for Ms. Taylor, regarding the questions you've asked of Ms. deHaas.

If someone answers your questions, and you don't like the answers, do you consider those questions answered?

A follow-up question: if the answer to the above question is "no," what are the minimum requirements for you to consider a question answered in this context?

I ask this in earnest, because from what I've been following questions like these have been answered by the medical orthodoxy before, definitely multiple times.

I know people are going to berate me for being a pro-vaxxer, but from what I've seen Ms. Taylor is interested in reasoned discussion, and so I hope that she will engage me in the interest of promoting a dialogue about this issue.

***************

Go away Ben. Adults are talking.

Educator

Hold the presses....did someone just say Donald Trump is running for President? Is it true? This would be awesome for the vaccine cause. He is not afraid to speak his mind and I believe he actually wants a strong America, not one with so many sick and disabled and feeling like their government is throwing them under the bus!

Researcher

Ginger, on the one hand, Ben's questions as to your son's personal medical history are logical ones, and ones that should have been asked by the pediatrician from the very beginning .
On the other hand, it also sounds like Ben might be trying to access said personal medical records.

Be very, very careful. Smells like a rat to me...

Linda1

"It's not often you get a chance to talk to someone who can speak so candidly about their child and the circumstances surrounding their injury."

Ben,
A book of parental accounts:

_The Thinking Moms' Revolution: Autism beyond the Spectrum: Inspiring True Stories from Parents Fighting to Rescue Their Children_by Helen Conroy (Compiler), Lisa Joyce Goes (Compiler), Robert W. Sears (Foreword)

See the writings of the AOA contributors.

Also, here are 238 short linked youtube videos of parents telling what happened to their children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOtk6vxVg0k&index=2&list=PLJpPObXpZncOfT0bG2ghgkVb2Nxjd_bNe

Jim Thompson

Ginger, The US "medical orthodoxy" has failed children in regard to vaccine injury. The US Congress has removed parent's rights to sue for damages in state courtrooms and the vaccine manufacturer's are treated as above the law. The US children are in an epidemic of autism. This includes death or disability. So Ginger, thank you for asking the right questions, including--why can't M.D.s step up to the plate? First Do No Harm!?

John Stone

Ben

Yes, I am sure Ginger has heard it a million times before but it is unscientific, bureaucratic bullshit. If the program was bona fide it would be actively monitoring and investigating every adverse reaction, listening to parents, not engaging in abuse, not persecuting professional dissenters, not engaging in adverserial legal tactics, not engaging in perpetual doubletalk. The system is rotten and not fit for purpose.

They've dug themselves in deep and there is no way out.

John Stone

Ben

Liability is a massive beginning for vaccines in the US - in the UK liability is merely notional for any pharmaceutical product (technically present but uninforceable because of legal aid rules, politicised agencies etc.). We need to prosecute fraud and corruption within agencies (you can look for example at what happened to David Lewis and others at the EPA), you have to sever formal links between industry and agencies (for instance the CDC Foundation - a non-profit funded by industry in which policy is formulated).

Ben

@Ginger Taylor

I'm sure you've heard this a million times before. From your description, your son seems to have followed a typical course of developmental regression consistent with ASD. How can we be sure that his regression would not have occurred in the absence of vaccination?

Since your son met the criteria for pertussis induced VE that means he must have experienced symptoms within 72 hours of his seven vaccine day at 18 months. What first alerted you that there might be a problem? What symptoms do you remember seeing? Which symptoms specifically were the ones you used with the injury table to arrive at item IIB? Since your son met the criteria for item IIB on the injury table, I'm assuming you were able to rule out the other vaccines he'd received that day as the culprit? Was it specifically because of the time period?

What was this first vaccine reaction at 3 weeks that you are describing? What symptoms did he experience then? What sort of GI and autoimmune problems did he have before 18 months? Did you notice symptoms of neuroregression prior to his seven vaccine day, and if so what were they?

Now, I'm not as familiar with this part. Do you contend that [what I'm assuming is] autoimmune inflammation chronic throughout the child's development or even much of their life? Or is it acute as a result of vaccine exposure? If the former is the case, has your son ever been diagnosed with encephalopathy or autoimmune encephalitis?

I hope this doesn't dredge up any unpleasant memories, but as someone who is interested in bringing a resolution to this issue I want to get as much information as I can. It's not often you get a chance to talk to someone who can speak so candidly about their child and the circumstances surrounding their injury.

RE: Liability of pharma corporations

Fair enough. I don't see anything immediately problematic with extending liability for other medical products to vaccinations for certain circumstances.

Ginger Taylor

Ben.. to the question you asked John Stone.

The answer is liability.

All the praise you heap on Pharma is for products for which they are accountable to the public for safety, for vaccines they are not. They can do whatever they want, and they do.

Restore liability to the vaccine program and the next day the vaccine program would change dramatically, because they would not be able to defend their current practices any more in a court room. The US program will cease being seventy doses and look more like the program we had in the 70s and 80s or Denmark's schedule today.

http://mainevaxchoice.org/images/83schedulev15schedulevdenmark.pdf

Liability.

Angus Files

Same here Ginger when we refused our son to have the "booster MMR" the doctor said" but he could catch Mumps and go sterile" we replied bearing in mind he has just been diagnosed with the mental age of around 2 years old do ya! really think that's a vote turner?"

Shit for brains, never mind the best brains are doctors.

MMR RIP

Joy B

This society is sick. Asperger's is just another way of being. It's just 'worrying' that kids and young adults are all plagued with either anxiety, stomach issues, autoimmune problems, cancer, diabetes, etc.

In my circle of friends, which is extremely heterogenous in every way, the autism rate of their offspring is around one in ten. This includes Asperger's. Every, and this is not an exxageration, EVERY family is touched by some form of inexplicable disability.

Honestly the ONLY kids I know right now who are normal and fully healthy are an unvaxed brother and sister, 17 an 12. Even "healthy" vaxxed kids display slowness, uncoordination, inappropriate anxiety, weird narcolepsy, "cute" tics and obsessions. Immature interests and motivations; stimming through life basically.

It's absolutely amazing, and very telling that doctors, who in a secular democracy are supposed to be bastions of responsibility, remain 'confused'.

If some policy people don't start coming forward and renouncing this cabal en masse, we are well and truly efffed. The parallels in every other sphere make me doubt there will be any great awakening. People have to have nothing to lose first and we aren't there yet. There's a whole new generation of these damaged kids who are now having children of their own. Will they let go of their own other way of being-ness to fight for their children? Do any of them even know THEY'RE damaged? They've been told their whole lives that they are just 'quirky', why would they fight? I mean there are massive "communities" of them now and they all revel in their "otherness". Will they ever realize the gravity of their situation and acquire the urge to fight? Is this even within the realm of possibility, really?

It's almost as if someone were trying to create an army of...well, I won't say it.

Ben

@John Stone

But that's only one side of the story. Pharmaceutical companies have helped to make significant advances in medical science and technology; the profit motive is thusly a double-edged sword.
Pharma companies are already regulated pretty well in many regards. What do you propose we could change, if it is an imbalance that you perceive, to bring things back in balance?

Ginger Taylor

Ben,

I am glad you are here. Stay and keep asking questions.

On the questions that I sent to AAP, few of them have answers at all. Some do, and the ones that I have seen (again not offered by actual sources responsible for answering those questions) are lame. There is only ONE that I know is actualy answerable, and it is a super crappy report where the word "assumed" is repeated through out, so it is not actually based on real world data.

So my questions are good faith questions.

On the subject of my son. Yes, we can discuss that. I have done so for a decade. Like all of our kids stories, it is a long one, but the short version is, he was vaccinated with 7 vaccines at 18 months (in California), including pertussis, he suffered a neurological regression that met the diagnostic criteria for pertussis induced VE, he was diagnosed with autism, I told our ped that I thought it was vaccine induced and he did nothing and performed no assessment, I didn't even see the VICP VE Dx until 5 years out - well after the statute of limitations had run out on his case, every other thing about his case is consistant with VE, we have mostly used alt med approaches to his care and I have never found a doc accessable to us that would assess him for VE. Because the system knows shit.

This includes my current pediatrician.

If the system worked, his first vaccine reaction at 3 weeks to Hep B would have been recognized and charted. He would not have received that shot again. His neuro regression may have been prevented by all the other GI and autoimmune symptoms he had before 18 months. If he did regress at 18 months, it would have been recognized that month, properly assessed and treated when the regression started, not 7 months later when I finally started alt biomed. The assessment would have found brain inflammation perhaps before he had developed severe autism months out. He would have been put into the VICP, had testing to support the claim and doctors to testify on his behalf. Ending in compensation.

As it stands, 12 years out, and 27 years after the Vaccine Injury Table was published, I am a nationally recognized vaccine injury advocate, and the lead advocate in the State of Maine, I have vaccine legislation pending in the Maine State Legislature... I walked into my seasoned pediatricians office this year, had her pull up the Table on the HHS web site, read her the VE dx and said I wanted my son evaluated and tested for this. She said to me, "I don't know what you are talking about."

Why would any sane parent want to participate in that fucked up of a program?

John Stone

Hi Ben

"@John Stone Is it possible that the converse is true? That is, that vaccines really are an important contribution to public health regardless of motives from pharmaceutical corporations?"

No, it is not possible. Without proper regulation (and this has been an issue for more than a century) they will always take advantage. They will market unnecessary products, they will market products which cause preponderent harm, they will market products which are not as safe as they should be. In fact we know of many instances with vaccines where this has been the case. These are not philanthropic organizations - don't even pretend to be - and they have received outside the vaccine sector criminal fines. Unfortunately even those fines are regarded as legitimate commercial risk: no one goes to jail, no individual gets fined, no one loses their job, no one even loses their bonus.

how many hannah polings

Just read on anh-usa.org that the ama wants to
"Create ethical guidelines for physicians in the media, Write a report on how doctors may be discipined for violating medical ethics through their press involvement, and release a public statement denouncing the public dissemination of dubious medical information through the radio, Tv, newspapers or websites."

Sounds like a julie geberding merck special.

John Stone

The thing is that if you don't regulate financial markets then what you get is toxic debt in which all sorts of fundamentally harmless people are implicated. If you fail to regulate food and drugs, the environment etc. (as has happened for decade upon decade) what you get is toxic toxicity. It must surely be that the bubble is about to burst.

Ben

@John Stone

Is it possible that the converse is true? That is, that vaccines really are an important contribution to public health regardless of motives from pharmaceutical corporations?
If we can both agree that both are distinct possibilities without qualifying any possibility as being more likely than the other at this stage, I think that's an acceptable starting point. What do you think?

@Ginger Taylor

In the interest of having an open dialogue can we talk about your son's injury at the hands of an AAP Maine pediatrician with the same frankness with which we discuss other issues that surround the vaccine controversy? If we want to leave no stone unturned here, then surely we want to be certain that without reasonable doubt (not that this is a legal issue, it's just a convenient term) your son suffered from a vaccine injury. If there can be no doubt in a dissenter's mind that your son was harmed from a vaccine, then they can't deny that vaccine injuries (and I don't mean allergic reactions, I mean big injuries like encephalopathy) are very real and must acknowledge that or else suffer from cognitive dissonance.

Angus Files

The Donald is running for president now he knows afew lines about vaccine damage ...I wouldn't care what party he stands for I would be voting for TRUMP.

https://www.facebook.com/GlobalNews/videos/vb.114019975312443/848879085159858/?type=2&theater

MMR RIP

Ginger Taylor

David, Thank you. But you forgot the part where my typos are atrocious.

Flyers for docs offices are next step. We were going to prep some if this bill passes. But now it looks like even if it does, the Governor will veto it. Even if they had enough for an over ride, the bill is basically a Trojan horse for us to educate physicians on all the corruption and on the VICP.

So we decided that no matter what, we will start prepping some flyers for parents to take into docs offices to show them the unanswered questions that are key in answering before trust can begin to be rebuilt.

So yes, flyers. Fact sheets. Yes.

Ginger Taylor

Also Ben... just want to say a "me too" to Cia, Deborah, Hera, Linda and Twyla's posts.

And I don't want those answers from you, or from a blogger or from Every Child by two. They are not official sources with a responsibility to the public, to me or to my child. I don't care what your rational is for why current policy is fine. Or Offit's or Dorit's or the Queen of England's. They are not in the chain of command over my child's health if I participate in the vaccine program (which I did.)

CDC is. AAP is. Maine AAP is. My son was harmed in the office of one of their members who was following their recommendations. My children currently have AAP pediatricians. AND they want to legally force me into buying additional services from them. So THEY owe me THEIR answers on these matters.

And just saw your new post. Will answer separately.

John Stone

On risk versus benefits

Presently what we have is very good propaganda systems for denying risk and asserting benefit. Apart from the fact that most of us are here because they have experienced the harms first hand we have no good of assessing the claim that "the benefits outweigh the risks" let alone that risks are at an acceptable level. For instance if you had a vaccine which has killed one for every ten it saved could it be said to be an ethical way of tackling the problem? In the case of Hep B vaccines in the United States they are being administered to newborns who don't need them and can't derive any benefit. In the case of HPV vaccine their benefits cannot be proven, if at all, for decades to come. With the flu vaccine you are administering against strains which generally fail to circulate, and which according to recent studies are likely to reduce long term resistance to flu.

These are just some examples - the only obvious reason why many vaccines are administered is to give the manufacturers a captive market. If officials really believed that vaccines are an important contribution to public health rather than a cynical marketing exercise on behalf of their cronies they wouldn't conduct policy like this.

Ben

@cia parker

Fair enough, thank you.

It's probably true that most doctors are probably not on the cutting edge with respect to vaccine controversies. What would you have them do, exactly? Should they be forced to take CE classes on theories that have been investigated and then abandoned by the medical orthodoxy, by virtue of the fact that there is still controvery surrounding these theories? Do you want them to simply be aware of the controversies and the different facets there-of? And most importantly, do you consider it acceptable for a doctor who is on the cutting edge of these controversies to not share your views?

And again, this is in earnest; my intention is not to stir the pot. This is an emotional issue for everyone involved, on both sides, and I understand that now.

@Deborah Kahn

I don't have such links on my person at the moment, unfortunately.

@Twyla

You have a point. Regarding AAP Maine specifically, perhaps these questions have not yet been answered.

I can't say that I have answers to all of your questions because I am no expert, and have no knowledge of AAP Maine's workings or what data they have access to. They are ultimately the ones with the ability to answer those questions, and if they can't or refuse to then that's not necessarily a good sign.

@Hera

The risk outweighs the benefits? Are you sure you didn't mean the other way around? I was under the impression that the consensus, even among pro-safe-vaccination doctors, is that vaccines do what they are purported to do and that the benefits outweigh the risks at the population level.
As far as on an individual basis, it's been suggested that the risks can outweigh the benefits with regard to vaccinations. I don't think that point is in contention, which is why medical exemptions are universally allowed for vaccinations.

@Linda1

I don't think that's a good thing at all. At the very least the constituents should be aware of what this law entails.

@Ginger Taylor

Thank you for your response.

I completely agree that science needs to be a dialogue in order to be effective. There is nothing to be gained by shunning one position because it doesn't jive with your own position. I can also agree that stonewalls from medical professionals are not acceptable answers. I'm glad that at the very least some physicians have answered your questions satisfactorily.

What's the best way to move forward with respect to opening an honest and thoroughly open dialogue between both sides of this issue?

Ginger Taylor

Ben,

If someone answers your questions, and you don't like the answers, do you consider those questions answered?

Well depends on why I don't like the answer. If the answer is an earnest fact based answer, then doesn't matter whether or not I like that answer, that is their position.

If it is a bullshit answer, then that is going to get fact checked and follwed up.

There are some points on vaccination that we can agree to disagree on, but honestly most of them we can't, because they are supposed to be evidence based and line up with medical ethical standards. If they offer answers that are not, then no, I am not going to be satisfied with them. Because they should not be satisfied with them.

If their answer does not line up with science and ethics, then their next statement should be, "which is why people need to be able to have a choice... and here is what we are doing to bring that part of the program in line with ethical standards and improve the science on it...."

But the thing about their "answers" is that according to them, this is supposed to be a discussion! We are supposed to be part of a relationship with the medical community on how to improve, understand, refine, blah, blah, blah. That is what science is. It is constantly asking questions and pushing the boundaries of our knowledge and understanding. That is how ethics works. That is how earnest society works.

A follow-up question: if the answer to the above question is "no," what are the minimum requirements for you to consider a question answered in this context?

So for the "No," which I have kind of answered above... a no would be any version of Offit's bullshit that "all questions have been asked and answered and science has spoken, shut up, do what you are told and go away." That is flat out bad faith and will only garner an "unacceptable" response from me.

Stonewalls are unacceptable. They have legal immunity, therefore they loose their right to not answer ligit questions from those who participate in the vaccine program.

Minimum requirements for an actual earnest answer would be something like:

"I don't know, but I will find out."

"I have never heard that before. Let me look into it and I will call you back. Are you available to talk next Thursday."

"I checked, and we actually don't have good data on that. Yes that is an area that we need explored, if you can get your people to give us input on where best to start that line of questioning it would help us start things off."

"The answer to that is somewhere between 1 in 50 to 1 in 700,000. So that is an area where a patient will have to find a physician who will work with them to determine which end of the continum you might be on so you can make the wise choice you can with the information we have at the moment."

"It looks like Merck might have been dishonest about the effectiveness of the mumps vaccine, and we have a letter into the FDA with our questions on this. For now, it might not work at all, but it is the best way we know to prevent mumps, so we are still recommending it but yeah... it might not work for your child."

"I don't know, and I can't find an answer. This is where parental choice comes in, so we respect whatever decision you make on that."

"yes Paul Offit does say embarassing things, and no I don't look to him for my facts on vaccination. Who are the physicians that you have learned the most from?"

"Well I am a bit worried that you have decided not to vaccinate all together, but I can still see you as a patient. I will still recommend them when you come in, because I really believe in them, but I don't want to make you feel bullied either so always know I will respect your choice on this. Let's do some research on some ways to prevent your child from getting some of the really bad illnesses outside of vaccination, because I just don't want to see her get HIB. It is a nightmare."

Those are good faith answers. Those are acceptable answers. Those are not stonewalls. Those answers expand our understandings of science and ethics. Those answers build the relationship with the public. That is how this is supposed to work.

Educator

The topic of vaccines just came up with a fellow teacher and it turns out she did not vaccinate her children past infancy and H1N1 flu vaccine. She heard of 2 friends who got deathly ill immediately after. The child was sent to Germany for treatment and the adult is not doing very well. I'm afraid many see a huge problem and do not vaccinate but do not speak out about it. Our rights will be stripped away and we can no longer be a silent majority, that includes the Polings.

go Rand

Thank you again Ginger.

To keep the AAP office money flowing… Parents would have to purchase a counseling session about vaccines ? What would this cost 300 dollars an hour ? / not covered by insurance ?

This might be made easier by the use of a charming CHOPS vaccine video called “Dr. Offit’s Neighborhood” ….which would explain the need for a prostitute vaccine for a baby six hours old that is 3 pounds underweight.

Dr. Offit would be paid about $50 for each view of the clip.

Benedetta

Susan? Hey Susan!

Put your link to the U tube of yours up again for Ben!

He wants to know if you ask a question and it gets answered why don't you believe 'em!

There was once upon a time a study done - by orthodox somebodies - it was reported in the news, on the radio, on the TV and the newspapers.

That smoking is really -- I mean really - truly healthy for you - good for you.

it just won't go away

Ms Taylor,
Thank you for the bill you introduced in Maine.
Brilliant and needed.
Reminds me of Mark Blaxill's testimony at the hearing for the bill-"This is the most extreme industry protection in the world..There's nothing like it..and it is a catastrophic failure."
A protection that extends to business organizations that know better, but can't seem to do better.

Angus Files

Whilst we mop up the collateral damage Offit et-al enjoy another bumper pay day ...whoop-de-do for them

When someone knowingly harms and then goes on and harms again that determines them as a psychopath"

"The psychopath can appear normal, even charming. Underneath, they lack conscience and empathy, making them manipulative, volatile and often (but by no means always) criminal"

IF THE HAT FITS WEAR IT...

MMR RIP

Linda1

Ben,
The Maine AAP is trying to have a law passed that would mandate all parents who do not want to purchase one or more vaccines from their members to then be required to purchase a counseling session about vaccines. Ginger's organization is merely asking what Mainers will get for their money and is questioning whether AAP members are prepared to provide these services. The Maine AAP is refusing to disclose what the counseling will consist of - a serious consumer protection problem. Further, Ginger's organization has introduced another bill that would mandate physician education regarding vaccine injury and compensation to ensure that injured patients are taken care of and in the hopes that physicians will use that education to inform patients. The Maine AAP has refuted the need for education while at the same time demonstrating complete ignorance of the proposed educational content. That fact fatally undermines the Maine AAP's claim that they should be in a position to counsel anyone on vaccines, especially for a fee. Not only that, but their performance in these hearings should bring into legal question their fitness to administer any vaccines until they have demonstrated competence.

Hera

Wonderful article, Ginger.
Ben; it seems ( from a scientific point of view) you could find the answer to your question very easily. Provide the answers to her questions and see what she says.

Have you ever seen a risk benefit analysis of vaccines that takes into account costs from vaccine reactions and care for the vaccine injured?

Please; just one of her questions that I would love to see answered.. And if it has already been answered, please provide the answer; inquiring minds want to know.

It seems imo that most statements in general are confusing "risk to the general population" with risk to the individual. There are plenty of things that would benefit the population as a whole that would be terrible for the individual. ( For example, killing everyone who needs Nursing Home care would be a great money saver. But ethically, evil.)

Do you agree that saying the risk out weighs the benefits ONLY applies at the population level, and that for certain subsets of people (for example those who die or are severely injured by the vaccine),there are no benefits at all?

On a final darkly humorous note; I am reminded of the King in Shrek, giving his "inspirational" speech to the knights before sending them out on their quest to kill the dragon; "Some of you may die, but it is a risk I'm willing to take.."

David Taylor

Ginger, your passion is inspiring, your facts are deadly, and your prose is compelling. "The nightmare experiment of liability free vaccines" is my pick for phrase of the year.

Not a lawyer or legislator (Thank you, Jesus!), but what is the Constitutionality of a bill forcing a well-baby pediatrician visit that the patient must pay for? I bet dentists would like some of that action.

If your group plans to stand outside pediatricians' offices and distribute lit, please let us know. Groups around the country are hungry to get their hands on a well-done flyer or fact sheet to picket peds' offices with.

Twyla

Really, Ben? These questions have been answered multiple times? Please cite sources for the answers to these questions:

* Are vaccines, “safe,” “mostly safe,” or “unavoidably unsafe?”

Yes, this one has been answered with vague assertions that vaccines are safe (though contradicted by statements elsewhere that vaccines are “unavoidably unsafe”), but what about the followup question:
* Can you please submit data to the committee the cost/benefit analysis to support this supposition, that includes costs incurred due to vaccine adverse events?

* What is the actual vaccine injury rate in Maine?

Vaccine injuries are poorly tracked, reporting is voluntary, estimates are that 1% to 10% of adverse reactions are reported. And once reported, these adverse reactions sit on VAERS with no statements as to which ones if any have been verified as caused by vaccines or found to be unrelated to vaccines. Mainstream medicine does not even appear to know how to identify a vaccine injury. But you say this question has been answered "definitely multiple times"? Pray show us where. We are waiting with bated breath. Doesn't have to be in Maine.

* Does Maine AAP oppose listing the VICP information and table in the Maine CDC Immunization Program Provider Reference Manual? If so, why?

Again - answered multiple times? Where?

* Please list the AAP pediatricians in Maine who specialize in assessing and diagnosing various vaccine injuries, and who testify for families in the VICP.
* What training and direction does AAP give their physicians on assessing and diagnosing vaccine injury, and then testifying on behalf of their vaccine injured patients in the VICP?
* When a child presents with the symptoms of vaccine encephalopathy, per the VICP table, in the days or weeks following a pertussis or measles containing vaccine, what is the process by which a Maine pediatrician determines if the symptoms are caused by the vaccine or merely a temporal association? Please attach research and educational materials.

Regarding the above three questions, we would be interested in any body of knowledge on treating vaccine injuries - a knowledgeable resource, textbook, articles. It seems like only "alternative practitioners" do this, such as doctors formerly known as "DAN!" or the current MAPS. These are scoffed at by mainstream medicine. Surely mainstream medicine must have something to offer regarding what to do when an adverse reaction occurs? Even if these reactions are alleged to be incredibly rare and outweighed by the risk of the diseases? If the disease is more dangerous, does that mean that the vaccine injuries should be ignored and that science and medicine do not need to develop ways of treating them?

* What is the AAP doing to re evaluate children with a diagnosis of autism, who also meet the VICP table description of encephalopathy, to assure that these children have not been missed and are not continuing to suffer from medical neglect for these associated medical conditions such as chronic brain inflammation?
* What is the Maine AAP doing in response to these families reports of medical neglect because of the failure of pediatricians to perform proper assessments for established VICP table injuries?

Ben, we are so looking forward to you showing us where these questions have been answered by "medical orthodoxy" multiple times. Or "questions like these".

* Can you please provide the committee with the safety and efficacy data surrounding your recommendation to administer Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, HIB, Polio, Hepatitis B, Rotavirus and Pneumococcal vaccines simultaneously to all two month old infants?

That's a really good one. Surely you must have some studies up your sleeve, Ben, showing the safety of giving 6 or 9 or 12 vaccines at once? We haven't seen any. Not counting Dr. Offit's ridiculous mathematical formula concluding that 10,000 is ok and therefore 11 is surely fine.

* What is the AAP doing to protect pediatricians in Maine who are not satisfied with the gaps in vaccine safety and efficacy data who are asking challenging questions of medical authorities on vaccine safety, and want to practice the precautionary principle in populations lacking data so that they “first do no harm?”
* You stated that we have an obligation to protect each other from communicable disease. What is the AAP's position on protecting children from vaccine adverse reactions?

More great questions. Eagerly awaiting your answers, Ben.

Ready to be convinced by compelling information, and tired of vague pro-vaccine declarations.


Deborah Kahn

Ben, you said "I ask this in earnest, because from what I've been following questions like these have been answered by the medical orthodoxy before, definitely multiple times."

Obviously, if these specific questions have been answered, you should be able to link to those answers in multiple places. If you merely mean that questions which are vaguely related in some way to the specific questions asked by Ginger Taylor, then you are playing word games and deceptive word games at that.

Links please to those answers, with detailed explanations of how the questions which are "like" correspond to the questions which were actually asked in this article.

Thanks.

cia parker

Ben,

If we get an answer that we don't believe and don't agree with, then that's it, we don't have to. If I ask someone a question about anything, in a respectful relationship he would try to answer my question to the best of his knowledge, but in no way does that force me to believe him and behave as he says that he would do in those circumstances. Since it was clear from Ginger's article that very few doctors know anything about vaccines but the basic theory and what vaccines are available and recommended for different groups, it means that parents must do the research ourselves. Many of us could instruct the doctors in what they should know, but don't. We have a moral obligation to do so, for the lives of our children, even if the doctors have pushed away and decided to hear no evil about vaccines.

kapoore

One day maybe these doctors will lose their protection from lawsuits, and then they will be as current with the research as parents of vaccine injured children. It doesn't take an MD to find out that aluminum adjuvant injected into the muscle has a passageway into the brain, nor does it take a medical degree to find out that cell lines used to manufacture vaccines are heavily contaminated with unwanted viruses, and are untested for cancer causing capabilities. I'm not sure how these MDs managed to avoid knowing about potential fraud at Merck, the CDC, or the trail of pharmaceutical payouts for their corrupt practices. So...I'm not surprised that they can't figure out how to track reactions to vaccines--like a thermometer for fever, crying, or lethargy. I watched the videos from Autism One and found out that a child who cries a lot (more than other children) might have bowel issues...amazing that pediatricians can't figure out that there is an epidemic of bowel disease. Good for Ginger for pushing legislation that makes them pay attention, even though they don't seem to want to.

Mercky Business

Ben has obviously risen phoenix-like from the ashes of Godfrey Wyl.

[Amended editor]

Ginger ROCKS!

Awesome ! You got me thinking --
What are the financial incentives on drs? Do they get a percentage on each shot (kickback)? They don't sell drugs directly for that reason right? Also I heard that they show up in insurance databases based on percent vaccinated (not displayed) when someone is choosing a new dr. Is this true?
I have always wondered if Healh insurers paying some of the costs of vaccine injury due to the lack of reports to the VICP --when are they going to do the vax unvax studies and figure out that they are incurring all these costs due to vax. They have the data right? Especially the kaisers who are compromised since they get paid to do safety tests in another division. But as long as some people refuse to vax they should be able to compare their health costs for specific diseases. When they figure out that vaccines impact their profit wont there be a battle between health insurers and vax creators?

Ben

I have a question (or two) for Ms. Taylor, regarding the questions you've asked of Ms. deHaas.

If someone answers your questions, and you don't like the answers, do you consider those questions answered?

A follow-up question: if the answer to the above question is "no," what are the minimum requirements for you to consider a question answered in this context?

I ask this in earnest, because from what I've been following questions like these have been answered by the medical orthodoxy before, definitely multiple times.

I know people are going to berate me for being a pro-vaxxer, but from what I've seen Ms. Taylor is interested in reasoned discussion, and so I hope that she will engage me in the interest of promoting a dialogue about this issue.

Vince

>> not just once, but constantly!?
That's the crux of the biscuit for me. If a product is to be mandated, we'd damn well better be thoroughly, honestly, and with a fine-toothed comb verifying safety and efficacy every single year.

Holly

Doctors are just tools to industry and government.

Sophie Scholl

Brilliant post Ginger

But its millions of children sick you know (its tens of millions internationally )

Bob Moffitt

"How can you possibly hold the position that you want open discussion on vaccine issues between our two groups, when you flat out refuse to engage our group on some very legitimate questions?"

"How can you possibly hold the position that you have no obligation to engage me personally, when you are trying to pass a bill legally forcing me personally to engage with your members?"

God bless Ginger .. the absurdity of REFUSING to answer Ginger's reasonable questions .. the supposedly whole-purpose of the legislation .. is mind-numbing.


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