Dachel Media Update: 10/12
Every Day - Exactly the Same

Age of Autism Weekly Wrap: The 'No-Debate' Debate

Keep Calm Write OnBy Dan Olmsted

One of the great televised moments in vaccine-autism history (right up there with “the problem is the problem”) occurred on The Today Show a few years back when Matt Lauer said “there is controversy” over a link and Dr. Nancy shot back: “Not controversial subject, Matt.”

 Matt: “Well, controversial for parents who still believe ...”

 Dr. Nancy: “It is not controversial Matt. It's time for kids to get their vaccines.”

 It’s less what Matt says, and more the look on his face and the sound of his rather emphatic setting down of interview notes, reflecting the fact “parents who still believe” include someone in his own circle who blames a child’s autism on the MMR.

 Yes, it’s controversial. And it’s only gotten more so.

 The 2008 Today show piece Matt and Dr. Nancy were discussing was a paean to the heroic long-suffering Paul Offit. But it also showed an interview with Bernadine Healy, and Snyderman claimed that Healy wanted to ask “a different question altogether” from whether vaccines cause autism --about whether a “one size fits all” vaccine schedule is dangerous, and a subset of kids may be vulnerable to various side effects. This of course is not a different question altogether, it is exactly the same question – as Healy’s interview with CBS’s Sharyl Attkisson showed.

 Yes, there is indeed a controversy, one Dr. Nancy and Dr. Paul have tried unsuccessfully to suppress.

 The “no debate” argument surfaced again this past week, as Brian Deer was given free rein at the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse to peddle his views as though they were carried down the mountain by Dr. Moses. As our own Anne Dachel reported:

 “The University of WI-La Crosse made their position clear in the opening remarks of professor of immunology, Bernadette Taylor, before an audience of hundreds of UWL students. “There is no debate… This University did not invite a debate on that issue.”

“Case closed: the University would not allow for a free exchange of ideas so informed, intelligent students could make up their own minds.

“Brian Deer was then allowed to present his version of the most heated controversy in medicine today: Is our aggressively expanded vaccination schedule behind the exponential increase in autism? According to Deer and the UWL, the debate is over. Only a few desperate parents still believe in a link. The science has spoken.”

 This idea that “the science” has spoken is profoundly unscientific, of course. Rather, it’s the gutless whimpering sound of a dying paradigm. Putting the kabbosh on disagreement is a sign of deep anxiety about the real facts. And, of course, it’s fundamentally undemocratic to attempt to stifle dissent by claiming it’s too dangerous – kids will die if you disagree! A mushroom cloud will explode over New York if you don’t agree Iraq has weapons of mass destruction! The world will be more dangerous if you don’t quit pushing this Watergate thing! (“One year of Watergate is enough,” as Nixon famously proclaimed.)

 It is ever thus. People who can’t handle the truth repair to their prejudices and partial understanding and blame others for continuing to speak out.

 It’s interesting to see the same dynamic playing out in the official response to the cases of tic disorders at two New York state high schools. We reported this week on a third case among softball pitchers at Corinth High School north of Albany, and a total of six so far at the school, along with another 20 or so at LeRoy Junior/Senior High School near Rochester. In both places, doctors themselves have become denialists, attributing the problems to “conversion disorder” rather than real physical illness.

 In LeRoy, officials blamed the media for causing and prolonging the problem. So some of those media outlets actually took down videos showing the girls’ symptoms. When two more cases happened this fall, a neurologist blamed a visit by a representative of Erin Brokovich, who is searching for possible environmental causes.

 Talk about crazy.


Dan Olmsted is Editor of Age of Autism.






It makes me sick that an "institute of higher learning" would take such a stance, and disallow any debate or dissenting discussion! This is unacceptable and unacademic for any subject, maybe more so for such a controversial one.

I strongly believe there is a link between vaccinations and autism, but it's not necessarily the only link. Our environment is replete with so many toxins, many of them neurotoxins, that it's difficult to separate the causes.

It seems to me that the disparity in the levels of autism could be attributed to the levels of heavy metals in the system. These heavy metals come from many sources, vaccines probably being the most responsible. The fact that they are injected directly into the body, not to mention the amounts of these toxins present in them, makes them very likely most culpable.

We need to clean up our environment, stop allowing the use of nasty things such as HFCS (which carries mercury), eat more whole foods, and have INDEPENDENT research on vaccines given as much weight as that done by pharmaceutical companies and the government. We'll never be able to trust studies done by anyone linked with the development or requiring of vaccines. They have too much to lose.

On a similar, but slightly off-topic note, all American people need to stand up and fight for our freedom to decide what medical care our children (and we receive). There are many bills across the country seeking to take away the rights of parents to refuse to vaccinate their children. These are unconstitutional and immoral.

As parents we have the moral obligation to take care of our children as we see fit, and that includes deciding whether or not to have potentially damaging toxins injected into their bodies.

Even those who believe strongly in vaccination need to fight this, as it's not just about vaccines but also about freedom. They take this choice away from us, and who knows which one they'll take away next.


That sounds like an good chant for a crowd of parents at Deer's next speaking engagement near (some of us). The world might be getting smaller for people like Deer.

barbara j

Exactly Jeanette, the study described vaccination of only two vaccines,dtp and mmr. So would the subjects be considered unvaccinated if they only had 20 other vaccines? How many had hepb at birth?



Linking Tony's question to that study was simply dishonest. Shame on you!


Vaccine cause autism. That is the sad but simple truth, and the only way to get around that truth ... is to lie your way around it.

The web is full of trolls like Eindeker who try to do this all the time.

Jeannette Bishop

re: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23045216

"One or more immunizations in 59/98 younger sibs were delayed (47/98; 48%) or declined (12/98; 12.2%); immunizations were delayed in 16/98 probands (16.3%) and declined in only one. "

This summary does not seem to say if any (of the huge sample size of 12) children were actually never vaccinated. Is the official medical definition of "unvaccinated" that a child has missed or delayed some (or one) vaccines, and isn't that lying to the rest of the population who think you are speaking the same language they are speaking?


Hi John
In this study 12 younger siblings had no vaccines at all, of these 4 were diagnosed with ASD & 1 with SLD, compared with 6 out of 39 fully vaccinated younger siblings who developed ASD and 2 who had SLD, the numbers are small but the %'s are comparable.
15 out of 47 younger sibs with delayed vaccination history developed ASD and 2 had SLD.

It seems a good pilot for a larger retrospective study to be conducted in a high risk group of children, it overcomes the ethical issues in conducting prospective vaccinated v unvaccinated studies.

Mark Struthers


Linking Tony's question to that study was simply dishonest. Shame on you!

John Stone

Hi Eindeker

Where are the unvaccinated children in this study? Your proxy for them is children with delayed vaccination, and btw we are only talking about DPT and MMR, not for example Hep B or HiB, or any of the others. As to any significance, it is a very small study.


They're here: a study looking at autism in younger siblings of autistic children, how it is or is not related to vaccination status since many of the parents refused or delayed vaccination after their first child was diagnosed with autism
"All controls were fully immunized, with only 6 (9.2%) delayed. Within the "younger sibs" group, 25/98 received an autism spectrum disorder diagnosis; 7 of whom (28%) were fully immunized. The rates of autism spectrum disorder diagnosis did not differ between immunized and nonimmunized younger sib groups, although small sample size limits interpretability of this result"

Unfortunately unvaccinated children do develop autism Tony


Same as the self reporting German study on health outcomes in vaccinated & unvaccinated kids that was discussed on this site, unvaccinated children had a similar rate of autism to those having had vaccines

Tony Bateson

We are still banging on around the thousands of complexities facng both sides of the argument as to whether vaccines are linked to autism. And yet I still await an answer to my question posed at the Vaccine conference of November 2002 'where are the unvaccinated autistic kids?'. Please someone tell me, I haven't been able to find them in the UK and no organisation seeks to disabuse me of the notion that they don't exist. What goes on here? It is as though there is an extra dimension where people can endless argue the issue whilst no link exists to the reality.

Tony Bateson
Birmingham, UK



"The worst thing for Deer...in a US Court under oath"
It is my fervent hope Nhokkanen.
How else can one stop him from voyaging round the planet like a rabid dog spouting his lies and enjoying himself at the expense of one good man of impeccable integrity?
Until he is brought to heel he will carry on regardless. The thought that people are paying to listen to his insanity and applaud his performance makes me weep. Of course when he reads that - I suspect he spends his spare time reading every striking word with his name in it 24/7 -, he will squirm with pleasure. Well rock on Deer, your dog days are coming to n end

From the Depths of the Rabbit Hole


Relevant to this discussion--especially the part about mixing three different herbicides together to treat soccer fields--and the potential resulting never-tested for synergistic effects.

A bit like testing vaccines individually against a placebo that isn't really a placebo, then delivering them to children in multiple doses without any concern or thought to additive or synergistic effects on the immune system, etc.

And as in any article about vaccines, the trolls are there defending the safety of herbicides. So safe, you can drink them and have no ill effects, don't cha know! Just like mercury! Crazy soccer mom concerns are all just based on fears, not fact, the pesticide salesmen say. Amazing really.

angus files

The Human Race,if it aint broken fix it until it is...done job in the UK.

Thanks Dan


In modern medicine, anything's possible

"Conversion Order" is the perfect foil. It's nobody's fault except the victims'. There's no test for it and no known cure - just expensive pharmaceutical treatment to "manage" it. All that's needed is a medical degree to diagnose it. They can blame new cases on the media for covering it, and even call for censorship of the media to stop the spread of it.

Best of all, if the victims improve, they can take credit for it!!

Go Mainstream Med!!


To Patricia:
On Oct. 5 Brian Deer told what remained of his audience that if the Texas appellate court overturns the district court's verdict, that would merely be Republicans getting back at Democrats.

The worst thing for Deer is to sit before a judge in a U.S. court, under oath, faced with the full array of evidence of his lying. Then watch the swiftness of the many people and institutions backpedaling away from him.


paraphrasing Pink:

Dear Brian Deer,
How do you sleep while the rest of us cry?
How do you dream when a mother has no chance to say goodbye?
How do you walk with your head held high?
Can you even look me in the eye
And tell me why?

Liz Birts Army

lies , damned lies , & there are vaccines


As the 2012 flu season ramps up, A fine review of the 2009 H1N1 Flu season & Dr. Nancy....

(11 minure clip... final 4 minutes is very good ) Start at 7:00


Thankfully......no one turned violent....... FIGHTING.... over access to the....2009 H1N1 flu shot.

National guard and tasers for the "unvaccinated MOBS".... at 10:00.... the guard shuts down a mock-up vaccination center...

hey it could happen....

About 160 million H1N1 doses were thrown away... (paid for in full by the US government)

no vac

Yes, independent science has spoken and it agrees with parents' stories that toxic vaccines cause autism and death. LaCrosse and the media cling to genocidal propaganda of pharma cartels.


If I put vaccines in the search engine, then up pops vaccines and autism multiple times. It seems like there is some linkage out there in the world wide web, but somehow it doesn't seem to have filtered down to the parents who according to reports are following the schedule at a high rate--like 90%. These vaccine bureacrats are worried desperately about 2% of the population that abstains, and the rest that slightly alter the schedule. Pediatricians are very happy to just drop all parents who don't follow the program, and hospitals now are mandating flu shots for nurses--guess that isn't going to affect the nurses shortage. (What did ever happen to the nurses shortage, no problems there apparently.) I really wish like crazy that you were right and these vaccine maniacs were a dying breed, but I fear the worst. The No Vax crowd apparently hasn't reached some critical mass as yet.


So Erin just visiting was enough to set off these delicate minds (which was an athletic girl with a strong arm to pitch) -- that does not sound like a delicate rose to me?

Dr. Wakefield's research is fraud and yet in "Sceintific American", Dr. Alessio Fasano after trying to invent a vaccine for cholera, discovers that the cells lining the stomach can be unzipped causing a-a-a-a
well because it has been discredited they will have to change the name coined as "leakey gut"

And it is genetic by the way.

Only??? Everybody can get a leaky gut and if they do then it is inflammation and autoimmune disease?? Well I am not sure.
If someone smarter than me would listen to this plus it is written down too - just like subtitles


And if anyone can figure out how it damages the endocrine system - thyroid and -- well he mentions pancreas.


According to Deer, only a couple of the "specially recruited" Lancet children meet the criterion of regression within 14 days after receipt of MMR. All the other kids regressed before MMR or long afterward as proved by their medical records (and/or self-report to Deer by parents). Those medical records are discoverable in litigation so did Wakefield, Kessick and attorney Richard Barr not think about that?

In particular Deer tells us there are two different versions of the Kessick boy's regression: the account in the litigation is importantly different from the one in the Lancet paper. But the Lancet paper was cooked to order, Deer says, for the very purpose of supporting Kessick's litigation. Isn't it obvious that the Lancet paper would be used instead to impeach her? Some conspiracy: Wakefield, Kessick, Barr, a gang who couldn't shoot straight.

Pharmaceutical companies, with their floors full of attorneys, could be expected to notice such inconsistencies...you know, eventually.

Then there is just that little possibility that it's Deer's version that doesn't make sense.


My apologies Dan It is your article not from John, and a fine one.

Bob Moffitt

"This idea that “the science” has spoken is profoundly unscientific, of course. Rather, it’s the gutless whimpering sound of a dying paradigm"

Dan .. I wholeheartedly agree .. even though the "gutless whimpering sound of a dying paradigm" as a continuing problem .. is well recognized as such by the highest levels in government .. as evidenced by President Obama's memorandum on the subject of "scientific integrity":


Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release March 9, 2009

SUBJECT: Scientific Integrity

Science and the scientific process must inform and guide decisions of my Administration on a wide range of issues, including improvement of public health, protection of the environment, increased efficiency in the use of energy and other resources, mitigation of the threat of climate change, and protection of national security.

The public must be able to trust the science and scientific process informing public policy decisions. Political officials should not suppress or alter scientific or technological findings and conclusions. If scientific and technological information is developed and used by the Federal Government, it should ordinarily be made available to the public. To the extent permitted by law, there should be transparency in the preparation, identification, and use of scientific and technological information in policymaking. The selection of scientists and technology professionals for positions in the executive branch should be based on their scientific and technological knowledge, credentials, experience, and integrity."

Unfortunately, .. today .. a few years after the memorandum was issued .. "scientific integrity" remains an oxymoron to me.


John with regard to LaCrosse, I think there was confusion over the "media concept" of a debate between Deer and Wakefield themselves, which of course could not happen for obvious legal reasons, and the so called scientific concept that there is no controversy over vaccines and autism etc, therefore no debate, which is of course plain wrong and something the University had absolutely no right morally or scientifically, to assume.
My own view is that the College authorities, in particular Winfrey (whose letter to the Editor of the LaCrosse Tribune is a very public admission of bias and is offensive in its reference to Andy having "pleaded with them to be allowed" I am sure Andrew did not plead although others may have done so on his behalf), were just plain scared of the prospect of allowing Andrew Wakefield to have his say within the College premises - not about accusations of fraud but about vaccine safety - and thought they may have a riot on their hands if it were to happen.
They must be aware of Wakefield's current lawsuit under appeal in Texas. They must have known that Andrew Wakefield is fighting for his professional life and has not yet been allowed his day in a proper court of law. So what does all this say about their confidence in the ability of their own students to make their own adult decisions, based upon hearing all sides of this complex and controversial and crucially important issue? An issue which affects every young family today in the US? Nil is the obvious answer to that question. And this is a University? Shame upon them.

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