John Robison Protecting Our Children From Legal Prosecution Because of Manifestations of ASD at Autism One
Mercury in Mothers Milk: Report Sets off Controversy

The Facts and Fiction of Autism Research

Facts By Katie Wright

It was good to see Mike Strautmanis at April’s IACC meeting. It was very nice to hear Mike say that President Obama follows IACC’s work and sees our families. I would like the White House to be able to see more IACC members in their seats so the president could better know our dedication to this cause, but that is another story.

Dr. Ananud Parekh from the HHS spoke about the $122 million his agency has spent on ASD research with the stimulus money. Dr. Parekh spoke at length about screening, early intervention and adult services. That is all very nice but these priorities leave out 80% of the ASD population. When are these guys going to understand that there are almost a million children with autism living NOW. HHS autism research cannot = here is your diagnosis, get early interventions and can call it a day.

The HHS needs to understand they have got to focus on helping children older than 3 and younger than 21! That is the bulk of the ASD population Dr. Parekh! We need environmental causation research and ASD medical research now- desperately, not the millionth screening campaign. We cannot screen and diagnose our way out of autism!

I remember hearing 2 politicians arguing about how to recover from the recession. One politician was advocating concentrating on building up lower level service jobs. The other guy said sure more jobs, any jobs, are a good thing but we cannot expect to build a world class economy flipping each others’ burgers and doing each other’s laundry. That is how I feel about the HHS’ myopic obsession with “awareness,” and “learn the signs.” The federal government can walk and chew gum at the same time!  Screening and early intervention yes, but that is step 1 of 10. Let’s move! Let’s raise the bar!

This brings me to Dr. Joseph Piven’s presentation and the Grand Canyon gulf between NIH monies spent and the actual research priorities of families living with autism. One can only imagine the tens of millions of our precious research dollars spent this bloated, unneeded project.

If you ask the average autism Mom and Dad what their research priorities are I am pretty sure they would answer, more intervention research, biomedical treatments, environmental research, prevention/ causation research. Not coincidentally these are grossly underfunded areas of ASD research. Let’s take a look at the numbers of published studies on various ASD research subjects according to PubMed.

1) Autism and Brain Imaging    953

2) Autism and Genetics     3, 277

3) Autism and the Genome         844

4) Autism and Fragile X     566 – 2% of ASD have Fragile X

5) Autism and Alcohol (maternal consumption) 185

6) Autism and Maternal Drug Use      63

these research studies are too insulting on too many level to get into right now but I thought you should know about the insane amount of $ invested in this parent blaming ridiculousness


2) Autism and Biomedical Treatment         61

3) Autism and the immune system    232

4) Autism and Dietary Interventions          161

5) Autism and PCBs  16

6) Autism and Hg Emissions     3

7) Autism and Aluminum                     7

Guess what? This toxic substance has replaced most of the Hg in vaccines? Go thing we know so much about its safety!

8) Autism and the Mitochondria         7

9) autism and ivig     13

Ok, I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. It doesn’t really get more black and white than this, right? I’m no mathematician but there is a HUGE imbalance here between research families want done and research actually getting funded.

















The gross pubmed imbalance between needed ASD research and funded ASD research  got me thinking about the Grand Canyon gulf between IACC funding recommendations and actual funded NIH ASD research. It is worse than I thought. The IACC funding recommendations have really improved over time, better reflecting the community’s research priorities and the urgent needs of our children. Does anyone at the NIH actually read the IACC Strategic Plan before choosing grants?

Question 2 of the Strategic Plan is “How Can I Understand What is Happening” to my ASD child. IACC made many fine objectives about the need for environmental and biomedical research.  But a whopping 54% of NIH research in this category falls under the category of “Other, Non Specified Funding.”

I did a quick perusal of  #2 NIH research that relates to my son’s form of regressive,  medical and environmentally induced autism. Why did he have adverse vaccine reactions? How did this result in days of fevers? How do I understand why his immune system collapsed? How do I understand the fact he no longer recognized me when he became chronically ill? How do I understand his PANDAS? How do I understand the concurrent onset of his autism and GI disease? I have MANY questions about how this happened but none of them have to do with brain imaging, face processing, endless neuroimaging, MRI scanners or Radiofrequency equipment…But I will give you the good news first. If you have a child like mine you will be happy about this NIH IACC recommended funded research:

1)1Copper imbalance         $7,000 – this is a huge problem, our kids are filled w/ copper, they are poor methylators

2)a Metabolism study        $17,000

3) Medical conditions in ASD     $535,000. Although I am a bit concerned about this. Sue Swedo is the principal investigator and her recent update on ASD research showed a poor understanding of ASD, the disease model. Still better than nothing.

4) Mitochondrial issues in ASD $600,000. A very nice Doug Wallace project.

I found no “other” NIH funded projects relating to my child’s issues. The NIH fulfilled the IACC recommended genetic and brain research for this category. So remember that we take a look at some of the big projects in the “Other, Non Specified Research” NIH  funded research category:

1)Amaydala Dysfunction  $384,000

2)Neural Dysfunction         $614,00

3) ACE imaging          $396,0000

4) Synapse strength  $300,000

5)Neural System Facial Expertise      $524,000

6)Neural System Face Processing      $302,000

7)MRI neural imaging        $2 MILLION

8)Atypical MRIs         $503,000

9)Cognitive neuroscience $1. 13 MILLION. This is such an overfunded area. ASD is more than a brain disorder and cognitive functioning is often a result of environmental insults. How about studying that for a change?

10)Brain Functional Connectivity      $388,000

11)MRIs for Aspergers      $208,000

12)another ACE award      $206,000

13)Neural Social Cognition         $325,000. Isn’t this the same as #9?

14)MRI resonance image  $500,000. The ultimate Big Man, Big Machine!

15)Neuroimaging in Childhood $403,000

16)RadioFrequency Research Scanner       $500,000. More Big Man Big Machine!

Finally over $1 million more in ACE/ brain imaging awards

$8,553,020 in Non Specified on overfunded, redundant pet projects

The sheer redundancy of these research projects is truly mind-boggling. Are a bunch of MRI researchers blackmailing someone at the NIH? I mean how does one explain this MRI insanity? When is enough enough? When the entire category is MRIs? How many tens of millions need to be spent at the Simons Institute, Cold Springs Harbor and at the NIH on the same face processing, neural connectivity, synapse strength research?

Why are the issues important to my severely and medically affected, regressive ASD children all but invisible to the NIH? Who is accountable for these excessive grants that have zero to do with community recommendations?


It is not just the mercury


I think that stopping the mercury is not going to be enough. There are so many vaccines now and each induces brain inflammation. Also, as they reduced the mercury the aluminum increased. There are synergistic effects plus kids are getting more mercury now from the environment. Some of the vaccines that are not essential will have to go to reduce the risk of brain inflammation and oxidative stress.

Eileen Nicole Simon

Heather White,

Thank you so much for the link to the Able Kids Foundation! Years ago I was so hopeful that some kind of special hearing aid could be invented that would help my son Conrad, who had such severe hyperacusis that he would not walk through the room where the telephone was (we only had land lines back then). He would go up the front stairway and down the back stairs to get to the kitchen.

Conrad's speech was echolalic and he loved music. He could sing every song he heard on the radio in perfect tune and with all the words, but he never learned to speak naturally. As my linguist husband put it, he had difficulty making "grammatical transformations" (see research by Noam Chomsky). His problem was an inability hearing syllable and word boundaries (see research by Roger Brown).

Thank you Katie Wright for speaking out about the IACC.

I think I will contact them, via Ms. Lina Perez, and suggest that to survive "sunsetting" they should revamp their approach. They need to engage in dialogue sessions with stakeholders, on every topic of stakeholder concern. This is possible. I attended a conference sponsored by the University of Massachusetts on housing issues. Everyone sat at a table (without assignment), listed issues and possible solutions, and these were then presented and discussed with all attendees.

I think the mandate of the IACC was to look into why the prevalence of autism keeps increasing. Their conferences with presentations by "experts" and no dialogue with those of us affected are really boring and useless.

Katie Wright

Thank you Heather, very interesting!

I agree w/ you to Vicki. Adult services are terrible and must be improved, now- all of our kids will be adults. I only meant to point out that awareness and learn the signs does not = medical research and that most 2 yrs old don't suddenly stop being ASD after diagnosis. Adults need more services, a lot more I am just not sure how much control IACC has over actual services.

Heather White


I forgot to add some info in light of my excitement regarding your post.

My son is diagnosed with 90% damage to his Central Auditory Nervous System (CANS). He is fitted with filters that only allow the loudest noise in the room to pass his ear anatomy for his brain to process. This device has improved my son's speech/language and behavior. I can't emphasize enough how much his life has improved.

I have discovered that the cause of this damage is due to encephalopathy and heavy metal poisoning. Your commentary adds more to the story and fits with my son's history. Thank you again.

Heather White

For more information regarding hearing filters (patent pending technology) and diagnosis of CAPD here is the center where I take my son.

Autism and Anti-Vaccine Advocate


"I believe that the NIH should be shut down and as far as the CDC is concerned - I'd like worse."

Posted by: Benedetta | May 26, 2011 at 07:57 PM

I would love the same. That the whole Dept. of HHS that includes the NIH, CDC and FDA be shut down and de-funded totally but unfortunately it won't happen. The best we can hope for is that Congress reduce funding especially since the Federal government has overspent for the last two years with Obamacare, stimulus, etc.

Increasing funds for the CDC and NIH helps the pharmaceutical companies, not the public. It has been this way since they have been created and it will never change......never.

Heather White

Katie Wright,

"Dr. Ananud Parekh from the HHS spoke about the $122 million his agency has spent on ASD research with the stimulus money."

You should know that he is lying. That was the amount that was given to the NIEHS to spend on autism research but failed to so.

A testimony to Congress in Aug 2010. Barbra Boxer asked Dr. Linda Birnbaum, Ph.D., D.A.B.T., A.T.S. and Director, NIEHS where the $122 million in stimulus money went.

Here is what she said:

"NIEHS spent $9.3M on autism in FY 2009, of which $4.4M was from our regular appropriation and $4.9M was from funds provided under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) [stimulus funds]. I am an active member of the IACC, a group of Federal agencies and public members..."

She goes onto say the rest of the $122M went to early intervention and diagnosis.

Here is her transcript:

Here is where you can find the entire panels transcripts:

You can view the live testimony on C-Spans archives Here:

AUG 3, 2010

Katie Weisman

You are right on the money. The auditory piece is probably the biggest and most important uninvestigated factor in autism. So many of our kids have "perfect" hearing and no ability to process speech. I have been looking at the research on mercury/language and mercury/speech and the parallels are there, as well. I firmly believe that the birth dose of Hep B with thimerosal was a huge hit to kids' ability to speak.

Heather White

Eileen Nicole Simon,

Thank you for your comment. My placenta ruptured during labor and my son had to be revived at delivery. He developed normally until his 15 month vaccinations where he was injected with 9 vaccines. He regressed into autism - same old story.

This is the first I've read about the "asphyxia at birth" leading to a brain injury that sets a child up for autism. I'm going to study the research you posted and thanks again!

Cherry Sperlin Misra

Barry is absolutely right. It is no accident that the most important areas of autism research get the least money. It was no accident that the CDC went to South Korea when they wanted to go back to the old idea that autism is just a normal conditon . They know that mercury is causing autism, so if you want to find a country with a high rate of autism simply choose one that uses mercury-vaccines and eats fish too. And when they find a high rate of autism in that country, they imply that this is how it is all over the world. You wont find them going to India and doing a study of poor people who take few vaccines and never eat fish, just as you wont find them doing a study of children in the US who are not vaccinated. At all cost, they will maintain the illusion that autism is just inherited and it is the same the world over. In my opinion, one simple way to fight this is to tell everyone about the mercury in the flu vaccines so that they refuse them for their children.
When the mercury stops, the autism will too, and then we can point this out to the doctors, who up till now are still hypnotized with the false statement that "We took out the mercury and autism is still rising".


Thanks for clearing that up for me. Of course, that is right! All children are to be insured regardless of pre-existing conditions.

So, we get them insured, get them dignosed and then ask when they age out.

But I am glad you explained it to me, makes me feel a lot better. It really upset me to think some one as high up as Mike S. may have been untruthful. It is a comfort to me to know that is not the case.

Eileen Nicole Simon

Autism is associated with many different medical conditions. Research should focus on what brain systems vulnerable to all etiological factors are essential for language development and social awareness. The auditory pathway appears to be most important. In PubMed try autism & language & brain & language. This morning 75 citations show up, and I notice that #75 is my paper on echolalic speech. Look at #4 by Russo et al. and #5 by Kulesza et al. I have suggested to the IACC that they ask Dr. Kulesza to speak at the July meeting. I hope they will.

In a recent e-letter I responded to an article in Pediatrics by Manning et al. on autism in Massachusetts. I pointed out four seminal but long forgotten papers that should be read by all autism researchers:

(1) More than 50 years ago, auditory system damage was found in monkeys subjected to asphyxia at birth (note hypoxic birth is a common predisposition for autism).

(2) In 1964 follow-up research revealed that oxygen insufficiency at birth impairs the blood-brain-barrier of auditory system nuclei and the basal ganglia, allowing substances like bilirubin to gain entry to these sites in the brain.

(3) In 1969 the brains of monkeys subjected to asphyxia at birth did not follow a normal course of maturation, evidence of the kind of "under-connectivity" now repeatedly found in fMRI images of people with autism.

(4) Investigation of blood flow in the brain revealed that blood flow is highest in nuclei of the auditory pathway than in any other area of the brain, thus making these nuclei more vulnerable to any abnormal metabolite or toxic substance in the circulation.

In February 2009 I submitted a brief proposal to the IACC for animal research on vaccine injury based on these seminal papers, and posted it at:

I have felt very frustrated in trying to communicate with the IACC since November 2003. It is laughable that they have not made research on language development a priority.

My e-letter to Pediatrics, with references to the seminal papers mentioned above is at:


" The HHS needs to understand they have got to focus on helping children older than 3 and younger than 21! That is the bulk of the ASD population Dr. Parekh! We need environmental causation research and ASD medical research now- desperately, not the millionth screening campaign. We cannot screen and diagnose our way out of autism!"
AMEN!!! Thank you Katie! You do great work and you make great sense. If only you could be the head of the IACC!

Vicki Hill

"Dr. Parekh spoke at length about screening, early intervention and adult services." He may have spoken about adult services, but they are horribly missing today. Those with younger children need to be up in arms about this, because if today's young adults - the first wave of the ASD tsunami - can't find housing, jobs and appropriate care - what will happen in 10 or 15 years when your children are adults? Many government 'solutions' won't apply to them because so many do not have an IQ below 70. And most of the lovely places you may have heard about for 'the disabled' won't take them because they don't take 'behavior problems'. HUD won't help fund more housing; they have strict rules that won't allow more than about 3 or 4 in a group home and require group homes to be at least 4 blocks apart. People may look at your 8 yo funny when he acts out in public...but they will hide their children, or call the police, when your 18 yo does the same thing.

Tim Kasemodel


The preexisting conditions exclusions portion of health reform are phased in over time. For children 18 and under, they cannot now be denied coverage do to a pre-existing condition. For those age 19 and up the removal of pre-existing exclusion does not happen until January 1, 2014.

If there is a child on your insurance now, they can stay on until age 26.

Laura (Tim's wife and mother to Thomas)


What a day, it just keeps a piling;

I got a form letter from my Congressman Hal Rogers today because I ask him to go to the meeting that was annoucing that 83 familys whose children have been compensated by the vaccine court also had autism.

He tells me about autims!

He says 1.5 milliong Americans have it. He says that 2006 that the Congress gave the NIH and CDC 1 billion dollars.
He says"Like you I believe strongly that medical research is a vital field of study and in 2010, NIH received over $30.7 billion dollars to carry out its mission to reseach many disease and disorders including autims."

I believe that the NIH should be shut down and as far as the CDC is concerned - I'd like worse.

John Stone is right!
People that have never seen a disease are scarier of it that those that have.

My grandparents were never vaccinated againest small pox. My parents were not vaccinated againest it untill they were 10 years old. They never heard of it often or very servere.

Measles and Mumps we all had them, it was not that bad, at least not the way the doctors say in a hushed, fearful whisper that a child could die of measles. Oh Please!


I mean I hate to call someone an out right LIAR!


Thanks, Katie.

I keep thinking about how often ardent vaccine defenders say, "Well, you can't prove a negative..." in defense of studies that they hold up as proof/evidence of no link between autism and vaccines, rather than addressing the actual failures of these studies to honestly look at the question, nor the evidence that suggests an honest look would likely prove the positive.

How many more precious resources will be plied into the hunt for the elusive autism genes before the "mainstream" begins to admit the possibility that they are on the path of "proving a negative?" I'm pretty sure they are honestly attempting to look for a connection in this instance, although not particularly honest in representing the value of their results. I personally think there are inheritances involved in some cases of autism, but the inheritances are probably environmental insults or their effects, and all the more reason to get on with researching and cleaning up the environment IMO. Generations may be adversely affected by each missed opportunity, not to mention each lost opportunity to now help our injured.


Speaking of "Mike Strautmanis"

Mike Strautmanis sat right in that meeting last month and said that this was a topic he was interested in because he had a 14 year old son that had autism.

He said he would be keeping an eye on things.

He said that the President Obama administration had done some really great things for the autism community.

One thing they had done was make sure that health insurance companies could not denie health insurance because of autism.

Today I was talking to a health insurance broker, trying to get health insurance for my 25 year old son.

The broker went down a long list of health issues and all were no. After about the 20 thing he said autism..

I asked for more information.
He gave it to me. All forms of autism; Aspergers, Classic, PDD-NOS, tourettes are not accepted.

Tourettes was included under the autism dignosis.
Gee, tourettes was the only thing the medical doctor had said - the rest that said PDD-NOS was school, and a couple of psych well more than a couple but --- he was denied coverage.

I thought they would get me on epilepsy --- I did not know it would be AUTISM.

So, is it not kicked in yet???
Mike spoke as if it was a done in the books deal at the meeting.

Jenny Allan

How can an article with the following heading possibly be a 'really balanced article'??

"Hysteria about false vaccine risks often overshadows the challenges of detecting the real ones."

We are not 'hysterical'; we acknowledge the 'challenges' presented by identifying vaccine safety risks. We are simply asking for a 'safety first' agenda when unforseen vaccine side effects manifest themselves. This might mean withdrawal of a particular vaccine until more research is carried out. Often, the vaccine can be modified to make it safer.

The editorial accompanying this article points to the success of the single measles vaccine in reducing measles mortality worldwide. The much vilified Dr Andrew Wakefield, merely suggested going back to this tried and tested vaccine until more research was carried out into the safety of the MMR. Instead huge sums of money have been poured into what amounts to a 'public relations' exercise to promote confidence in the MMR vaccine.

Meantime, autism and a huge list of child morbidities including diabetes, asthma, bowel disease and epilepsy continue to increase exponentially.

Where will it end??



Nature's "Vaccines: The real issues in vaccine safety" is just laughable. A sham. A coverup.

The vaccine powers-to-be have been setting the goal posts all too cosy:
Is the adverse event related to the vaccine? Let's do some 'very difficult' statistical studies to find out!


They do not study causation. They don't want to know. They persuaded all of us little people that statistics IS the definitive tool to establish causation.


After more than 60 years of modern vaccine science, there's still no scientific framework for determining causative links between a vaccine and an adverse event.


If left to the 'industry' 600 more years will pass and they will still use statistics to determine causation. Hell, why not, you can prove whatever you want with statistics.

How about some BIOLOGICAL studies on vaccines and adverse events? Could anybody care to find a biological (rather than statistical) link between Pandemrix and Narcolepsy?


John Stone

Error in my last but one post 3rd para:

"Of course, this isn't particularly true. People who have never seen diseases may well be persuaded they represent a greater hazard to them than they necessarily do: they may either not be particularly dangerous in some CASES or particularly common in others, but when a child is getting >100 vaccines that in itself represents a considerable level of risk, even if the production standards of the bizarrely cossetted vaccine manufacturers were much more exemplary than they are..."

John Stone

PS Eindekker

Did you see my post last week:

John Stone


Some not uninteresting points in the article: a big problem about hard data. When it comes down to stuff like:

"Researchers are quick to emphasize that the benefits of vaccines still greatly outweigh the risks."

this is really sentiment, not science and largely unmeasurable.

"But as diseases recede from the public's memory, the population's tolerance for side effects will drop even further. "If you don't know the diseases and you haven't seen them, then you really aren't willing to accept any risk," says Edwards."

Of course, this isn't particularly true. People who have never seen diseases may well be persuaded they represent a greater hazard to them than they necessarily do: they may either not be particularly dangerous in some or particularly common in others, but when a child is getting >100 vaccines that in itself represents a considerable level of risk, even if the production standards of the bizarrely cossetted vaccine manufacturers were much more exemplary than they are. Also, it can be greatly exaggerated how much the decline in child mortality was related to the introduction of vaccines as opposed to improved living conditions: clean water, sanitation, nutrition, warm houses etc. Basically, the sustainability of the vaccine programme has been based on the health authorities maintaining in propaganda terms the balance of terror, and on the whole it has to be said they are quite successful.

"Despite scientists' best efforts, eliminating risk is impossible. Vaccines are biological products with biological effects, says Juhani Eskola, deputy director general of Finland's National Institute for Health and Welfare in Helsinki. "We can never make them 100% safe.""

I don't know why we are supposed to believe that companies like GSK, Merck, Eli Lilly - with their records - turn fastidious just because are manufacturing vaccines.

Actually, I see quite different picture now, quite apart from the flimsiness of the epidemiological research allegedly supporting vaccine safety I see a lot of peer review research appearing which supports the concerns of people on this site.

The article mentions the withrawal of Offit's first rotavirus vaccine in 1999 by the FDA, but it doesn't mention the current fiasco over withdrawing the license for GSK rotavirus vaccine because it was found to contain pig virus, and then restoring the license when the Merck/Offit version was found to have it as well.

As to the Brighton Collaboration - when I last looked at it - it seemed to be a lot of health bureaucrats in vestigating themselves, and can you guess what they found?


John can I recommend a really balanced article published in Nature this week on vaccine safety and the efforts to minimize risk, it seems to give an excellent overview of the processes undertaken pre and post licensing of vaccines, I'd appreciate your thoughts. There's a whole series of articles addressing vaccine issues in this issue.
You've never mentioned the "Brighton Collaboration" in your postings, why, it seems to be a credible international effort to investigate vaccine safety, have you come across it?

Bob Moffitt

I share the same frustrations as others when I read of the enormous amount of monies I consider to have been "wasted" on clearly demonstrated .. unsuccessful .. unproductive research .. as described in Katie's column.

I recommend AoA readers re-visit "The Town of Allopath"

it is a very funny .. yet very sad .. true representation of mis-spent research monies on "experts" .. whose research conclusions are more "problem" than "solution".

John Stone

Re-posting my comment earlier today under my open letter NIH Director Francis Collins:

Just to note Katie Wright's article today documents the continuing neglect of vital environmental studies in autism. Five years after Collins spoke the procrastination goes on.

I am watching at this moment a tribute to Collins on his retirement from NHGRI. Dr Elias Derhouni declares "He speaks truth to power like nobody else", and Dr Alan Guttmacher Collins's deputy who introduces the event also remarks along the line that he is also not frightened to listen. (Thomas Insel's tribute runs from about 24 mins in)

Well, perhaps Collins will ignore me - everyone says he will. It should be said that if you look up Collins on google news my letter, two days later, is still the first item, so perhaps he ought take a look.

It should also be said (as I listen to all the wonderful professional back-slapping going on in the You-Tube video) that it will show a great absence of vision if he rests on his laurels over the Human Genome Project when the bigger health issues today lie elsewhere. It is time to do something different.


This makes me so mad. No matter how much money there is it is all wasted. It is impossibe for government not to just waste money.

Congress debates the debt sealing when all they really need to do is shut down or drastically reduce the funds for NIH, EPA, CDC, maybe the FDA; and all would be well with the world, or at least almost.


I agree that this summary puts matters in perspective, but I don't see it as procrastination.

This is pure obfuscation, constructed by the very same people who know full well what is causing the autism epidemic, but who also know that an admission of that truth will put many of them jail. They're putting a lot of effort into looking busy, but they're really just going in circles. Premeditated circles.

Our children are the victims of an unspeakable crime, and the crime continues as the perpetrators continue to hide what they've done. Unfortunately, all we do is keep trying to expose them.

John Stone

Thanks Katie it really puts matters into perspective and links up closely with my letter to NIH chief, Francis Collins, who had already stated 5 years ago that the rise in autism must be environmental:

So, the evidence is that we have seen five years of procrastination, and the two years that Collins has been at the head of the NIH has seen only marginal improvement. It is also evident from many sources that Collins and IACC Chairman Thomas Insel are closely associated.


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