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Is Low Risk of Seizures Low Enough for Parents Facing MMR and Chicken Pox Vaccines?

Suited-man-head-in-sand From USA Today. My oldest had a febrile seizure. And then a four year  grand mal seizure ordeal. You do not want to witness your child having a seizure. The first may not be the last. KS
The NYT ran an article today HERE, and takes a more cautionary approach than the USA Today version, suggesting breaking up the vaccines for safety.

Toddlers who get a vaccine that combines the measles-mumps-rubella and chickenpox immunizations are at twice the usual risk for fevers that lead to convulsions, a new study reports.

By Liz Szabo, USA TODAY

Combining two common childhood immunizations — the chickenpox vaccine and the joint measles, mumps and rubella shot, or MMR — slightly increases the risk of fever-related seizures in toddlers, a new study shows.

Authors note that the overall risk of seizures is very low.

All four vaccinations are critically important, and experts say that children shouldn't skip or delay any of them. And while fever-related seizures may be frightening to parents, they aren't actually serious and don't cause permanent harm, says Nicola Klein, author of the study in today's Pediatrics.

Parents who are concerned may want to ask for two separate shots — MMR and chickenpox — instead of taking the four-in-one combination called ProQuad, says Klein, co-director of the Kaiser Permanente Vaccine Study Center in California...


Smarter mother of 4

I now have a 18 year old daughter who is mentally challanged DUE to vaccines. When she was 18 months old she had the regular vaccines. That afternoon she went into a grand mal seizures that lasted 4 hours (ask the staff at Vanderbilt in Nashville, Tennessee). There were three other children in there for the same problems and I was informed by medical staff, those children had the vaccines also and then had the seizures. My daughter had seizures for 13 years and now cannot live on her own, drive a car, get a good job, nor care for herself totally. This is what vaccines did for my child. Needless to say, my last two children did NOT recieve vaccines and they are 100% more healthy than my first two. They have not even had a cold. Odd? Unusual? No, I believe the vaccines ARE toxic to the body. In more extreme cases, they kill our children.


How about a simple study including children w/ Down syndrome (since they are 10 time more likely to develop autism)?
Study the following groups:
1. Typical children with conventional vaccination schedule (control)
2. Conventional schedule for children with DS (DS control)
3. Schedule with separated shots with a less aggressive schedul for typical children
4. Schedule with separated shots with a less aggressive schedule for children with DS

We can settle the debate once and for all...

Tracy McDermott

I googled varicella and mmr together to pull the recent media on this topic and ironically found this from exactly one year ago -

"In doing so, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) rejected the opinion of the majority of members on the working group that crafted options for the vaccination recommendations.

Most members supported separate administrations of the MMR and varicella vaccines because of a lower risk for febrile seizures in the first two weeks after receiving the shots."


We were advised at a military clinic, that they did not give Varicella and MMR at the same time since it was too many live viruses and they weren't comfortable with it. Contrast this to the other base in town, which also houses the military's flagship hospital (Wilford Hall) where they happily give them all at once. Luckily, we were at the clinic, and then when I took my son in for Varicella, they were out of it. Shucks. At 18 mths we stopped vaccinating because we were starting to see problems and at 2 he was diagnosed with autism. Aside from an ER visit for a cut finger, since we started biomed and stopped listening to pediatricians, we haven't actually had any reason to go to a doctor at all. I will never vaccinate him again. Just too much risk for too little benefit.


My grandson had the Proquad vaccine in 2007 at 13 months. He had already been diagnosed with asthma at 6 months.
Two days after receiving this vaccine, he started spinning with his arm and finger extended like a compass hand and around and around he went.
Then he started losing all that he had gained. His health went first. He became very sick, always ill and never smiling. He began to drool and he started obsessive behaviors. He eventually lost all of his words. He no longer made eye contact and he was eventually diagnosed with autism at 2 1/2 years old.
The former Proquad vaccine is much worse than just receiving MMR and Varicella separately. Merck increased the varicella component some 10 times that of the regular varicella vaccine.
I am sickened that they would dare to bring this hideous vaccine back to the market. I am sure they have adjusted the varicella, hoping to limit their exposure, but the whole idea of 4 live viruses, all of which that are nerve damaging, in one vaccine is insane.


I just read this on

"Singer, whose daughter has autism, tried the GFCF diet and vitamins but she has now turned her back on biomed. 'You're exposing your child to risk with no evidence it will help," she says. 'I have a daughter, not a guinea pig. She deserves better.'"

She's exposing her child to risk by denying her baguettes? What a hoot!

Anne McElroy Dachel

Vaccines are admittedly linked to seizures?
But we're told they've harmless. They may be connected to the vaccines but so what?

When my daughter was 10, she got the HepB. Shortly afterwards, she went into convulsions during the night. She stopped breathing. I was afraid she was going to die before the ambulance got there.

No one knew what caused her seizures. She had them for three years afterwards. It's what caused me to study vaccine side effects.

Eleven years later, I understand what vaccines are doing to children and none of it is good.

Anne Dachel


Yes, I am very sure they do.
I read on the internet just last year the adventure of a 50 something woman. She had moved to a new job, bought herself a new home, a cabin that she was strong enough to work on herself. Her job required a tetanus shot, and as soon as she had it her muscles strated killing her. .
She tells about how she had a hard time finding a lawyer, how she had to do almost all of it herself, how she had to get a muscle biopsy, while she was waiting lost her home, her job, had to get on SS. They offered her 5,000 dollars which she refused, but never told what she ended up with.

Theresa O

I'm with Kathy Blanco on the chickenpox... It's beyond ludicrous to call the chickenpox vaccine critical.

It's interesting to note that the statement "All four vaccinations are critically important," is not attributed to anyone by the USA Today reporter, and the additional comment that "experts say that children shouldn't skip or delay any of them" is not explained. Fewer than 200 deaths per year (in the US) have been attributed to chickenpox since 1975, when government officials began keeping track. (According to this site:
"Before vaccination for varicella became widespread in the United States, this disease caused as many as 100 deaths annually")

The rationale behind immunization against varicella is not that your particular child is likely to be harmed by natural infection with chickenpox; rather, it's part of the CDC's attempt to eradicate the disease entirely. Risking adverse events (including febrile seizures) in order to eradicate an ordinarily harmless disease that may be associated with, on average, 100 deaths per year (in a country of 280 million people) is probably not something most parents would consider "critical." It's critical to Merck's profits and critical to the government's plan to eradicate every communicable disease, one at a time, while allowing chronic illnesses among children to skyrocket.

Then we have the issue of changing the disease ecosystem. What previously low-incidence disease will step into the chickenpox void? What about the risk of congenital varicella syndrome (30 years from now) for the (in utero) children of this current generation of kids who will grow up not getting chickenpox?

The idea that getting vaccinated against varicella--let alone getting hit with four live viruses at once--is in any child's best interest is a blatant lie. This whole ProQuad fiasco infuriates me, and the complicity of any pediatrician in the whole thing is unforgivable. Bensmyson, I am so sorry for what you went through, and if I had a million dollars, I'd buy ads in every newspaper in the country with your story. People need to know the truth, and a slippery USA Today piece is not going to be enough.


My grandchildren went to a chickenpox party and got chickenpox along with three other kids. The set of 5 has now passed it along to several more, who will probably pass it on further (all sharing by parental request, of course). So there are parents who are smart enough to realize that there is an alternative to obediently getting every vaccine that the CDC recommends.

Here is a nice description of what chickenpox used to be:

It breaks my heart to hear how the medical mafia treats people who trust them to take care of their children.


When people are compensated by vaccine court, are they forced to sign a nondisclosure agreement?

I think it would be useful to have a site where people could report the damages done to their loved ones by vaccines and on favorable (or unfavorable) judgments given them in vaccine court.


Peds told me that 75Percent of children with a "ferbile" seizure disorder will out grow it.

24 years later, I just want to say it is more like they grow into it.
Son had mild undignosed seizures that grew and grew and grew till finally by 17 grandmals and epilepsy.

Now, I have a 28 year old daughter that is growing into them now, Hep B two years ago cause stiffness, high sed rates, and high C reactive protein to return, and a flu shot last fall,brought mannia by Christmas, pyschosis by mother's day, seizures by father's day. We are so proud.


My nephew became diabetic within a few weeks of getting ProQuad. Of course he also had a bunch of other vaccines at the same time. I think it's criminal to put this vaccine back on the market.


Is Nicola Klein a neurologist? She directs a vaccine study center for Kaiser Permanente. Sounds more statistical than clinical.

How does she know that no brain damage occurs? Particularly following fevers above 105 degrees... an MRI scan would tell how much of the brain got baked. But of course HMO's aren't going to pay for that.

Carol, thanks for posting about the 2007 Vestergaard study. After my son had his febrile seizures, I didn't know why the neurologist prescribed Tegretol. So far, no relapse. I wonder how many medical professionals know what's happening, but aren't speaking out....


It's nearly impossible to find statistics on the rise in seizure disorders, just like it's difficult to get the government to track the rise in autism accurately. The mainstream admits that seizures are more prevalent with autism (way, way more prevalent- reportedly 60% or more of children with autism are effected) and this should be reflected in statistics since we know that the autism rate has exploded. But the stats are fuzzy.

I believe there's a lot of obfuscation and the reasons for it are obvious-- child health has tanked in the US and the trend started with the increase in vaccines/vaccine toxins. On top of that, the market for anticonvulsants has exploded. Share holders now expect the profits and industry has a tiger by the tail and can't let go. One can imagine how this could reduce industry's incentive for taking measures to stop the epidemic.

kathy blanco

Chicken pox is critical? I mean, perceptions have changed haven't they? What about the new threat of shingles in adults? Or like many in the fifties who got the measles, and have life long immunity, possibly no threat of MS or brain demylination syndromes now? I have a son with seizures, and they are directly DPT related. In jounrals, they say 10-13 days after DPT, in MICE, is where they see the most reactions, even death. My child reacted on day eleven, go figure, and thanks VAERS for your concern...not. This like every other venture, to get more vaccines in one pop makes me sick, because they know if the informed parent get's their hands on this page, and other scientific journals, they will being to see a devastating pattern of lies and perceptional manipulation through mass media, and heresay. Seizures are a sign the brain has been infiltrated by something the body cannot handle, brainiac immune system 101. Oxidative stress, folks...oxidative stress..


CNN volunteers additional information on what "febrile seizures" do not cause:

"'Febrile seizures are benign,' Klein says, meaning they're generally not dangerous. 'They are very frightening to parents, but do not lead to long-term seizures or epilepsy.' The American Academy of Pediatrics agrees: 'While febrile seizures may be very scary, they are harmless to the child. Febrile seizures do not cause brain damage, nervous system problems, paralysis, mental retardation, or death.'"

So I guess if any of the above happens to become apparent following on of these seizures, be assured it's just coincidence...?

Bob Moffitt

Julie wrote:

"Are seizures normal now, too? These people are insane."

How much damage must occur before we change "insane" to "criminal"?

Jennifer Hutchinson

One of my grandson's pediatricians told my daughter that, since she's so worried about vaccines, she'd be happy to know that the number has been reduced by combining the MMR and chicken pox shot. And no, sadly, I'm not kidding.


well, some people can actually remember when they and their kids had chicken pox and KNOW that it isn't the frickin' end of the world. Silly peds.


Why would someone not trust the Vioxx people with the health of their children ??

If someone came out with a 6 dose vaccine for Autism (that is... to prevent Autism) many would line up to take it.


I'm wondering if anyone knows of documentation to support something?

A couple years back I was watching a download of a panel at an Autism One conference. I remember David Kirby and Dan Olmsted were on the panel. During the Q&A section a parent mentioned that the CDC had advised physicians at some point not to give the varicella vax with the MMR (which his child had received) because they were seeing increased incidence of neurological damage with the combination. I looked up my affected daughter's record because of this and at her one year checkup she received both MMR & varicella, so the comment has stood out in my mind, but I've never heard this mentioned again.

Assuming this did happen, it really bothers me that they even decided to attempt making the Proquad vax in the first place. Then they compare Proquad to this combination to determine risk.

Tony Bateson

When are the profound experiences of parents going to overcome the sterile and cold rejection by medics of their worst nightmares when their child reacted badly to vaccines?

My first two children reacted so badly (two years apart and forty years ago) their mother and her mother (I was away) thought they might just die. And of course if this is the experience of one set of parents it must be that long term damage is possible (my daughter became autistic) and that some kids do die. But of course as all our medics said afterwards it couldn't possibly be the vaccines. Well now we know it damn well was the vaccines.

Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.


Seizures are like watching your child die violently. I will never be the same and neither is he.


If giving the V separately from the MMR is significantly safer, maybe breaking the shots up into M, M, R and V would safer still.

I'm not a doctor so I can't be kicked out of the profession for suggesting it.

Lori Feldman

I think it's interesting that The CDC discredited and retracted the doctor's findings that found a possible link regarding autism and the MMR vaccine just in time for the Proquad vaccine to make a come back. If it's all about making money for big pharmaceutical companies than why not make the separate antigens for MMR and give the parents the choice to pay out of pocket for the separate shots? My son will be two in September and he's not getting the MMR shot or Proquad.My son gets one or two shots at the most. He has had adverse reactions causing severe thrush after both vaccinations. He is never sick, was breastfed for one year but every time he gets a shot five days later he has thrush, fevers and diarrhea. I'm supposed to want to rush out and give him this Proquad shot...I don't think so.


My nephew died from a gran mal seizure 2 years ago, at the age of 7. He began having his seizures immediately after his 4 month "wellness appt" where he received numerous vaccines. Late last year, the Feds conceded that his seizures were brought on by the vaccines he received. Dangerous?? I would say more like life threatening, or deadly.


There are 26 VAERS reports linking MMRV to autism or autism spectrum disorder. Most of these reports detail significant medical events after receiving MMRV. Since we know that vaccines don't cause autism, this must be a coincidence.


Julie said: "These people are insane."

I agree and the denial is stunning. It feels like sociopaths are running the show.

Insane? yes.

I think about the insanity every time I take my son to therapy as I watch vaccine injured children come and go. I think how autism has become the new normal, how people in the medical community have bought into this lie, the enormous amount of $$ spent on research. Look at all the infrastructure that's sprung up just to manage our kids and how the exploitation of our kids continues. All based on a lie.

It's all because they'll never admit they screwed up..Some people simply cannot fathom the truth others so they go into denial mode. I suspect others know the truth full well but, for a variety of reasons, they keep their mouths shut lest they be ostracised.

It's like the the tale of Emporers New Clothes only it's real.

Donna L.

Kim, the picture you chose says it all. Thanks for the laugh!


How can our mainstream medical folks acknowledge that vaccines can cause febrile seizures, yet continue to deny that vaccines can affect the brain?

Some kids suffer febrile seizures without lasting consequences, but some do have lasting consequences. And those who have seizures may just be the tip of the iceburg; some may suffer lasting effects on the brain and immune system without having seizures.

Dr. Paul Offit, you idiot, how can you claim that your mathematical calculation proves infants can receive 10,000 (or 100,000) vaccines, when clearly adding an additional vaccine to the mix in this case increases the risk of seizures?

Like julie said, are seizures the new normal? Just to be accepted, move along, no cause for concern?

Maureen H. McDonnell, RN

Are we living in the theater of the absurd? How can anyone with half a brain look at what is going on and not see how insane this discussion has become? It's like the bulk of the population drank the Kool Aid which keeps them blind and ignorant to the real causes of the autism epidemic. Maybe this new information on the increased risk of seizures when the MMR is combined with the chickenpox vaccine will ignite more awareness and hopefully lead to some healthy skepticism. Those of us who are awake have to take advantage of every little crack in the propaganda armor and hope this news generates questions, doubt and refusal on the part of many parents to subject their children to these unsafe, unproven practices.
Maureen McDonnell, RN
Saving Our Kids, Healing Our Planet

John Stone

A small bit of commonsense - chicken-pox vaccination is still not considered advisable in the UK:


Unprovoked seizures in the first year of life is a substantial risk for ASD:


From "The Long-Term Risk of Epilepsy after Febrile Seizures in Susceptible Subgroups," Vestergaard et al., 2007

"We found that febrile seizure was associated with an increased risk of epilepsy that lasted into adulthood. The rate was highest shortly after the first febrile seizure, especially for children who experienced early (less than 1 year) or late onset (greater than 3 years) of febrile seizures. The overall cumulative incidence of epilepsy after febrile seizures was 6.9 percent at 23 years of follow-up. The risk was particular high for persons with cerebral palsy, low Apgar scores, or a family history of epilepsy."


We stopped vaccinating my oldest at 6 months, so glad we did, he only had 2 seizure's. How much worse would it have been if we had continued shots. No parent should have to go through this and an increased risk of febrile seizure's is not an acceptable side affect of vaccine's. What have we come to when that is considered ok.


Nicole Klein, when she said those words or wrote them had to blush, or maybe she was just to stupid to blush.


Another excellent report about ProQuad by Dan from his days at the UPI

The Age of Autism: Pox -- Part 1

Posted on: Tuesday, 18 April 2006, 00:00 CDT


Children in families with problematic reactions to chickenpox virus may be at risk for developing autism if they get that live-virus immunization too close to other live-virus vaccines, a three-month United Press International investigation of cases in one northwest U.S. city suggests.

Several such families in the Washington state capital of Olympia watched their children regress into full-syndrome autism -- losing language and social skills and adopting repetitive behaviors -- in the months following the shots. Two children had participated in small clinical trials in Olympia of investigational Merck & Co. chickenpox vaccines in combination with the live-virus mumps-measles-rubella vaccine -- the MMR.

Federal health authorities consistently have rejected concerns about a link between immunizations and autism. But a family background of problems coping with viruses used in live-virus vaccines has not been considered a possible risk factor, experts said.

One of the children in the clinical trials, Jimmy Flinton, now 4, got about 10 times the standard dose of chickenpox vaccine in a shot that also contained the MMR.

Called ProQuad, that combined immunization was approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration last September -- the first time four attenuated or weakened live viruses have been mixed together in a single shot.

The second child, Timothy Baltzley, now 6, got an investigational process upgrade chickenpox shot and a separate MMR shot at the same office visit.

Both children have a parent who had unusual reactions to chickenpox virus.

Timothy's Baltzley's mother, Kimberly, had chickenpox three times, the last at age 16, just three years before he was born. Jimmy Flinton's father, Paul, had shingles as a teenager. Shingles is reactivated chickenpox virus that painfully inflames nerves and mostly affects older people or those with weakened immune systems.

Both children got the vaccines at 12 months, the age at which chickenpox and MMR immunizations are first recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. They were among a total of 101 subjects in the two trials in Olympia, according to the Western Institutional Review Board, which approved the trial protocols.

Half-a-dozen other parents of preschool-age autistic children from the same neighborhood in Olympia recognized a common thread: unusual chickenpox histories in their families and simultaneous or closely timed chickenpox and MMR shots in their children.

It's the proximity of the chickenpox and MMR vaccinations and the family histories that stand out, said Denise Rohrbeck, mother of 3-year-old Grant.

Rohrbeck has not been able to develop immunity to chickenpox despite being twice vaccinated as an adult, the last time just two years before her son was born. A couple of months before he got the standard chickenpox and MMR shots at the same office visit at age 1, Grant had a stubborn and severe case of roseola, which like chickenpox is a herpesvirus.

Four days after the MMR and chickenpox injections he became ill with a fever and lay limp in his mother's arms for the first time in his life.

He began having chronic diarrhea, and by his 15-month checkup he had regressed so drastically that his pediatrician suggested he could be autistic, Rohrback recalled. The doctor agreed to the parents' request for an immediate neurodevelopmental evaluation, which resulted in a diagnosis of full-syndrome autism.

Rohbeck said she began looking for a possible connection between vaccines and autism among neighborhood children after the Thurston County Health Department did not follow up on parents' concerns raised at a meeting last October. With the parents' continued involvement, she has now compiled vaccination records of 14 Olympia children diagnosed with autism, as well as 16 who are not.

The admittedly unscientific chickenpox-MMR association continues to be striking, and the two cases following the clinical trials seemed to underscore it, she said.

A Merck spokeswoman said the company reported those two cases to the FDA this March -- the same month UPI asked Merck about them.

We just received these reports in March 2006, six months after ProQuad was approved in the U.S., and they were sent to the FDA after we received them, Merck's Christine Fanelle said in a statement. She said Merck received the two reports of autism AEs from Olympia -- one from the parent of a child in the ProQuad trial and one from the parent of a child in (the 'process upgrade' chickenpox) study.

Parents Jennifer Flinton and Kimberly Baltzley say they never called Merck and wouldn't know who to contact there; last summer, Jennifer Flinton reported Jimmy's autism to the federal government's Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System, attributing it to the cumulative effects of vaccination. The federal health employee she spoke to on the phone said she would follow up by gathering lot numbers and other information on the vaccines.

The parents said their pediatrician, who conducted both of the Merck-funded trials in Olympia, knew about their children's autism diagnoses within months of their participation in January 2001 and October 2002.

The Olympia trials were part of wider Merck studies conducted at several sites in the United States and abroad. Fanelle said Merck would not disclose information about any other reports of autism.

We have confirmed your original inquiry on whether we received the two reports out of Olympia, she said. "We are not going to comment on reports beyond this.


ProQuad is what did my son in, Im dying inside because of the news that this vaccine is being re-released back into the market. I can not describe the anger inside me over this. It's like following behind a drunk driver as he steers his way through a maze of innocent children, will he hit all of them, some of them, what can I do to stop him?

ProQuad cost about $124, sales of the vaccine amounted to over 2 billion dollars in revenue for Merck, during the 2 years it was on the market. This is about money.

The idea that febrile seizures are nothing to worry about is deadly. How do you tell a febrile seizure from a seizure related to meningitis? You cant without blood work. Yeah it scares parents, it should also scare the doctors in the emergency room when you take him in. How do you tell a febrile seizure from an episode of encephalitis? Nothing to worry about huh? Right!

Dan did an excellent job in his reporting of this vaccine.

I discovered on the the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) Web site that ProQuad has had two deaths, Merck themselves attributed these deaths to the vaccine. Both were submitted on November 3rd and entered in on November 4th. (VAERS ID 331196 & 331194) . There were two other deaths reported the same year bringing the death total to 4.

Getting ready for our neice's visit with us in a couple of weeks, my wife pulled the bassinet out of storage, Ben crawled into it and pretended to go to sleep. He was so still, we actually thought he might have gone to sleep. But what he did next was really kind of weird, in a cute way, but still a twilight zone kinda weird.

There's a little music box attachment to the bassinet and we punched the buttons to see if it still worked, after all it's been 4 years, anyway when the music started playing Ben asked Erica to dance with him. Erica took his hands and started dancing, he said, "No mommy, up, up, pull" So she lifted him up and he leaned back until she held him in a cradled position. Erica rocked back and forth, swaying to the Brahms lullaby and Ben closed his eyes and just lay there touching his hair as he used to do constantly. A couple of minutes went by then he stuck his finger in her mouth, same as he did 4 years ago when she rocked him. That music brought back memories you'd think he forgot after 4 years.

Erica once asked me if I thought he could remember the day he got his shots, and I've always wondered if he remembered how things were prior to the shots, how he used to be able to do certain things. Now we wonder why he's so mad sometimes.

Needless to say I am concerned that Merck is planning to reissue this vaccine into the market, a vaccine that by all account and purposes is used strictly as a convenience. I might not be sure why Ben gets so angry, but I know why I get that way.

When Erica asked Ben's pediatrician about the vaccines that day, she was told that, "vaccines are safe" what he didn't tell her was what the manufacturer says about ProQuad,

Rare but serious adverse events reported following ProQuad vaccination include allergic reactions, including swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; difficulty breathing or closing of the throat; hives; paleness; weakness; dizziness; a fast heart beat; deafness; long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness; permanent brain damage; seizures; or temporary low platelet count. According to information from CDC, MMRV vaccine has been associated with higher rates of fever (up to about 1 person in 5) and measles-like rash (about 1 person in 20) compared with MMR and varicella vaccines given separately.

At the very least this same pediatrician who treated Ben months earlier for a 107 fever should have suggested waiting. I mean after-all the label also warned the following:

For individuals who are moderately or severely ill, it is generally recommended that they wait until after recovery before getting ProQuad.

No one checked to see if he recovered. The blood work taken that day showed he didn't recover, he was still quite sick and no one said a word.

I guess I'm a lot like Ben, some things I'll never forget, ever.


Are seizures normal now, too? These people are insane.

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