I am truly convinced that there are genes particular children are born with in which their bodies react badly to a particular vaccine. My husband and i made an informed choice not to vaccinate our child. We didnt know which one/s he could or would have an adverse reaction to, the risks were not worth it. Im not saying a child can or can not be born with Autism. I just feel vaccines can make the condition worse. Im sure this is obvious to most of the parents on this thread. Just feel vaccines are all together are dangerous.

Twyla,

"BillyJoe said, "This is why they have clinical studies and clinical trials." But so far there have not been any clinical studies or trials comparing health outcomes in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children."

I was commenting about the unreliabliltiy of "personal experience" and that clinical trials or studies are needed because of that.

I didn't say anything about whether or not these trials have been done. That is another discussion.

Jessica,

"Parents don't know shit"

Well, perhaps it's more accurate to say that people don't always know what they think they know.

This actually applies to individual doctors as well. There are doctors who use certain treatments based on their "personal experience" with using the treatment on their own patients. When it is pointed out to them that all the clinical trials say the treatment does not work, they stubbornly continue to use it on their patients because of the conviction that their "personal experience" cannot be wrong.

It is false to think they you can know everything through "personal experience" and it applies equally to mothers and doctors. It applies to everyone.
This is why they have clinical studies and clinical trials.

The HepB shot at birth (with two in the series to follow within months) is the one that breaks my heart the most.

My child (the one with 40+ food reactions) broke out in a horrible rash and became extremely lethargic after the first one when he was born (I have the pictures). After seeing www.iansvoice.org I realize that he may be lucky to be alive. At the time I was told it was "mother's hormones" which I should have known was wrong (older brother, who didn't start the series until 4 months, didn't do this).

And having breast-fed my older child for a good number of months, I never could understand why my little one had a much harder time nursing(now I may have the answer after that primate study with HepB - thanks AofA).

Ozmun:
"If you now accept (as the studies show) that MMR and thiomersal are not linked to an increase in the likelihood of autism you need to say what specifically needs to be studied."

Please provide a link to any study that documents autism rates in children born after thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines (other than flu). As I'm sure you know, thimerosal was removed from most vaccines by 2001, but stocks of remaining stocks of thimerosal-containing vaccines continued in use through at least 2003. A study documenting autism rates post-thimerosal removal would therefore need to include only children born in 2004 or later.

I'd appreciate a link. Thanks in advance.

ozmum,
I suspect vaccines, the MMR and DTaP in particular, because my son had a adverse reaction. To specify, he developed a fever of 105, had seizures, and developed an encepalopathy (we have CT scans of his brain). Afterwards, he lost all speech, lost the ability to walk until he was almost 3, and lost nearly every developmental milestone. I'm quite certain that many parents here can tell you similar stories. And we're supposed to expect this is coincidental? When even the CDC acknowledges that reactions like this occur? If the vaccines didn't cause this, what did?

Thimerosal is hardly ruled out because it is still in vaccines given routinely to children and pregnant women. And if you read the study in question, symptoms of autism began to appear in SOME of the children before administration of MMR. That is why the study says that they began seeing signs between 6 and 18 months.

The simple fact of the matter is that vaccines are still a concern. They will continue to be a concern until all avenues are pursued. We already know that the DTP vaccine caused brain damage in children it was administered to, which is why they changed the formulation to DTaP. But the MMR is the only vaccine studied in depth, and those studies are so riddled with methodological errors and data manipulation that a 10 year old can see them.

Additionally in response to Craig W. (and yourself) as I understand the claim made is that a child has a vaccine (most commonly nominated is the MMR - witness the recent vaccine court cases) and then the parents witness (to quote Craig W) "With my son, the reaction was within 6 hours of his MMR/DTaP vaccination at 18 months. Many parents here have almost the exact same story." I have no doubts that many of the parents here feel and watched a similar thing - I myself watched as my happy little boy withdrew and turned in on himself. The irony is that the study discussed in this article shows that whilst we saw what we did we also missed other warning signs and symptoms, most likely because they were only slight. If you could go back in time (the authors used video) you can spot the child displaying autistic tendenices at 6months....months or even in the case of Craig W a year before the MMR was given to the child.

We know it is not thiomersal (diagnosis of autism has continued to rise since it was removed), we know it can't be MMR (which is given after the first signs emerge).

I know why you suspected the MMR (timeliness) What makes you suspect other vaccines now? and which one specifically?

Jessica, may I make a suggestion?

Are there really 36 vaccines by the time a child is 2? Or is it 36 doses of 14 or so vaccines? I think we need to clarify that number because the Oraccolytes love to nitpick that small detail.

The rest of your argument is valid. They have looked at 1 vaccine and 1 ingredient, and are using that to say that it vindicates all vaccines and all ingredients.

Jessica F said
Ozmum,

This is such a tired, boring argument. Just like I asked "Kim D", what other enviornmental issue do you think we should be looking at? Just name one. I dare you. People that make this argument never, ever do.

Okay, my suggestion is to look at the in utero environment of the child, particularly excessive testosterone (which ties to the fact of more boys than girls affected) (actually I know there are studies of this type currently being pursued in my country - in particular at the Uni I am currently attending). Brain disorders of the type being discussed are usually set by the time a child is born (and as the study discussed here starts to show physically in early life).

BTW as for "diagnosing" my family members - I am not claiming they were/are autistic/aspies - simply that they displayed many of the criteria used for diagnosis today in the DSM IV TR. (which I studied when I got my degree in Behav. Sci.)

Additionally, the people I know I met through Autism support groups...just like yourself.

Ozmum, the reason why so many of us are focused on vaccines is because so many of us saw our child go through a serious adverse event associated with a vaccination. With my son, the reaction was within 6 hours of his MMR/DTaP vaccination at 18 months. Many parents here have almost the exact same story.

But what Novella and Orac are telling us is that what we experienced didn't happen. What we saw was a figment of our imaginations. But they can't tell us what is causing autism. All they can tell us is that the reactions our children had were simply coincidental to the timing of vaccination.

You can't tell me that coincidence happens that often. That is an argument that falls into Oraccian levels of stupidity.

Ozmum,

This is such a tired, boring argument. Just like I asked "Kim D", what other enviornmental issue do you think we should be looking at? Just name one. I dare you. People that make this argument never, ever do.

We tend to hang out with people who have similar interests/beliefs we do. Therefore, it makes sense your pack of buddies don't believe in a vaccine/autism link. Every affected family I am friends with believes there is. See what a dumb argument that is?

You should excercise caution diagnosing your family members so you can claim genetics is the largest factor at play. It's like all of these media types diagnosing dead historical figures with autism. Gimme a break.

Also - which "large study" are you referring to that showed no link between vaccines and autism? That's vaccine(s), the plural word, meaning more than one - 36 vaccines specifically. I'm dying to read it.

"It is Mr. Handley and many on this thread who are moving the goalposts, as previously explained. A few years ago it was the MMR that was overwhelmingly impugned as The Cause of autism (see Wakefield's article and numerous others*); more specifically, it was thimerosal in the MMR that was impugned. When thimerosal was removed but the incidence of autism failed to drop,* you (plural) moved the goalposts by saying that it must be other things in the vaccines, or earlier vaccines, or the sheer number of vaccines. Now, when the latest study establishes that autism begins before children get the MMR, you pretend that you had never impugned MMR as the primary cause in the first place"

Umm, you do know that MMR never contained Thimerosal, right? So how can we blame the Thimerosal in MMR when it never contained it? You guys are sounding dumber every day.

The thing is that the study shows that ASD's are regressive. It shows that it usually represents between the ages of 12 months and 2 years, but can show up as early as 6 months. Novella's confirmation bias said that it rules out MMR because ASD's can be detected at 6 months. Wrong. it CAN BE detected as early as 6 months, doesn't mean it does in every case. Read the study. They said they saw regressions as early as 6 months, but the majority represented between 12 months and 18 months.

Oh, and it also means that they represent during the majority of a child's vaccination schedule. Just like we've been saying. Oh, and didn't "science" say there was no such thing as regressive autism?

Run along now...Orac needs to tell you what to think.

HRP III-

You said- "it was thimerosal in the MMR that was impugned"....

..are you serious - thimerosal in the MMR? If you are stating that anyone blamed thimerosal in MMR then you are clearly confused and not understanding the science of vaccines, the ingredients of vaccines or the mechanism of how they can injure.

Your "post hoc fallacy", "thimerosal in MMR", and "monkey study also should not be done" comments are bizarre little fantasies that show a mind that is trying hard to disprove the fact that vaccines have injured, killed and in our cases, caused the behavioral manifestations ie, "autism" that our children now suffer.

It is also obvious that like your fearless leader, Novella, you each should have someone else proof read your crap, ie, "one of the perils of daily blogging about technical topics, and posting blogs without editorial or peer-review"...is that you are both looking like fools now.

"The outcomes that you listed appear to be a hodgepodge of every silly speculation that has appeared on websites such as this one"

Boy are YOU achingly misinformed, despite your screen name and its whiff of entitlement and feigned superiority. Your self-regard is, in fact, breathtaking.

Of the list of things that the commenter wanted studied were "Digestive, mitochondrial, genetic expression changes, immune/autoimmune disorders, autism, diluent protein induced food allergy, asthma, SIDS, ALS, MMF, MS."

Many of those ideas are not based on "silly speculation" at all. There is at least one study associating the timing of DPT vaccine with asthma, and the Federal Vaccine Court has paid out or settled a number of vaccine injury cases involving autoimmune disorders and demyelinating diseases. There is even an entire Omnibus Proceeding involving Hep B Vaccine, in which several recent cases have been paid out for myelin associated diseases, especially MS. Here is but one example, http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/MILLMAN.FISHER071309.pdf - there are more.

Even a fibromialgia case was just settled by the Feds in Vaccine Court. In fact, the Feds have been quietly settling a LOT of autoimmune and nervous system disorder cases lately. Sadly though not surprisingly, most of these cases are not published, but the settlements are (you have to search around for them): http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/opinions_decisions_vaccine/UnPublished

Everyone should check out the published cases too, they are really quite interesting. Some of them refer openly to autism. The Freeman case is a good example, especially footnote #7 at the end of page 11: http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/HASTINGS.Freeman.pdf

Now, is any of this proof of anything? Of course not. That would be "silly" to conclude. But it is also a basis on which certain parents suspect that certain vaccine ingredients may be harmful to certain children under certain circumstances and might lead to certain neurological, neuro-immune and autoimmune outcomes, of which autism is a part (See Zimmerman).

Obviously, the Special Masters believe that it's at least plausible that vaccines can cause MS, autoimmunity, myelin damage, seizure disorders and encephalopathies (including ones that can lead to ASD. It's not a bit silly to ask for more research along these lines. The National Vaccine Advisory Committee supports more research into autoimmune disorders as a clinical outcome of vaccine injury. Why? Because they know that, by making vaccines as safe as possible, more people will get their kids and themselves immunized.

If you don't like it, I suggest you go tell it to the judges, and the NVAC.

This on VACTRUTH

“I have a little person in my office who had 10 rounds of antibiotics and 17 vaccines by 20 months of age. Yes, now autistic. That should be assault with deadly weapons and the doctor should be in jail. Instead, the parents were kicked out of their pediatrician’s practice for refusing more vaccines and wanting to get their child well. With these annoying, non-compliant parents out of the way, that doctor can continue to do what vaccinators do: Inject toxic substances into children, ruining their health and the lives of the child’s family members”

Bottom line, the truth is in the pudding, the proof is in a life gone south by people who don't care a rats behind about our kids. The poster that suggested we don't know our science, must be delusional.

BillyJoe, No.

To put it into simple terms (and it is simple, really. Mercury is a known neurotoxins that is injected into infants. What does a neurotoxin do?) All the mercury from the shots before the MMR do considerable damage. And then the MMMR comes along and does even more damage, like sometimes actually infecting people with measles and...

From "Mother Warriors" by Jenny McCarthy pg. 35-36

"The man from the AAP began by telling us about his own contributions to be medical establishment since the beginning days of the AAP and how far they have come. He was involved in the early research that discovered rubella was associated with certain types of autism. (Rubella is a live virus, the common European strain of the measles.)

Wait a second. Did this AAP guy just admit that he was involved in early research proving that the rubella virus can cause cases of autism?...If rubella can cause autism in some children, and moms claim that they lose their children after the MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, and rubella), which has three live viruses, including rubella, is it such a huge leap to say vaccines might trigger autism in some kids?"

Some interesting reading for you might be toxicologist Dr. Aposhian's testimony in vaccine court about mercury and what is does before the MMR vaccine is introduced.

HRP III wrote:
(Note to Donna: I wrote nothing about "at 2 years old").

I apologize for misinterpreting the point you were making when you quoted that passage in your first comment.

The point I wasn't very clear about making in my earlier response to your comment was that the U.S. prospective study doesn't tell us anything about how children in Great Britain reacted to their MMR because they have a different immunization schedule as well as use a different MMR vaccine. It may be the brand specific MMR vaccine used there that is running up their autism increase. If their MMR is more pathogenically immunogenic (hypersensitive response), or more capable of setting up a persistent infection in genetically susceptible ileal lymphoid tissue (some pathogens are host specific), well that possible etiology for autistic regression could still exist but have nothing to do with U.S. children starting to show signs of regression at 12 months.

Furthermore, I don't believe we even know the immunization status of the subjects of the U.S. prospective study. If the subjects followed the CDC/ACIP's recommended schedule an objective theory for regression might consider immune stimulation that exceeded metabolic reserve for those who may be genetically and/or physically susceptible. Each individual vaccine is developed to illicit an effective/robust immune response. What happens when you multiply immune stimulation by n+1 vaccines given at one time, then repeated at frequent intervals to subjects genetically predisposed to hyper IgE/IgG expression or mitochondrial weakness? or maybe some other interaction bench science hasn't revealed yet.

More and more reputable scientists from the variety of disciplines studying autism are finding common ground in how the immune system plays a key part in influencing the expression of autism. Parents have offered a place to start looking--a temporal association with an immune manipulating procedure. Good, honest inquiry starts with an observation and then follows the evidence.

Just to be clear...

Do we all agree with the following statement:

The MMR vaccine cannot be the cause of Austism because it is given at or after 12 months of age whereas symptoms of Autism commence before 12 months of age.

That, at least, is what the article referenced by Steven Novella seems to be saying.

I think parents like "Kim D" have no idea what it's like for parents of non-"HFA" kids. It's like comparing my experiences of shit-smearing, psychotic tantrums that lasted for 6 hours, outrageous aggression, severe GI pain, assortments of food intolerances, 100% non-verbal abilities and 18 months of chronic constipation to a completely verbal, socialized child that just seems "quirky." (oh how cute, little Bobby just luuuuuvs dinosaurs! can't get enough!)

Just because it didn't happen to YOU doesn't mean it didn't happen to ME. Can you get that? Here it is again - just because it didn't happen to YOUR child doesn't mean it didn't happen to MY child.

On another note, she willingly admits there is probably an eviornmental aspect. Gosh - like what? Can you name just ONE thing? All of these people so sure it ain't the vaccines, and they never, ever name a single other "enviornmental" component.

You just *know* it's not the vaccines. Riiiiight.

My son who has HFA now had 9 shots on that dreaded day years ago.....who knew.....

Nothing was ever the same.....

2 years of screaming thereafter.....

Endless therapy .......and now a private school.....

I have said for years it was the vaccines........no-one cares, no one will ever admit to it...., so now what....warn others to have obne shot at a time....seperate the MMR!! Why doesnt anyone listen to the parents...no study will tell us anything new....we know what it is from!!

Did he have some signs before, maybe slight however he laughed, looked at me and spoke and interacted. After that day he went into his own world.....the world of Autism.

Good to know!!

Novella writes:

"I make these kinds of errors from time to time – that is one of the perils of daily blogging about technical topics, and posting blogs without editorial or peer-review. Most blog readers understand this, and typically I will simply clarify my prose or correct mistakes when they are pointed out."

So he makes errors from time to time that in this case completely negated the point of his post, he doesn't bother to show his ramblings to anyone before posting them, and his readers understand this!

Must be nice to be Steven Novella. Great gig.

Dr. Milco--

The article in Swedish on the vaccine injury compensation case is here:
http://svt.se/2.33782/1.1896991/dom_kunde_ha_ruinerat_pojke

The translation is here:
http://tinyurl.com/yf9wtm9

I just read a Finnish blog in which it was said that Finnish media has been "taken over by the GSK mafia". I have a strange impression that safe harbors are disappearing.

Well, of course you don't know what the monkeys are for! If you really seek the truth, you need the monkeys. A clinical non-pharma sponsored vaxed/unvaxed study of the whole vaccine schedule as given to our children, starting at birth, surveying all outcomes including but not limited to digestive, mitochondrial, genetic expression changes, immune/autoimmune disorders, autism, diluent protein induced food allergy, asthma, SIDS, ALS, MMF, MS, Gullaine-Barre, reproductive health, persistent vaccine strain viral loads, unforeseen retroviral contaminations, and toxic metal burden. Not to mention the vaccine failure rate (mumps epidemics!) and vaccines causing or spreading the disease they were meant to prevent (polio, rotavirus, HPV). Maybe we can draft a few monkeys and give them anthrax and yellow fever shots too. Show me the monkeys. I would like to see them please. Wouldn't YOU? If not, you are more interested in the status quo than the truth.

Kim D said,

"In the end, though, I really don't care about the "why.""

If one doesn't care about the "why" then one doesn't really care at all. People who are uncaring make me sad.

AMEN PHILLY-MOM!

DSO,

You think J.B.'s namecalling is bad? It is nothing compared to what the people he's namecalling have called us.

I'm wondering which name calling has everyone so up in arms. blogging weirdo? clue-free moron? shill for industry? intellectual malpractice? incredibly wrong? hater of our community? can't count? bad guy? doesn't understand?

If the shoe fits, wear it proudly. People who continually put themselves out there defending the indefensible on behalf of a corrupt industry deserve everything that's coming to them. Their every dishonest twist of reason harms more children daily and then prevents those who've been harmed from being healed.

VERY IMPORT MESSAGE FROM SWEDEN:
I have no time to translate this article, I am a dokter in sweden, my name is Milco.
Summary: parents of a swedish autistic boy have went to court to fight that they believe their son was damaged by DKTP and or enviroment...etcetc....all the way to the hig courts...they lost....the boy who is 17 must pay about 90.000dollar law costs....It is important why!!!! not because they lost( I am so sorry for that!)
but that people are trying to go to trial.....all the way!!! VERY VERY important!
I have seen many kids ruined by vaccinations and their is a link..
May be you must translate or look for english: it is on the top page on the biggest website in sweden and tonight it will be full force......it is important
Here is the article in swedish:

GR Milco

En autistisk, omyndig pojke i Malmö blev efter en dom skyldig försäkringsbolaget Trygg-Hansa nästan 900 000 kronor. Men Trygg-Hansa väljer på fredageftermiddagen att efterskänka pengarna.

Hans föräldrar processade för att han skulle få försäkringsersättning för sin autism, men förlorade.

- Om Trygg-Hansa insisterar på att få pengarna kommer min son att fråntas allt utöver existensminimum resten av livet, konstaterade den 17-årige pojkens mamma.

Föräldrarna hoppas att domen ska leda till en debatt om rättshjälp i Sverige. De pekar på privatpersoners sårbarhet när de ska processa mot bolag.

- Svenska folket fattar inte att de inte är skyddade, säger mamman.
Pojken blir skyldig att betala försäkringsbolagets rättegångskostnader i både tings- och hovrätt, totalt 893 000 kronor. Rättsskyddet i familjens hemförsäkring ger bara 60 000 kronor.

Ett stort antal expertvittnen har flugits till Sverige för att medverka i det medicinskt komplicerade målet. Föräldrarna menade att pojkens autism kan ha orsakats av vaccin mot difteri, stelkramp och polio, eller annan miljöpåverkan. Försäkringsbolaget hävdade att autismen var medfödd och därmed skulle ett undantag i försäkringsreglerna tillämpas som gör att han blir utan ersättning.

Hovrätten skriver med hänvisning till de expertvittnen som hörts i målet att det inte finns några vetenskapliga bevis för ett samband mellan autism och det slags vaccinationer pojken fått.
Hovrättsassessor Boel Havelius, en av tre domare i målet, kallar själv domen uppseendeväckande.
- Det är ganska uppseendeväckande. Det blir så väldigt tragiska konsekvenser i det här fallet när det har varit fråga om så stora rättegångskostnader, säger hon till TT.

- Ett barns ekonomiska framtid har i och med rättsprocessen i detta speciella fall äventyrats och det anser inte vi är försvarbart, därför väljer vi att efterskänka alla kostnader, säger Björn Sporrong, ansvarig för Trygg-Hansas barn-, sjuk- och olycksfallsförsäkringar, på fredagseftermiddagen

"In the end, though, I really don't care about the "why." I care about the "what next." My son hasn't become a drastically different child between the ages of 3 and 9 because I pined over the what-ifs and why-fores. He is the amazing child he's become because I thought about how to make his life the best it could be" ~ Kim D.

Kim D - you must not read AofA frequently, because if you did you would recognize that the parent's in this community live in "what's next". I have not encountered anyone on AofA who considered the conventional wisdom of "no hope, no treatment, no recovery" road for their child.

I am not interested in "why's" to cast blame, but I do consider the "why's" for several basic reasons:
1. If I know "why", I can better treat my child.
2. If I know "why", I can avoid whatever environmental toxin(s) may contribute to (or excerbate) my child's condition.
3. Prevention -- many in this community have younger children and do not want to repeat the cycle or see friends, family, or strangers for that matter repeat the cycle.

My son was not initially in the "high functioning" spectrum. But he is today. I can paraphrase and apply your comments to our situation: my son did not dramatically improve from the ages of 2 to 6 because I pined over the what-if's. He improved because my husband and I considered all the possible causes (and treatments) and tried a variety of therapies that we found reasonable. Today, he is a much healthier child, which resulted in him becoming a much happier (and a higher functioning) child because of a combination of interventions.

What you are suggesting is that we look at a "collapsed bridge" (our sick children) and not consider how. By examining the evidence in the collapsed bridge, we may be able to determine the causes. By determining the causes, we can build stronger and safer bridges in the future.

PS - My child received 31 vaccines by the age of 15 mths. Please take your "anti-vaccine crowd" label elsewhere.

Kim D.

I've not heard those who've concerns with vaccines say "my child is my science" nearly so often as I've heard the other side say "correlation does not equal causation". No, it does not make sense to say that a few anecdotal cases means vaccines cause regression into autism. Perhaps, however, it makes sense when it's not a few anecdotal cases, but tens of thousands.

You know, I do understand that correlation doesn't equal causation. What I do not understand is why it is that so many on their side say this as though this is all that needs to be said. They say it as though simply saying it makes the case that there ISN'T any correlation. This is not so.

All people are asking for, all they've been asking for for well on a decade at least now, is a fairly done study. Look at the numbers. Take a large random sample of people. Look at the number who've been fully vaccinated and developed autism. (Count only the plain as day full-blown autism cases; I've grown so tired of the “oh that child doesn't have autism he's just spoiled” argument.) Look at the number who were never vaccinated and developed autism. Then look at the number who were vaccinated and don't have autism and then the number who were never vaccinated and do not have autism.

This isn't rocket science. I believe that the former head of the CDC, Julie Gerberding, has said it could and should be done.

# autism/vaccinated
# autism/unvaccinated
# without autism/ vaccinated
# without autism/unvaccinated

A table with these numbers would settle things once and for all. If it was fairly done. (And no at this point I don't trust my government health officials nor do I trust the vaccine makers to do this study. I've already seen how corrupt and desperately they don't want this study done, and the lengths they will go to in order to keep facts from being heard.)

All I've seen and heard, over and over again in the last six years, are the same old lame arguments. Usually by people who are not willing to put their name to their posts. It's the same old fear monger and the same old lies and the same old ad hominem and even censorship.

I am a recent subscriber to your publication. I have a grandson with Fragile X syndrome and autism and a granddaughter with same. She is more protected because of the extra chromosome, but these children struggle everyday of the week to overcome their secondary autism symptons.

I am investigating all angles of this disorder and have found your publication extremely informative, although I don't agree with all you say.

What I am offended by is the personal attacks on these people and the name calling that appears in the above article. You do your cause no good when these episodes of name calling appear and you can turn off those that may otherwise be willing to listen to your arguements.

Kim D.

You say you know for certain that your child's autism was not caused by vaccines, since you didn't allow him to be vaccinated. You seem equally certain that vaccines cannot cause autism in any child, since they were not responsible for your child's autism. This is not logical. No one here is suggesting that vaccines are the one and only cause of autism, merely that they are one of the causes. Your child's autism is likely the result of yet another environmental trigger that has not yet been identified.

On that note, I have a very personal question to ask you: Do you have "silver" fillings in your teeth? The reason I ask this is because they aren't actually made of silver, they are 50 percent mercury, and they break down over time. I just recently had my mouth full of mercury fillings, which had been in my mouth for 25 years, removed because they were breaking down (a metal stain was actually coming off on the dental floss when I flossed my teeth, and I had developed a very strong metal taste in my mouth). I had the above-stated evidence that they were breaking down for about two years before I finally had them removed, at which point I was experiencing (and my doctor confirmed) multiple symptoms of metal poisoning, including: burning and tingling sensations throughout my body, tremors in my hands, low thyroid function, frequent urination, and very serious digestive problems. For the latter I ended up on a baby-food only diet for a couple months, at which point I began adding back solid foods. Through this process I figured out that I was able to digest a large variety of solid foods, but that my body had lost its ability to digest GLUTEN and DAIRY (sound familiar to anyone?)

My husband and I had been trying to conceive just prior to what became for me a serious medical crisis. I feel certain that had I conceived and carried to term, my child would have been metal-poisoned.

So, I'm wondering whether some of the women who know for certain that their child did not develop autism from vaccines are equally able to rule out other prime suspects, like mercury filings, as the cause?

Thank you in advance.

Kim D. wrote:
“why would boys be wildly more prone to autism than girls?”

The reason for that is not genetics.

Baby girls (not all) tend to have stronger immune system (in infancy and in early childhood) than baby boys.

Instead on concentrating on “gene and environment” the focus should be on the “Early Immune System Development and the Environment”.

I don't know if this comment will appear, since it doesn't buy into the anti-immunization hysteria. I don't doubt that autism may have an environmental component. I also don't think that injecting kids with mercury is a good idea. I just don't buy the knee-jerk "it's vaccines!" cry. Why? Because of what I have observed in my own son. Since anecdotal evidence (what parents see in their own kids) is championed by the anti-vaccine crowd, you have to give the other side the same courtesy. My son did seem neuro-typical when he was born. He was very independent, but he also seemed very engaged. I have pictures of him at 3 months staring bright-eyed into the camera, making perfect eye contact. But he never spoke a word. He didn't crawl. He didn't walk. By 12 months I was concerned. By 15 months, I'd talked to the doctor and had him referred to get evaluated. At 3, he was diagnosed.

So, why do I know that his autism has not one thing to do with vaccines? Because I had believed the hysteria. I refused to allow the doctors to give them to my son. And, yet, he is autistic. He is very high-functioning, but he fits almost every single diagnostic criterion for the disorder. He requires very close supervision. He is extremely echolalic. He doesn't care to play with peers. He becomes extremely focused on things. He stims, including hand-flapping and spinning. He has no sense that other people are separate, with their own needs and wants. He didn't speak a word until he was 3. He required extreme dedication on the part of my husband and myself, his older sister, his therapists, his teachers, his hab provider, and (especially) himself to become a child who can carry on a conversation. In short, he has classic autism. But no vaccines prior to onset. Yet, his older sister, who had every single one of them is neuro-typical. The reason? Because the vaccine excuse is bogus.

Maybe there are environmental links to autism. I am prone to think it arises from a combination of interacting causes, with both genetic and environmental bases. If that were not the case, why would boys be wildly more prone to autism than girls? If it's all the evil vaccines pushed on our children by Big Pharma, it shouldn't be so strongly linked to those with a Y chromosome.

In the end, though, I really don't care about the "why." I care about the "what next." My son hasn't become a drastically different child between the ages of 3 and 9 because I pined over the what-ifs and why-fores. He is the amazing child he's become because I thought about how to make his life the best it could be. That is what I care about. That is all that I care about.

JB--Your sarcastic wit along with the undeniable facts really drives it home. I love the way you confront the truth and tell it like it is. AMEN.

It's a long disgusting story as to what happened to my grandson, but basically my daughter refused the vaccines until age 6 months when he was in the hospital regarding intestinal disorders, and the hospital staff doctors referred my daughter and me both to child protective services for "medical neglect" regarding the vaccines and threatened removal of custody. This scared the sh*t out of my daughter but she would only agree to 2 vaccine doses. They LIED to her by pretending to comply with her demands, but unbeknownst to her they actually gave him a total of NINE vaccines combined in two injections. Then a few months later they gave him "2 vaccines" (actually NINE more again), and finally at age 12 months they hit him up with another nine doses including MMR--27 vaccine doses within 6 months and the last pull of the trigger sent him right over the cliff IMMEDIATELY into autism. He became a zombie, could no longer talk or walk, acidic diarrhea that ate his skin away, non stop screaming, rashes all over on and on. It was absolutely obvious that the vaccines were the culprit so we got a lawyer to get all this insanity stopped, but here it is 2 1/2 years later and we are still fighting for his recovery.

Thank God for the internet, nutritional products and alternative medicine, Defeat Autism Now, Age of Autism and all of the other wonderful people who are helping us to fight the battles. Although my grandson is night and day compared to the onset, and he is just recently recovering language, he still has a long way to go.

I realize that many people do not have this kind of experience with immediate onset of autism after vaccines, however I have read many accounts of others whose children had immediate severe reactions to vaccines resulting in autism along with the intestinal and many other health issues...and tragically the immediate reactions for some results in death. So we are just so grateful that my grandson survived all this because where there is life there is hope.

JB wrote:
"More importantly, autism is not an event, it’s a process. It is exceptionally rare that I hear the story, “my son was 100% fine, and at 2 years old after one vaccine appointment he lost everything.” I have heard that story, but very rarely."

Novella (at his blog) and HRP III are stubbornly stuck on the "at 2 years old after one vaccine" part of this article. JB's comment "autism is not an event, it’s a process" is the point, but they can't acknowledge it because then they would have to admit that the study demonstrates support for the claims many parents have been making.

The immunization schedule in Great Britain is very different than the U.S. and to compare the outcome of this study as "evidence against the MMR vaccine causing autism" for children from the early 90's in Great Britain following a live virus vaccine doesn't make sense.

HRP III said:

"It is reasonable, therefore to conclude that the study that Dr. Novella reviewed is evidence against the MMR vaccine causing autism."

Not sure how you come up with that. This from the study:

"But what these results indicate is that clear signs of autism emerge between 6 and 12 months of age. Further, social skills tend to be regressive in ASD between 6 and 18 months of age."

My daughter, 17 next month, and the older kids had MMR at 18 months. It has now been moved up to 12 months (any correlation with that switch and an increased uptake in autism, btw?) so this study is saying at 6-12 months there is regression- signs of autism - then more regression at 6 months until 18.

My daughter followed this pattern. Thimerosal poisoning after each doctor visit, loss of skills, eye contact and then a big regression after her MMR at 18 months.

This study tells us what we have all witnessed - that vaccines at the well baby visits did cause regression and our children kept regressing as our doctors denied or made lame excuses until they regressed right into "autism."

Now why are you more worried about Novella instead of 1:100 babies injured by a PHRMA product in a needle?

Novella is not

HRP III, if you think anyone here believes Brian Deer is a reliable source you are barking up the wrong tree. The fact remains that Wakefield listened to what those parents said, scoped those kids who came to him because of their severe gastrointestinal distress, and found vaccine-strain measles virus in the biopsies. No kangaroo court or corporate-mandated retraction is going to make the science, or the problem, go away. You shills can play whack-a-mole all you want with pharma-sponsored studies finding that mercury is safe, and MMR doesn't cause autism, and autism is an untreatable genetic disorder and anyone who says otherwise is itchin for a fight even though we can't find the genes responsible and there's no such thing as a genetic epidemic. But it doesn't make it true and it doesn't make the ever-expanding vaccine schedule as given in the real world any safer, and it doesn't do anything to help our kids.

Show me the monkeys!

What was obvious before has become now fact:

These "science-based" bloggers are twisting research to fulfill their need to keep autism as far away from vaccines as possible, thus preventing the Truth of thousands injured by vaccines and more damaged today and daily until there is a moratorium on the reckless procedure of "well baby visits" -- that they deceive on purpose -- that they have an agenda that has nothing to do with science -- and that they are without morals.

These are the behaviors of criminals.
Wake up NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, TIME, NEWSWEEK, et al.

"It is exceptionally rare that I hear the story, 'my son was 100% fine, and at 2 years old after one vaccine appointment he lost everything.' I have heard that story, but very rarely."

And yet that is exactly the story that we heard repeatedly only a few years ago, when it was repeatedly offered to impugn the MMR vaccine. Of the 12 children reported in Wakefield's (now discredited) paper, MMR vaccination was the "exposure identified by parents or doctor" in 8, and in those 8 the "interval from exposure to first behavioral symptom" was 1 week, 2 weeks, 48 hours, "immediately after MMR," 1 week, 24 hours, 2 weeks, and 1 week. The "Age(s) at onset of first (behavioral) symptom" for these 8 were 12 months, 13 months, 14 months, 4-5 years, 15 months, 21 months, 19 months, and 15 months. (See Table 2 of Wakefield's paper, available at: http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-paper.pdf )

It is reasonable, therefore to conclude that the study that Dr. Novella reviewed is evidence against the MMR vaccine causing autism.

"many parents blame their children’s autism on vaccines they received after the true onset of symptoms."

Hardy har har har. Nice try, doc. I would say many parents blame their children's autism on idiots like you who prevent them from getting honest, scientifically valid medical care. A cursory glance at my son's pediatric growth chart shows that no indeedy, I don't blame the shots he received AFTER the onset of symptoms. It was the ones BEFORE the onset of symptoms that were the problem. We delayed starting the vaccines until three months and then did one at a time; I charted each pediatric visit and know exactly which shot did it. The first Hib at 4 months sent him off the 50th percentile where he'd been since birth. The third DTaP, at six months, caused a hard right turn from the 25th to the 10th and continued its trajectory until he fell below the third percentile after the MMR at 12 months and has stayed there ever since. That third DTaP, with tylenol no doubt, then the digestive issues, ear infections, antibiotics, digestive issues, etc. One shot at a time, he still met all developmental milestones on time, and wasn't diagnosed until age 3 1/2. I have no doubt in my mind that if we'd done the shots on the recommended schedule, he would probably have been profoundly autistic enough to have been diagnosed in Novella's random and largely inaccurate 2-3 year window. Instead he is small but high functioning and mostly recovered, no thanks to Novella and his ilk. What a sorry bunch of useless maroons. Instead of being excited and inspired by the science in front of them, they are compelled to deny, deny, deny.

He wrote an addendum:

"As several commenters have pointed out, I erred when I wrote that “Many children are diagnosed between the age of 2 and 3, during the height of the childhood vaccine schedule.” What I meant to convey was that this time period is still within the childhood vaccine schedule, and therefore it is likely that when parents first notice the signs of autism their child would have been recently vaccinated by chance alone. The point remains, however, that many parents blame their children’s autism on vaccines they received after the true onset of symptoms.

Here I was thinking primarily of the MMR vaccine, the first to be blamed for autism (thanks to Andrew Wakefield). As you can see from the vaccine schedule, the first MMR vaccine in the series is scheduled for 12 months – after most children already have detectable signs of autism. This is why I used the Cedillo case to reflect this point."

Wrong again! MMR wasn't the 1st vaccine in America to be blamed for Autism. There were reports of vaccine reactions that started back in the '80s, mostly from the DPT shot. So now, he's adding revisionist history to his list of delusions. Nice

Wow, that was refreshing. I always feel like my lifespan is "telescoping" back out again when I get a good solid laugh at industry incompetence. Thank you, JB.

I also got a bit of a reminder not to take news reports of studies at face value. When I first read the mainstream "farticles" on the study this week, I was furious, thinking the researchers were making a case for "genetic regression". Always important not to come to any conclusions until reading actual study texts. It's not impossible that these researchers were being dissident in providing evidence for age of regression. It's quite supportive of what millions of parents report witnessing regarding their children's "disappearances".

My kids crashed after MMR, flu shots and four other shots at age one and were not diagnosed until two years later. There was no "telescoping" on our part in interim between injury and dx-- just a bunch of mainstream peds and neurologists telling us "not to worry". Maybe the mainstream doctors were "telescoping"...right in on the Merck and Sanofi logos printed on drug promotional knick knacks covering every inch of their offices.

Ooof! I'm guessing the truth hurts, especially when JB uses it to repeatedly hit one over the head with it. Is anyone from the media paying attention to what's going on? I mean, when are they going to wake the *bleep* up? At what point are they going to look around the cozy FedPharma cave and realize that they're the only ones still in there looking at the shadow pictures on the wall? That they look completely stupid? Wake up, you losers! Don't you realize that your financial bankruptcy is a just logical extension of your lazy moral bankruptcy?

"Forget about these crazy doctors- Call in the evolutionary biologists. I guarantee you ; They will be fascinated. Here is the very very first species of mammal on the face of the planet Earth, which develops in infancy and then undevelops. And its all genetic- Absolutely incredible. Such a crying shame that Darwin had to miss this most amazing phenomenon of evolution .Please JB, call them right now."

I nominate this comment as the comment of the week. Frikkin brilliant!!!

Great work again JB.

What I think I see with the Dr. Steven Novella paper, is a "new form of regression".

Something... could be genetic, or it could be enviromental, is causing a Dr. from Yale to regress... and begin to shit all over himself in public.

A blast from the past:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJYSu2OVCGM

"The phenomenon of telescoping..."

LOL! Tell me he didn't really say this...

Wow. I am off to practice my superb telescoping skills. Be back in a few days ... Or maybe minutes... depending on how I do.

Novella, you make me laugh... I wonder if he even realizes what a fool he looks like here.

Forget about these crazy doctors- Call in the evolutionary biologists. I guarantee you ; They will be fascinated. Here is the very very first species of mammal on the face of the planet Earth, which develops in infancy and then undevelops. And its all genetic- Absolutely incredible. Such a crying shame that Darwin had to miss this most amazing phenomenon of evolution .Please JB, call them right now.

How many times have we heard the argument that it is unethical to perform a study that uses vaccinated vs unvaccinated children. The risk would be too great to the unvaccinated children.
Well now here is a study that takes place during the vaccinations and follows the children into autism and who knows how many other immune compromised diseases. We need to demand the vaccine schedule that each one of these children followed and lets take a look at the correlation. Or maybe this study should of been stopped as the ressearchers realized that some of these children might be developing autism. Ethically speaking with chidren shouldn't the parents have been notified of their child's seemingly pre-autism type behavior?