Kim Stagliano on HuffPo: Paul Offit Pope of the Church of the Immaculate Vaccination
Katie Wright: Autism and Amanda Peet, By a Parasite

Autism and Adulthood, the Looming Future

Hiding tree By Anne Dachel

Autism activist Julie Obradovic wrote An Autism Mom's Open Letter to Dr. Paul Offit in September of 2008. She wrote regarding his book, Autism's False Prophets and she made excellent points on the subject of vaccines and autism. 

I'm also publicly addressing Dr. Offit with an open letter.  My topic is the numbers.  For years whenever the media has covered autism, it's been about kids with autism.  Most of us never knew anyone with autism or who showed autistic traits when we were growing up but today everyone has a friend, relative, or acquaintance with an autistic child and no one can reasonably tell us why.  That will soon be changing.  We're starting to see news reports about the needs of adults with autism and the concerns of their parents.  Since Dr. Offit has been included in countless stories dismissing the claim that there's an epidemic of autism happening in our country, I'd like him to answer my questions on the subject. 
Dear Dr. Offit,
Since I follow the news coverage of autism on a daily basis and because I've read your book, Autism's False Prophets, quite thoroughly, I would like you to explain what we're seeing in the latest reports about the autism numbers.
I'm aware that you personally don't believe that there's been any real increase in the autism rate.  More kids don't really have autism, we're just diagnosing the disorder more often because of greater awareness on the part of doctors and because the definition of autism has been expanded to include less severe forms.  

Right at the beginning of Autism's False Prophets, you give us your reasons for the explosion in the autism rate.  "Two phenomena likely account for the increase.  First, the definition of autism has broadened to include children with milder, more subtle symptoms.  During the time of Leo Kranner and Bruno Bettelheim, children with mild symptoms of autism may have been described as 'quirky' or 'different' or 'unusual' but not autistic.  Today, these children are more likely to be diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder or Asperger's Syndrome or pervasive developmental delay.  Second, in the past children with severe symptoms of autism were often considered mentally retarded.  Today, as the number of children with severe autism has increased, the number with mental retardation has decreased." (p. 3-4 AFP)

Even though many say that the autism increase is just the result of a name change by the medical community, I'm having a hard time understanding the news stories on services for adults, or more specifically, the lack of them.
What really got my attention was the report by the California Senate Select Committee
on Autism presented in April, 2009
President pro Tem of the California State Senate, Darrell Steinberg, talked about coming up with services for adults with autism.  He noted the need for housing and vocational training for those "who age of out the system." 

Another speaker on the video gave us the mind-boggling numbers, saying that there were "fourteen thousand students with autism [in California ] a decade ago."   Then he added the increase, "forty-six thousand students today, and growing."

Rick Rollens of the MIND INSTITUTE spoke and made what I thought were the best comments in the press conference.  These were among the things he said:

"Autism is epidemic in this state as it is throughout the country."

"Autism population is skewed dramatically toward young children."

"Eight-four percent of the autism population is under the age of 21." 

"More six and seven year olds in the system than all the adults with autism combined."
None of this sounds like your version of no real increase---expanded definition.  And if we look at this report from CBS News from two years ago, it's even worse.
Adults with Autism (Watch the CBS news story here.) The lead remark in the story was, "The adult population with autism is about to explode." Reporter Maggie Rodriguez announced, "It's only a matter of time before we're facing a crisis in adult services. There may not be enough work to go around." Even Alison Singer bemoaned the fact that "there's going to be a tidal wave of people with autism.  We are not ready for that.  We as a society are not ready to embrace the one in 150 people who are going to need adult services."
Singer and her entire family are concerned about the future for her autistic daughter.
Gary Mesibov director of TEACCH at the U of NC added, "I don't think anyone at this point can meet this dramatic increase."
On Nov 13, there was a National Town Hall Meeting about autistic adults.  The hub of this meeting was at the U of IL.  Fifteen other sites were also included around the US. 
News stories covered the meeting:
NOV 13 Kansas City Star (HERE) Adults with autism inspire worries and action.
The KC Star reported, "Each year, tens of thousands of children diagnosed with autism, from mild to severe, enter adulthood and leave the safe confines of schools and their services behind. Then we were told that there is 'the silent tsunami' of autistic youth aging out into adulthood and we read that "the disorder's cause and the reasons for its precipitous rise are not known. The scope of its effects is vast."

In addition, we heard from one parent who said, 'I won't be around forever. I want to know they're safe. I want to know there will be somebody to look after them, that they won't be forgotten and can lead productive lives.'

On Nov 12, from San Diego  CA came the news story, Autistic Adults Present A Growing Care Dilemma. (HERE)  We heard from a pediatrician who doesn't agree that the numbers aren't increasing.  "The increasing number of Americans diagnosed with autism is partly due to an expanding definition of autism. But pediatrician Doris Trauner believes there has been a true increase in the numbers of people with this disability... the result of genetics, environment or a combination of both. We may not know what causes autism, but Trauner says the care dilemma that's caused by autism should be clear by now."
And on Nov 14 came the Examiner piece about the National Town Hall Meeting, An historic event; voting on the future of adults with autism (HERE). This was very interesting.  "More than 1000 people discussed vital concerns and staggering statistics about the current state of housing, employment and community life for adults with autism. Via computer technology Chicago was the hub and center for transmission to a large screen where people in the other 15 cities could participate."

There was also a video message from Peter Bell, Executive Vice President for Programs and Services at Autism Speaks; also a father of a son with autism to all the sites of the Town Hall Meeting.  He is concerned about the future for his son, just like countless parents across the country.

Dr. Offit, what I can't understand is why any of this is going on.  According to you, when CBS reported that the autistic adult population "is about to explode," they meant in name only.  Surely there must already be lots of places to accommodate these people.  Where have they gone in the past when they were mislabeled as mentally retarded? 
It seems that "better diagnosing" doesn't extend to the current older adult population with autism.  So how hard would it be to find the 40, 60, and 80 year olds with autism?  The criteria for diagnosing autism involves very specific types of behavior, along with deficits in communication and social skills.  I work with a number of autistic kids in their late teens and they're not showing signs of losing their symptoms.  I can easily imagine that in 20 and 30 years they'll be like they are right now.If there are hundreds of thousands of misdiagnosed older adults with autism in group homes and institutions, why don't we ever see any of them in news coverage?  Why aren't all kinds of people looking for them?  It would certainly prove your case.  None of this makes any sense.  Why was the National Town Hall Meeting even held?  You've reassured us that no parent needs to be worried.  Autistic adults will go where they've always gone.
I'm also bothered by the stories that come out regularly about missing adults with autism.  For example:
Sept 13, 2007  ABC-7 Arlington VA, Missing Autistic Man Located (HERE)  "A 21-year-old autistic man who spent more than three weeks in jail while his family was searching for him has been released."

Oct 19, 2007 MSNBC, 'God breathed his warm breath down on us'  (HERE) "Karen Allen's prayers were answered around 2:30 p.m. Thursday - four days after Jacob, 18, had wandered away during a family hike Sunday in the Dolly Sods Wilderness area of the Monongahela National Forest ."

Jun 18, 2008, KARE-TV Twin Cities, Search is on for missing autistic man (HERE)
 "Hundreds of people have joined the search for a missing man who has autism. Keith Kennedy, 25, disappeared from the Trade Lake Camp near Grantsburg, Wisconsin on Sunday night." 

Jun 18, 2008 Desert News  Missing autistic man found in Oakley (HERE) "Frustrated by his autism, Justin Bailey, 20, wrote his family a note and walked out the door of his Kamas home on Sunday afternoon. Originally called a suicide note, the letter Bailey left "expressed displeasure with his situation," said Summit County sheriff's detective Josh Wall."
 July 18, 2008 KSL-TV Salt Lake City, Missing autistic man found in Salt Lake
(HERE)" A 19-year-old autistic man from Vernal, missing since Tuesday, has been found in Salt Lake ."

Nov 16, 2009 Chicago Sun-Time, Missing autistic man found in Crest Hill  (HERE)  "Police in Crest Hill found a 22-year-old autistic man wandering around the southwest suburb Monday, about 20 miles from where he had been reported missing Sunday."

You'll notice that all these stories are about people in their twenties or late teens.  I'm not being selective here.  There simply aren't stories out there on missing autistic adults in their 40s, 50s, and 60s.  Can you explain that to me?  Do older adults with autism not wander away or do they just not get news coverage? 
Dr. Offit, I hope you'll continue to be available for interviews as this issue takes center stage like you have been in the past whenever the question of vaccines and autism came up.  Recent reports like the following ones, make it clear the topic of adults with autism is going to be with us long into the future.
Nov 16, 2009, Parsippany family's struggle with autism a common challenge
(HERE) "In December 2007, the most recent year for which statistics were available, the [NJ] Department of Education counted 8,800 students with autism. Nationally, more than 250,000 students with autism were in schools in 2006-07, more than a 600 percent increase over a decade, according to the National Center for Education Statistics . And a 2007 National Survey of Child Health estimated that more than 680,000 children aged 2 to 17 have some form of autism - a rate of 1 out of every 91 children."

Nov 17, 2009, N.J. adults with autism to receive better protection, improved services under Assembly bill (HERE) "Much of the focus on autism has dealt with children, Roberts said. But he believes there is a 'growing need" to provide a better quality of life for adults who have the disorder. 'It will cost taxpayers severely if adults with autism do not get the services they need to live as independently as possible,' Roberts said."
Nov 20, from The Record: Adults with autism (HERE)  'When I look out into the adult services world, what do I see?' a mother of a 21-year-old with autism asks in the report. 'I see no funding, no services, no day programs, no supports for employment, no appropriate health services, no access to transportation and ridiculously long waiting lists for residential.'
Finally from Pennsylvania, Nov 18, PA Governor Rendell announced the result of his autism census.  The numbers are expected to only get worse for the people in your state.  Clearly with the expanded criteria established for diagnosing autism in place for several years now, these numbers shouldn't be increasing like this.  There are only frightening findings in this the press release from Gov. Rendell: New Report Shows Demand for Autism Services will Continue to Rise: (HERE) "Pennsylvania is expected to see a continued rise in the number of children and adults living with autism, according to the Pennsylvania Autism Census Project Final Report released today by Governor Edward G. Rendell.  'Prior to this study, we had no accurate means to determine how many families were potentially in need of services and support,' said Governor Rendell. 'As we worked to determine who these families were and where they lived, our sense that Pennsylvania faces a very real crisis was confirmed.'

''In 2005, an estimated 20,000 Pennsylvanians were living with autism. The report predicts the number will grow to at least 25,000 by 2010. While the number of children diagnosed continues to rise, the report details an expected dramatic increase in the number of adults with autism. According to the report:

• In 2005, more than 1,400 Pennsylvania adults were living with autism - just over seven percent of the total autism population in the state.

• That number is expected to increase by 179 percent to more than 3,800 in 2010 and to more than 10,000 by 2015."

The governor of PA said that in 2005, only seven percent of the autism population were adults.  Where are adult numbers to equal this number of children with autism?  No one is able to prove to us that autism affects Americans of all age groups at the same rate because it seems, the huge adult population with autism simply isn't there.
Rendell Pledges More Help For Autistic (VIDEO HERE)

5 Spot: State Autism Census Released (VIDEO HERE).
If autism affects adults at the same rate as children and this census went looking for them, why are adults projected to make up only 3,800 of the 25,000 cases of autism by next year?  Maybe we should ask Gov Rendell if he thinks it's all just a change in the definition and greater recognition by doctors. 
On a more personal note, two weeks ago, I was at a meeting about regional autism services available in West Central Wisconsin .  Most of the focus was on children's needs but I did manage to corner a state official and ask him what WI was providing for autistic adults.  (As the mother of a 23 year old son with autism, this is of great interest to me.)  The best response I could get from him was that help for adults was "severely lacking" and that they'd be working on it.
Comments made this night were pretty much what I've heard whenever I've been at meetings in the last four years.  I've been in contact with countless people who work with disabled adults and much of the time I felt like I was the only person in the room who understood what I was talking about.
People with years of experience working with mentally retarded adults don't know what to do for someone with autism.  I've had so many ask me questions that indicate they have little or no experience or training in autism.  I see a very scary future for the hundreds of thousands of autistic children entering adulthood in the coming years.  We are a society totally unprepared for this "approaching tidal wave," as it's often called. 
Finally, these are the 2008 US Department of Education autism figures: (HERE)

Age 6 to 11 161,121

Age 12 to 17 112,913

Age 18 to 21 18,604

If Asperger's Syndrome was added as a diagnosis in 1994 that might in account for a surge in autism among teenagers, but the numbers shouldn't continue to increase.  
In 2005, our rate was one in 166, in 2007 it became one in 150, along with one in every 98 boys.  As of this year, it's now one in every 91 children, one in every 58 boys.  The rate in Britain is now one in every 60 kids, one in every 38 boys.  Two years from now, can we expect a similar increase when they again update the US rate?  When will these figures cause anyone to worry?  When it gets to be one in 30?  One in 10?

Within the next couple of years, these kids will start to overwhelm social services and welfare funds. Five years from now, I can guarantee that we'll be able to find lots of adults with autism. Problem is, they'll be young adults in their 20s and they'll have no place to go.
I hope experts like yourself continue to get coverage.  You'll be the ones we'll turn to for answers when we realize the enormous cost of autism, promising to equal that of any war our country has ever fought.  Most of all, people will want to know why none of the experts so often cited told us all these disabled adults were coming.
Anne Dachel
Mother of an autistic son
Media editor: Age of Autism



That was so funny doodle!
My Aspie ain't much of a lady's man either. Never had a date, and if any girl shows interest - scares him to death!


Joy says

"their father has Aspergers and so do they (autism has shown upon the chormosomes and genes). doesn't this mean that every autistic adult who gets on avarage 2 kids will "double the rates"?"

Ah yes, aspies as such ladies men. That explains everything. Maybe when my son can talk he can start populating the planet also. He does pretty well right now just on looks though, so maybe your theory is spot on

James' mom in MN

Thank you Anne. Your piece is so well thought out and logical. I hope that it opens the eyes of those who continue to think that we're just getting better at diagnosing kids. My own real world observation- when I was a special ed teacher 7 years ago (I left when my son was born) I had one of 3 students with autism in the entire DISTRICT in my classroom. Now my son is one of 3 students with autism in the SECOND GRADE in the same school district. I'm sure it's all due to better diagnosis though . . .


Thank you, Anne. This is one of the most brutal issues going for effected families-- and there's so many brutal issues to choose from.

The 23rd Census is going to take place in 2010. It would be interesting to find out how much political resistance there would be to lobbying for the inclusion of autism diagnoses among all age groups in the entire population. It's just one more question. If we were to push for it, I expect no one would work harder against that end than Paul Offit.

I've repeated myself a lot on the following: the explanation that this rate of autism existed one hundred years ago is impossible because there weren't enough people in institutions 100 years ago-- of any age or any diagnosis-- in which the current ASD population could have hidden...even if every other form of cognitive/mental disorder were displaced.

It's often speculated that the "equivalent cohort" of individuals with autism in the past were hidden among the populations of both those with mental retardation and among schizophrenics. The biggest problem with this is that mental retardation has remained rather steady in past decades in particular and the rates of schizophrenia and other serious mental illnesses have skyrocketed along with autism.

I'm not entirely sure (though this would be easy for someone with any experience to calculate), but I believe that those with mental disabilities and mental retardation were often housed in the same facilities in past eras. The numbers corresponding to some years below may have had to include mental retardation to a greater degree.

Go to the bottom of page 2 and the top of page 3 of this document (the site is a copy of an article: the article's page numbers are 24 and 25 in smaller print):

TABLE 2. The Disabled Mentally Ill in the United States

Rate of Disabled Mentally Ill per 1,000 Population

1850-------------------- .2

"Source: The disability rates for 1850 through 1955 are based onthe number of hospitalized mentally ill, as cited by E . FullerTorrey in The Invisible Plague (2001) . The disability rates for 1987 and 2003 are based on the number of mentally ill receiving SSI or SSDI payments, as was reported in 2004 by the Social Security Administration."

The only off the cuff answers anyone would be able to come up with for where all these displaced numbers could have gotten to (since we've now filled all the slots with autism times five in 1903 with the rest overflowing God knows where) are:

A) Society was more tolerant at one time and they (the missing autistics, schizophrenics, manic depressives, those with dementia) were just wandering around. But if they couldn't work, who supported them? The UK had organized public assistance rosters going back to the time of Henry XVIII and there's no record of these kinds of numbers. And can anyone really argue that the Victorian era was more tolerant than the present?

B) Families kept their mentally and cognitively disabled relatives at home. Problem is, the gap between rich and poor was wider than it is now, there was no organized Welfare system in the US until the Depression and charity was harder to come by. Were only members of rich families stricken with mental disabilities-- those who could afford to hide, feed and manage adults with autism? Why wouldn't more families remember the autistic uncle in the attic if this were so?- since it would have had to be so even in our own childhoods.

C) We killed them or they died of systematic neglect? Kanner was passionately opposed to euthanization of individuals with mental "defect". Wouldn't he have written about it? At this point, we'd need to be digging for the history of a hidden holocaust in the US and Great Britain and other countries with galluping autism rates. We know that some people with epilepsy and schizophrenia were sometimes deliberately exposed to TB and denied life saving medical treatments at the turn of the century to around 1930. We know there were mass sterilizations (read Edwin Black's "War Against the Weak") but not on a scale that could have wiped out the current numbers.

Janet Sheehan

Could you imagine if 1 in 91 children were going BLIND?

"Oh yeah, we're just diagnosing it better. Years ago they were kids who just had some vision problems. The teachers and doctors never really picked up on it. They're fine now as adults, anyway."

And think if kids were going blind, suddenly at around age 2, everyone would SURELY look at an environmental cause!!!

Cynthia Cournoyer

School teachers are the best gauge to whether this is real or not. If it is a definition change, teachers will tell you that the kids are the same and only the names have changed. But they are telling you that there is a real problem. Special ed programs are overwhelmed. How could they be overwhelmed if they ALWAYS served these children? Can someone start a registry or a blog just for teachers to tell their stories about what they observe? The make up of every classroom is different than EVER before.

Lindy Schultz

VERY WELL said!!!
My son is now 18 and still cannot talk, print his name, add, subtract, read, shave himself, wash his hair, brush his teeth, etc. I have been asking one question in particular for over 12 years...Just WHO is behind this pandemic??? We are heading for an entire generation (and more) of a population that CANNOT defend itself....wouldn't THAT be an easy take over...???

Teresa Conrick

Joy de Vries-

"(autism has shown upon the chormosomes and genes)"

There is no autism genes or chromosomes, Joy
so there can be no "show up". What is more than likely is that you are speaking about susceptible genes--chromosomes--DNA etc to a toxin(s). This would explain why thimerosal laden flu vaccines are so dangerous for a fetus, or living near a coal fired power plant.

It is possible that those who say that their child was "born" with autism are seeing a dna injured child and then those that regress are the ones who had no in vitro damage but got it at the doctor's office via vaccination. Same injury but different timing and/or different toxicant.

The brainwashing from the gene researchers has got to stop. It would be interesting to know what occupations the father's parents had or his occupation and where he grew up--was he also a vaccine recipient?


whoaa, Anne, I don't think Dr. Offit will "continue to be available" to speak on this issue. You have made some great points-probably too great. He won't address this, no way, no how.

Mike C

Great letter. I'm glad you sent it. My letter to Offit would have been much simplier.

Dear Offit:

Suck it!

Yours truely,

Yours is much more professional.



There is no question that genes are involved. But, honey, think about it. Genes are involved in the propensity for alcoholism too and, for that matter, genes are involved when it comes to the american indian and alcohol.

Do we go around looking for the genes for alcoholism? Of course not, just look at your family and you can figure out who may end up with a problem. Although this is simplistic, the same applies here. You can look at your family and "see" who may be more susceptible. But, you still have to know WHAT they are more susceptible to. The gun is the gene, the bullet is the environmental factor that is necessary to manifest as disease.

So, simply saying that your husband has Asperger's and so do his sons, ergo it is genetic is ludicrous. WHY does your husband have Asperger's? Why, for that matter does a father have ADHD? And, why does it matter? It matters ONLY when it limits the ability of these adults and children to function without a great deal of support in our society. If they do not need support, then by all means, they should not be diagnosed with a is not a problem.

What you do not seem to understand (and what Offit does not want anyone to ever look at) is that most of the children that the parents are speaking of here are not just "quirkly" they have medical problems, some severe and, because of the diagnosis of autism, they get NO TREATMENT (except for more vaccines). That is not humane.


Joy @11:54am:
"to me this seems a logical explenation to the whole expantion of autism in the world."
Genetics alone can't really account for "the whole" expansion, Joy. The incidence is increasing to a larger extent than merely genetics can account for. Another explanation: A combination of genetics and environmental influences. Example: At least some of the genes that have been found to be associated with autism code for glutamate. Glutamate (1) in the wrong place is a neurotoxin, thus causing brain damage to varying degrees; (2) is put in live-virus vaccines (as a stabilizer). In the latter case, that is hitting the brain in an inflammatory setting to start with. This factor is also undoubtedly why many kids on the spectrum get better on a CF/GF diet (glutamate is high in both milk & wheat products). They would also benefit from eliminating MSG from their diets. It's multifactorial, Joy. (Including the fact that glutamate lowers glutathione levels, and thus makes it more difficult for the child to process heavy metals/toxins.)

 Ben's Mom

Thanks Anne! By the way, Doris Trauner the physician in San Diego who admitted that there is a real increase is an nationally recognized expert Pediatric Neurologist who specializes in Landau-Kleffner and other epileptic syndromes that might be mistaken for autism. She has worked quite diligently to try to disprove/dispel our believe that our child was vaccine injured and despite years of genetic works ups to explain the regressions, that's the only logical explanation. I am encouraged to see this quote from her, although it is a bit backhanded.

Joy de Vries

Hi Anne, thank you for your research on this issue. speaking from my experience as a mother of two boys both diagnosed with Autism spectrum: their father has Aspergers and so do they (autism has shown upon the chormosomes and genes). doesn't this mean that every autistic adult who gets on avarage 2 kids will "double the rates"?
to me this seems a logical explenation to the whole expantion of autism in the world.


Hmm...I see alot of elderly parents in public with their Downs adult children with them. Always have. What I've never seen, on the other hand, is an elderly parent out in public with their non-verbal adult child, who is physically undistinguishable from others, twirling a string and/or seemingly oblivious to the people around them. I'm not saying they aren't out there at all, but obviously not in enough numbers to have been casually observed throughout my lifetime.

To deny the epidemic is insanity. I fear for my two adult sons on the spectrum.

Maurine Meleck

Anne, What a great and thorough report. Here is my personal experience. In 2001, my grandson was mainsteramed totally in a pre-K class. He was the first child diagnosed with autism in Aiken county, SC, to be mainstreamed all the way thru elementary school.Now, campared to 2001, there are dozens of autistic children in Aiken County being mainstreamed in classrooms. There are also self contained classrooms in almost every school for the autistic children that were never there before. This is about as frightening as it gets.


Considering the very very poor outcome found in adults living with autism, they better brace for some very serious problems when those hordes hit adulthood:

Autism after adolescence: population-based 13- to 22-year follow-up study of 120 individuals with autism diagnosed in childhood.
BACKGROUND: Prospective population-based follow-up study of 120 individuals with autism followed from childhood to adulthood. METHODS: Individuals with autism, diagnosed in childhood, were followed prospectively for a period of 13-22 years and re-evaluated at ages 17-40 years. ... A set of criteria was used for the classification of outcomes, taking into consideration employment, higher education/vocational training, independent living and peer relations. RESULTS: Six of the 120 (5%) had died at the time of follow-up, and six declined participation. Overall outcome was poor in 78% of cases. Only FOUR (THAT IS FOUR OUT OF ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHT!!!!!) individuals were independent albeit leading fairly isolated lives. .. CONCLUSIONS: Children with autism as diagnosed in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s may have an even worse psychosocial outcome than previously believed. PMID: 16119476 Billstedt E et al J Autism Dev Disord. 2005 Jun;35(3):351-60.


Excellent Anne.

Call around to the various states and ask about their growing waiting lists for any kind of autism or DD waiver they might have. So if the schools and the "experts" want to play the shell game- fine. But the waiver programs have long long long waiting lists. The numbers are unreal. Even if we are now calling it autism when we used to call it something else (which is ridiculous) the numbers don't lie. We have an unprecedented number of disabled children racing to adulthood. Why? What is happening to our kids? And we are nowhere near prepared to deal with them. States are still fumbling to get early intervention programs in place. And the big recent news- early intervention works. My kid had EI because we found it and funded it on our own. But guess what? He's still really autistic and needs a lot of help and support and as you said-these needs aren't going to vanish.

The future scares the hell out of me.


Excellent! I hope the "expert" responds...


good luck getting a response.


Fantastic piece Anne.

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