This thread gives me a headache, but nice debate. I love this blog, but also sometimes like to visit a blog without seeing World War III in progress in some post or another.

I am not saying this is not a good thing, just that as a parent of a child with autism, sometimes I just cannot stand it. Lisa Jo Rudy's About Autism Blog, http://autism.about.com/, gets my vote for the best autism site without a lot of bloodshed. This is especially true since Lisa Jo started cracking the whip. It's great to see so many blogs on every conceivable side of our issues. That is a good thing and I know, just sometimes, I like to put myself in timeout for awhile and ignore the debating. Both sides are good at setting up a Straw Man argument and oversimplifying their "opponent's positions", so they can knock them down. The messengers on both sides of many of these issues are seriously flawed and quote frankly, I am surprised things are not MORE personal than they are now.

Going to take to Tylenol,
FJH
http://autismparents.net

Sigh.

Not that this is important but yes. I'm a US medical student. I am months away from being an MD. I am neck deep in loans (bringing that up on this site was not well received) and I will not be driving a new car nor will I be financially stable for many years to come but yes, I do consider myself to be part of the medical community. Sorry if that offends you. Many on here have lumped me into the "doctor" category and I corrected them many months back (take a look in the archives if that tickles your fancy). My comments are warranted from previous posts here and previous conversations.

I have taken three sets of medical boards which will give me and MD but the Pediatric boards are still a few years away, if that's what you are referring to. Pediatric boards make you board certified. They don't give you and MD. That is already done. So I will be a doctor soon. I don't have long to go at all actually. I've been through 3rd and am virtually done with 4th year.

Also, with regards to referring to patients as "mine" , you should know, since you seem a med school expert that those are semantics. I know they do not belong to me, nor do I treat them on my own. I think those who read this blog are smart enough to understand that I am referring to the patients I encounter. Nurses in pediatrics often refer to their patients as "my kids", and nobody assumes that they mean their children. It is understood that it is jargon. Hope that answers your questions about the status of my studies and salary and loan situation. Oh and I have a 10 year old beater car that I paid for by working for years before medical school. I come from a middle class family and I have put myself through medical school without any help from anyone. I think that covers all your questions.

Re: Dr. Offit, in a nutshell, it's hard to ignore his involvement with vaccinations and his personal gain from their success. I can't think of much else to say about him at the moment.

Twyla

While I agree that the error seems to have been perpetuated on both sides of the argument Haviranasab's account conforms with what I have been told twice by authoritative communication.

Carrie,

Sorry for getting you in trouble by asking the Jenny question.

I was just trying to see if it was unfounded suspicion or some legit complaint that I had not heard yet that needed to be addresses.

Some pediatricians have been telling people that her son was never autistic, a charge she has responded to by sending them Evans UCLA evaluations with his autism diagnosis. I wanted to be sure that it was not that unfounded rumor.

Jenny has generated (and given) tons.

But enough about Jenny already.

I will give you as detailed a response as I can on those. But it won't be today

Twyla makes a common error in stating that Thimerosal is 49.6% ethyl mercury. Correctly this should 49.6% inorganic mercury. The error is also made in the PEDIATRICS study Andrews et al, conducted by the UK Public Health Service Laboratory (now incorporated in to our Health Protection Agency) on behalf of the World Health Organization:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/584

Not only was this not noticed by the six authors, it was also presumably not pointed out by any of the intensely knowledgeable pre-publication reviewers, the secret audiences of the World Health Organization and CDC, or the aseembled Institute of Medicine meeting, to whom Prof Miller presented the paper.

Read Janine Roberts expose on vaccines "Fear of the Invisible", the industry and those involved in developing and distributing them; horrific corruption ignoring known vaccine-induced causes of mortality and morbidity in our children whilst re-inventing those outcomes as due to 'HIV', 'AIDS', 'autism', and other major epidemics that emerge out of what ought to be recognisable vaccine-induced events.

Viruses are already suspected by many scientists of being cell-generated tools for healthy communication and modification of the bodily environment as opposed to dangerous contaminants of the human body - the science of virology which underpins vaccination is flawed; it fails the basic tests of science and scientific integrity so what of vaccination, a technique designed to target inter and intracellular tools for healthy communication and modification of our healthy environments, by ignorantly disrupting this tool the outcomes can be expected - epidemics of death and diseases once unknown.

"Curious Mom" –

Please spare us your "deepest sympathy" -- what a joke, a bad joke.

re: Mark & Davie Geier’s research – I do not have the expertise & credentials to argue that point, but I will say that the vaccine-autism table has many legs, and even if you completely removed the Geier leg, the table would still stand.

You say that Dr. Wakefield’s research has been "completely invalidated…" That BS is constantly repeated, but it is not true. Other researchers have also found measles virus in the colons if kids with autism who also have inflammatory bowel disease. Dr. Wakefield listened to his patients' parents, who said that their children's problems started when they received the MMR. He tried to investigate and treat these kids' pain. For this he was persecuted. See www.cryshame.co.uk. I have seen him speak. He makes sense. The parents of his patients speak highly of him. They are not complaining.

In regard to tuna fish sandwiches, mothers are advised by the FDA to limit consumption of tuna while pregnant. And nobody feeds tuna to their infants.

Regarding ethyl and methyl mercury:

Thimerosal is 49.6% ethyl mercury. Although ethyl mercury has not been studied as much as its cousin methyl mercury, ethyl mercury is also extremely toxic, even in miniscule amounts. Just a few references:

Accidental ethyl mercury poisoning with nervous system, skeletal muscle, and myocardium injury.
J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry. 1980 February; 43(2): 143–149.
I Cinca, I Dumitrescu, P Onaca, A Serbänescu, and B Nestorescu

www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=490489&pageindex=6#page

In this article, four case reports are presented of patients who ate the meat of a hog which was inadvertently fed seed treated with fungicides containing ethyl mercury chloride. Two of the patients died. The article states that: "The clinical, electrophysiological, and toxicological, and in two of the patients the pathological data, showed that this organic mercury compound has a very high toxicity not only for the brain, but also for the spinal motoneurones, peripheral nerves, skeletal muscles, and myocardium."

Go to www.putchildrenfirst.org/media/6.23.pdf to read an article from the journal Toxicological Sciences about a study from the Dept. of Neurosurgery, Baylor College of Medicine concluding, "Our data indicate that thimerosal is toxic to human neurons and fibroblasts if applied in micromolar concentrations..."

Go to www.putchildrenfirst.org/media/6.18.pdf to read Eli Lilly and Company’s own Material Safety Data Sheet for Thimerosal, which states in part:

Exposure Guidelines: Thimerosal - No known occupational exposure limits established.

Mercury - (Alkyl compounds, as Hg) PEL 0.01 mg/m3 TWA, 0.4 mg/m3 ceiling. (Aryl compounds, as Hg) TLV 0.1 mg/m3 TWA (skin). BEI 35 micrograms total inorganic mercury per gram of creatinine sampled in urine before the shift. BEI 15 micrograms of total inorganic mercury per liter of blood sampled at the end of shift at the end of workweek…

Primary Physical and Health Hazards: Skin Permeable. Toxic. Mutagen. Irritant (eyes). Allergen. Nervous System and Reproductive Effects.

Caution Statement: Thimerosal may enter the body through the skin, is toxic, alters genetic material, may be irritating to the eyes, and causes allergic reactions. Effects of exposure may include numbness of extremities, fetal changes, decreased offspring survival, and lung tissue changes.

Effects of Overexposure: Topical allergic dermatitis has been reported. Thimerosal contains mercury. Mercury poisoning may occur and topical hypersensitivity reactions may be seen. Early signs of mercury poisoning in adults are nervous system effects, including narrowing of the visual field and numbness in the extremities. Exposure to mercury in utero and in children may cause mild to severe mental retardation and mild to severe motor coordination impairment. Based on animal data, may be irritating to the eyes…

Carcinogenicity: No carcinogenicity data found. Not listed by IARC, NTP, ACGIH, or OSHA…

Chronic Exposure
Thimerosol is a mercuric compound. Toxicity data for thimerosal and mercury are presented.
Target Organ Effects:
Thimerosal - Kidney effects (tubule necrosis), lung effects (tissue changes).
Mercury - Nervous system effects (insomnia, tremor, anorexia, weakness, headache), liver effects (jaundice, digestive effects (hypermotility, diarrhea).
Other Effects:
Thimerosal - Decreased weight gain.
Reproduction:
Thimerosal - Decreased offspring survival.
Mercury - Changes in sperm production, decreased offspring survival, and offspring nervous system effects including mild to severe mental retardation and motor coordination impairment.
Sensitization:
No applicable information found.
Mutagenicity:
Thimerosal - Mutagenic in mammalian cells. Not mutagenic in bacterial cells.

***

As others have posted, thimerosal is still in most flu shots, which are on the mandated schedule annually starting at six months. Other vaccines still contain "trace" amounts of thimerosal. And exported vaccines contain full doses of thimerosal.

All of you scrutinizing Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carrey, or any other "rich" person...it's just none of your business what they do with their money. The Bible says when we give to do so in secret. Would all of you want a press conference any time you donate any of your money? It's just none of our business, God gave the funds they have to them, it's between God & them how they choose to use it.

For the peds in this world: I do feel sorry for any ped making only $85k/yr. My husband isn't too terribly far from that & doesn't have a bachelor's degree, much less 8 yrs of school + internship. No, they shouldn't be a physician just for the money, but if I went through the $100k student loans, a decade of my life, etc, I would hope to make more than $85k.

Carrie-

I asked this earlier but never got a response. You are a doctor yet you have taken this blog and put the focus on Jenny and what you don't like about her. I asked your thoughts about Dr. Offit as he is also a doctor and kind of "your" spokesperson. So, how do you feel about him?

In my opinion bottle feeding and vaccines underlie (oops 'underlie' is a term favored by medical community) autism.

Please, try the following for something to think about:

Give preventing autism a chance

The Lucile Packard Foundation reports increases in autistic children in schools (Times, 7/17/2008) and a prominent doctor (Discover, April 2007) laments both bouts of diarrhea and many episodes of ear infections in regressive autistic children.

How about preventing autism, or at least provide some relief for the children and their parents? The severity of colitis and Crohn’s is related to the duration of bottle feeding. (Rigas, 1993) Four months of exclusive breast feeding protects against ear infections. (Duncan, 1993) Perhaps those who advocate breast feeding are correct.

Complications of measles, diarrhea and ear infections, are also listed on the vaccine insert as adverse effects of MMR vaccinations. Perhaps the parents who reported regression following vaccination are correct.

Kanner, in addition to being wrong about mothers, also overlooked the role of refrigerators in storing baby bottles and vaccines.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
My qualifications: I discovered that treating my obstructive sleep apnea also treated my ulcerative colitis. Others, on a sleep apnea bulletin board, in response to my request for confirmation or refutation, confirmed my experience.

In the October 2003 issue of JADD is my letter to the editor. The topic was the role of sleep apnea in ear infections. (There is no text on the internet.) (At the end of an apnea there is a rapid expulsion of air. This 'puff' of air opens the eustachian tube and blows infectious organisms and products of digestion into the middle ear. Tasker (2002)speaks of gastric juices and glue ear in children. Herr (2001) speaks of sleep apnea opens the esophageal sphincter and allows contents out of the stomach. (I suspect that the diaphragm by trying harder when an obstructions occurs does some squeezing of the stomach occurs. Disclosure: JADD (2003) is also mine.

Once I 'bumped into Wakefield's 1998 paper' I felt the best way to get revenge on sleep apnea was to tackle autism.

For more please try:
http://www.sleepnet.com/apnea133/messages/829.html

Just to add, this was not a safe career move for Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey: indeed it was a recklessly courageous one. No one speaks out. If you look at the UK the families of our last two Prime Ministers John Major and Tony Blair have been affected autism (in the latter case at least by heavy rumour), and also that of David Cameron, present Conservative leader, who will be Prime Minister within two years. But no one speaks out. A leading British actress, Juliet Stevenson, was pilloried because she took part in a drama about Andrew Wakefield. Nobody would do what Jenny and Jim have done for easy advantage.

"One of Carrey's movie salaries could probably fund 10 studies. Ten studies that could give us so much more information, instead of hearsay and she said/he said."

Carrie:

NEWSFLASH: It is *NOT* Jim Carrey's responsibility to fund research -- that is the RESPONSIBILITY of the government and the manufacturer who puts a drug out on the market!

Seriously, who are *YOU* to tell someone else how to spend their money??

The gall that some people have absolutely astounds me.

Bottom Line: You are in absolutely NO position to tell Jim Carrey what he should and should not spend his money on. To think otherwise is arrogance -- plain and simple.

CuriousMom: Maybe they've been able to lower the viral load in the vaccines because they've pumped up the levels of aluminum adjuvant to maximize the effects. And NOBODY is minding the store on aluminum right now. But it's as neurotoxic as mercury. Which, as someone pointed out below, is still in the shots. And they've added more and more different viruses to the schedule with no combined testing. It's an utter mess and if I had to do it over again I would skip all of them until someone straightens it out.

Kelli Ann, I swear to God and everything else: I do NOT envy McCarthy. You are right in saying I am assuming a lot and if she proves me wrong, then I will be the first to apologize, but I was asked why I don't trust her and that is partly why. Doctors were criticized on this very blog for having their large paychecks suffer -- I don't remember the details but basically not helping innocent children when they could... I'm just pointing out the obvious. Here is your biggest supporter. Another mother in a situation where she is more privileged than so many others...She could do SO much. One of Carrey's movie salaries could probably fund 10 studies. Ten studies that could give us so much more information, instead of hearsay and she said/he said.

And if time is money, then I'd say you are all giving a helluva lot more to this cause.

“Jenny McCarthy has yet to donate a dime to this cause (as far as I know).”

“…her boyfriend who is now regarded as Evan's second father openly makes an average of 20mill per movie. That is more money than we will all make combined. He has yet to donate any money to research for autism or anything autism related (as far as I know).”

Carrie:

With all due respect, that’s a whole lot of *assumption* on your part and you’re correct – you *don’t know* -- so why would you even try to speculate on it???

Sounds to me like your main *dislike* of Jenny might have something to do with one of the 7 Deadly Sins, no?

FYI: Jim and Jenny just hosted a huge fundraiser for Generation Rescue in their home and I’m guessing they probably shelled out a *penny or two* to entertain their Hollywood guests. And let’s not forget that *time is money* and the *fact* is they both have donated tons of their time to promote our cause.

Bottom Line: Jim and Jenny ROCK!

Sorry, I meant David, not Dan.

One of your better pieces, Dan. Personally I've always suspected that, except for a very few, mercury was not the main issue, although it sure as heck has no place in vaccines or amalgams. I believe the schedule's timing and multiple, stronger delivery systems might very well turbocharge risk for kids with immune system issues. The work of Pardo on inflammation certainly points to an immune connection at birth less/plus several months. Dr. Healy is sensible. Dr. Offit is not.

Thank you for your comments regarding my previous post and thanks especially to those who shared their stories with me. I appreciate it and I apologize for making you relive such horrible memories. It does help though...Because we do talk about these things and I like to bring up your points of view.

Kim, you are right in saying that this blog shouldn't be held at the same standard as medical professionals discussing this in the public eye. However, discussions on this topic should be held to some sort of standard because were you given the chance, I am sure you would be speaking publicly on behalf of your fellow parents. Actually, you sort of are, aren't you? You have a picture of yourself on here, you aren't hiding behind an alias and just because you aren't a medical professional doesn't mean you can get personal ...I'm not attacking you specifically, I'm just using you as an example, hope you don't mind. This blog is also "in the public eye" to some extent and if you want to have discussions , I'm not quite sure many docs would come back here after the initial blow. I still can't believe I did. Regardless, getting personal sucks either way. That's my only point. Also, to answer your question, friendship is a two way road.

DR: This statement frustrates me: "And since when have bloggers been held to the same standards as preeminent researchers and health authorities? ". If health authorities voice anything about their status, they are called pompous, arrogant and are told to sit down and shut up and are reminded that having a medical degree doesn't mean anything anymore in the eyes of the public. So if that is the case, then why have any standards for them at all? Like I said above, we should all be held to some sort of standard. I agree that a blog is different from a public debate but still, it's hard for me to swallow that it's okay for you to do it here.

Andrea and Jenna. I did not claim that the entire medical community was neutral. I only gave you a bit of information from the community I am involved with. I do not know what goes on at Hopkins, I'm sorry. I'm not quite there yet. What I do know, is that in my community, at my hospital, in my clinic, there is a neutral stance (of course, like I said, some docs are still very against the idea of vaccinations being linked to autism). But more and more docs are not rejecting it (that doesn't mean they are accepting it either), but they are open to alternative schedules, open to reading about it, open to research and definitely DEFINITELY agree that something is up. Hundreds of thousands of parents cannot be crazy or mistaken. Something is up. What? Like some of you said, we have no idea. We need more data, more research. There are discussions about this, where I come from. My only regret at this point is that I don't think there are enough discussions about it. It is something I intend to follow up with after graduation. I'd like to give a talk at some point and invite a few parents to share their stories with us. But I digress.

Tim, I wasn't trying to limit my discussion to fevers. I guess I was just curious because a lot of parents had mentioned fevers when telling their stories, so I was wondering if they felt the fever was the triggering cause. Many DO mention this, right? "My child was fine, got his shots, spiked a fever, cried unconsolably and was never the same afterwards"...Right?

Garbo: I did like this statement: "child being exposed in nature to diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, and varicella on the same day are pretty slim." I can't dispute that.

Ginger Taylor: Here are the articles I was perusing, specifically.

1- Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study. AU Ray P; Hayward J; Michelson D; Lewis E; Schwalbe J; Black S; Shinefield H; Marcy M; Huff K; Ward J; Mullooly J; Chen R; Davis R SO Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

2- Boostrix (Tetanus toxoid, reduced diphtheria toxoid and acellular pertussis vaccine, adsorbed). Prescribing Information. Glaxo Smith Kline Biologicals, Marburt, Germany, 2005.

3- American Academy of Pediatrics. Pertussis. In: Red Book: 2006 Report of the Committee on Infectious Diseases, 27th ed, Pickering, LK (Ed), American Academy of Pediatrics, Elk Grove Village, IL 2006. p.498.

By the way, your son is very cute. About Jenny McCarthy...there is too much to name. But I brought up the issue of money once. I feel as though Pediatricians (who make an average of 85K per year) are constantly scrutinized for their salaries and I recall a post on this blog where a lot of you said "boohoo , the poor pediatricians will have to ride an acura instead of a BMW" or something of that genre because some pediatricians had raised a fuss regarding vaccinations costing too much. Jenny McCarthy has yet to donate a dime to this cause (as far as I know). When I brought that up, somebody said she had to take a mortgage out on her house to write her book and what not. The point is, she has most definitely gained from this exposure. And whether or not she took out a mortgage, the fact is, her boyfriend who is now regarded as Evan's second father openly makes an average of 20mill per movie. That is more money than we will all make combined. He has yet to donate any money to research for autism or anything autism related (as far as I know). So going on Oprah and LKL and being rude is not enough for me to trust that she is in it only for the mothers. I am not belittling her experience. Absolutely not. She was a mom who went through a horrible thing and she serves your community well. I just don't trust her. Can't help it. Oh and the fact that she is famous for being a playboy bunny, sorry but it's not exactly something I admire. But now I'm getting personal and being a hypocrite.

Great article, David! Thanks for continuing the pursuit of the truth. (Love the mud-slinging picture too, Kim!)

This whole issue is turning out to be "all doctors who want the truth vs Paul Offit". It is a theme that included us parents vs him, the NYT, and a host of others but the tide is turning as he is having to explain his actions with often unjustified, unreferenced facts (could that be another word for falsehoods)to his peers aka, medical doctors. Let's hope most MD's prefer not to be his peer as honesty and integrity are not part of his personality.

To all parents of developmentally delayed children of all kinds....my deepest sympathy.

I do have a couple of questions regarding the vaccine/autism controversy.

When you quote research linking autism and thimerisol, are you well aware that Mark and David Geier's research has been completely invalidated methodologically and ethically?

When you quote research linking autism and MMR, are you well aware that Wakefield's research has been completely invalidated methodologically and ethically?

When you propose links to viral overload and autism, are you well aware that the CURRENT viral load of all vaccinations combined is only 150 proteins compared to the PAST viral load for the polio vaccine alone was 200 proteins, demonstrating a marked decrease in the proteins children are now exposed to?

When you quote the NOW ELIMINATED "mercury overload" from thimerisol-containing vaccines as many times the federal limit, that those limits are based on METHYL-mercury NOT the ETHYL-mercury of thimerisol. AND that these two chemicals cannot be compared in ANY way regarding exposure limits OR body elimination time? Geier, a "researcher and scientist" used these two interchangeably to reach his UNFOUNDED conclusion about thimerisol exposure.

As for mercury exposure, at what age did you first introduce canned tunafish to your child? How often did you eat the same while you were pregnant? As you know this product contains high levels of METHYL-mercury.

The NEJM piece yesterday was ridiculous. When adverse reactions are only monitored for 15 days through diary entries (the same kind of anecdotal evidence the scientific community admonishes) - and the vaccine maker performs THEIR OWN safety and purity analyses, Offit can say whatever he wants about FDA approval. It's laughable. Any honest review of commercial vaccine production should alarm even the most liberal of vaccine enthusiasts.

Carrie,

Great questions, however it seems by trying to limit the discussion to fevers, it appears you need to do a lot more work to research thimerosal, vaccines and autism. There is a lot more going on than just fevers, regardless of whether they are natural or vaccine induced.

A lot of our kids were given 12.5 mcg of mercury day of birth, 62.5 mcg at 8 weeks(which is 11,023% over EPA daily exposure limit for 12.5 lb. infant for that day), 50 mcg at 4 months and another 62.5 mcg at 6 months - 187.5 mcg of 50,000 ppb mercury by 6 months of age.

100 ppb causes immune system cell death (Pessah)
10 ppb causes immune system inhibition (Pessah)
5 to 6 ppb causes progenitor brain stem cells to stop dividing
3 ppb causes brain neuron cell death (Haley)
0.2 ppb (1/5th of 1 ppb) causes inhibition of enzyme methionine synthetase –the main pathway of mercury excretion in the body (Waly/Deth),
0.2 ppb (1/5th of 1 ppb) causes genotoxic effects in cultured human peripheral lymphocyte cells (Eke D, Celik A)

Low levels such as these also inhibit the production of heme by blocking the porphyrin
pathway; decrease in heme production prevents the normal production of hemoglobin and affects the production of glutathione, an important antioxidant. Decreasing of heme levels makes one susceptible to many other toxins.

We are told that these in vitro / in vivo studies can not prove the same will happen in an infant - It is important you know that it has never been proven that it will not.

We are told that thimerosal is safely absorbed and is out of the blood within 7 days - How reassuring is that? Considering the damage done at concentrations up to 250,000 less than what is sitting in an infants leg or arm for who knows how long, it is not a stretch for us to consider it is causing SOME damage.

And what do you know about the absorbtion rate of the 50,000 ppb of mercury sitting in the arm or leg of an infant, or the routes it takes in the body? Consider this comment:

"IM (intra muscular) absorption of some drugs in infants and young children may be unpredictable due in part to insufficient muscle tone and vascularity of muscle tissue."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FSS/is_2_14/ai_n17209134/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

Never mind also that we have known for for years that rats fed a milk diet and given antibiotics (think recurring ear infections) increases the time it takes to excrete mercury from about 7 days to 100 days (think over 3 months).

It all sounds real reassuring doesn't it?

So Carrie, it goes far beyond the fever - it concerns what a fever has done to a body that has already been subjected to the ravages of mercury toxicity.

It is surprising is that three days on the one thing we do not have is an article about Jenkins's remarkable disclosure. What I take it she is saying is that privately in the circles of pediatricians and health officials they talk about 3 in a hundred chidren being significantly damaged by the vaccine programme. No one has said this publicly before.

Andrea,
My letter asking for clarification of Dr. Jenkins remarks went out in yesterday's mail. I'm glad to hear it won't be alone because I'm afraid mine was a little too inflammatory to get much of a real response.

Carrie, rememering my son before his vaccination and seeing him as he is now is the very definition of bittersweet. My son was highly intelligent at 18 months old. He was walking, had a very respectible vocabulary (30 to 50 words), was very sweet and affectionate (my family still talk about how sweet his hugs were). His last words to me on the day of his DTaP were "Go Bye Bye!" A few hours after his vaccination, he had a very high fever (105), was screaming unconsolably, arching his back. His eyes were glazed and far away, and he didn't want anyone or anything to touch him. We called his pediatrician, who told us that this was normal (!!!). We brought him to the ER, and they did several tests, including a CAT scan. They found that he had an encepalopathy that was brought on by his fever, which was caused by his vaccination. My son didn't speak to me for 5 years after that. He quit walking until he was nearly 2 and a half, when he was diagnosed with ASD and sensory integration disorder (He can't feel hot water, so we have to watch him carefully when he's taking a bath). He wouldn't look us in the eye or smile at all until he was 4. We recently started him on the GFCF and Chelation (with a temporary pause in there while we tested him for Celiac), and on Father's Day he said his 1st word in 5 years ("Daddy!"). Since then, he says "Momma", "Yeah", "No no", and "shit" (heh). I know it doesn't seem like a lot, but when he is silent for 5 years, every word is a treasure (even shit....we don't discourage him from saying it).

Anyway, I wanted to share that with you. I'm happy that you are so willing to learn about our children. Good luck to you.

Snookered,

Yes - it does seem odd. Please feel free (anyone) to contact Dr. Jenkins for clarification on her 97 plus percent of children don't have these defects. The producer assured me the AAP would be happy to help with information. Maybe you'll get an AAP autism packet!

American Academy of Pediatrics, 141 Northwest Point Blvd., Elk Grove Village, IL, 60007

Phone: 847-434-4000

Updated AAP info on vaccines:
http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases/aug08vaccinatefamily.htm

"They recommend tailored vaccination schedules if need be AND (!!!) one of them had a few paragraphs on vaccine induced encephalopathy which somebody had asked me about before. So it is out there."

YAY!!! That was me!

Can you tell me what the source is on this?

My son had fevers after his Hep B shot at 3 weeks. They were every two or three days and they lasted for three months. (I think that his chance of being exposed to Hep B in childhood and getting fevers from that would have been approaching zero). He was a low key baby, but he hit all his milestones and was happy, social, flirty even (I need to put together video of before an and after.

At his 18 month check up he had 6 words. He was given that same Hep B shot he reacted to along with the rest (he never should have gotten it again after the newborn dose reactions). I can't remember if he spiked a fever after that round of shots, because honestly, if he had, after the fever storm that we had after his birth, I would not have thought anything of it if it was not that high or he was that miserable, because I associated fevers with vaccinating (as peds tell you to expect sometimes). But after that he just got much more quiet and started keeping to himself. He slowly went down hill developmentally over the following six weeks, lost eye contact, stopped answering to his name, stopped calling us mommy and daddy and by his two year appointment only had two words, "uh oh" and "all done" which he didn't really say to us any more, he just said to himself when he spilled or was done eating.

My grandfather died during that six week period, so I was not paying close attention to Chandler, and when I think back I just remember being grateful that he being so quiet and undemanding while we were dealing with all that.

The first time I knew something was wrong was six weeks out on Halloween. It was the first time I had taken him out and made any demands of him and it was a miserable day for mommy and Chandler.

Here is a longer account with some before and after pictures: http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2005/02/introduction-to-chandler-birth-to.html

It is a bit 'sanitized' as on of my girlfriends who was reading the blog at the time was actually the pediatrician who had administered his shots and I was walking a delicate balance in trying to bring her around to what was going on with out freaking her out.

And to address the (wouldn't they have gotten a fever from the disease question... Our kids often regress after their 18 month vaccinations. At that point they are being vaccinated for around 7 diseases at once. There is almost no chance of them catching measles and mumps and rubella and chicken pox and then some, in the real world.

Also, by that time, they usually have already gotten two doses of most of the vaccines they are getting which means that they have more than a 90% chance of already creating the antibodies for the diseases and almost none of our kids even needed the shots that made them regress.

Thanks for asking such good questions!

Can I ask what it is you don't trust about Jenny McCarthy?

Andrea,

Good investigating but I think the reps were trying to snow you a bit. The 3% is relating to autism? So now the AMA is saying 1 in 33 kids has autism? That seems a little bit odd doesn't it?

Hi Carrie:

My daughter's old babysitter, who just graduated with her M.D. from Johns Hopkins Medical School, has informed me that the school "unequivocally" takes the position that there is no association between vaccines and autism, and that the science is well settled on this point.

She saw my son at his worst and recently was at our home where she observed his very typical behavior, after having lost his autism diagnosis. I asked her to explain the difference in him and she gave the same explanation offered by my pediatrician--"we're now seeing that a certain subset of these children simply outgrow their diagnosis". She refused to acknowledge that any of the treatment modalities we had utilized had anything to do with his recovery (even all the ABA!)

So if she and my pediatrician exemplify the general consensus in the medical community, and I am not sure that is the case, we still have a lot of work to do.

Jenna

Oh, and thanks DK for another wonderul article and the time you take in caring for this topic.

Carrie,

I'll do my best to be more civil than last time..

1) This is an arguement that comes up from time to time, that if a vaccination can trigger this cascade into autism, why not a normal infection? My answer would be that it is a great folly (and I don't mean that in a disrespectful, but rather philosophical way) to assume that we now know everything there is to know about the immune system. Science grows everyday and I think it is wrong to assume that a virus (live attentuated or dead) injected into the bloodstream of an infant has the same effects as an infection recieved naturally at a later age. What processing of that virus goes on as the virus enters the body via the skin or GI tract by immune system mechansims we don't yet understand and know about? I don't know. Nobody does. Scientists (and I know because I am one and have worked in the biotech. industry for 12 years) have always been guilty of assuming they now have a complete understanding of things, but that has yet to be the case in history. We are always learning more and I fear that when it comes to vaccines our efforts have been ahead of our knowledge. And I think that goes for our assumption of safety on all the chemcials, etc. we've been producting and injesting in the last decades.

#2: If you want I could give lots of details about our twins and their recovery. It is a very real story I'd be happen to share, but it would be long one and it is a continuing battle. For here I'll just say for us it wasn't a lights out kind of thing. They were very premature and always behind although they met age-adjusted milestones. It wasn't til we went back and looked at old videos and saw them looking at each other giggling and crawling around after each other, etc that I really believed they had regressed. From 1 year until we started biomed at 2 1/2 they had no acknowledgement of each other.

Carrie,
I wish now that we had a video camera. We actually delayed Tanners shots for school until the very last minute possible. Before the regression there were developmental delays but he said about 100 words. At most in five word combinations. He did fixate on "I want to drive". He laughed, showed affection, chewed his food, fed himself, rode his bike, rode his little tikes car. shot the basketball...It is hard to rehash everytime someone wants to have this conversation. All I know is that he was what I would call "present". After the shots he was not. We can debate, attack, scream, and yell but until we find a way to heal and help this debate will continue to cost us emotionally, financially, and spirtually. Ultimately, I believe this may be the path to extinction of the human race. I know it is quite an extrapolation but when one cannot care for themselves and procreate... What happens next?

About being personal, I think we are all guilty of that and it is no secret. I admit to personally attacking J. McCarthy on several occasions (I still don't trust her but that's another issue) and you all have attacked Amanda Peet personally many many MANY times. That her movies stink, that she's not well known enough, that she's ugly, etc, etc. Same thing was done several months ago to me when I posted my opinion on this site. Unfortunately getting personal has become the name of the game here and I think Dr. Healy handled it as well as it can be handled. Just rise above it.

With that being said, I do have several questions that I would appreciate answers to, for those of you who are willing to have a civil conversation.

#1- Many of you have said that your children spiked a fever after being given the vaccination, correct? Is this what you believe triggered the series of events that lead your child to autism? Because if yes, your child would have spiked the same fever had he/she actually gotten the disease in question, no? I know I am missing something here so explanations are much appreciated. I guess I just wonder how you know it is the vaccine preservatives causing the regression and not the dead virus itself (which, without vaccinations, your child would be susceptible to getting at a much greater scale). Does that make sense?

#2-I have read many recovery stories on your site but they don't go into much detail about what happened exactly after being given the vaccination. I especially want to understand what milestones specifically your children were reaching prior to the vaccination (how many words? and now how many words?). Was your child ever affectionate? Things like that...if your'e willing to share, I would greatly appreciate it.

Anyway, on a more positive note, I wanted to tell you this as well. While there are many docs out there who are still old school and will not tolerate this debate (will ask you to seek another doctor if you bring it up even), there are many more younger doctors who are more open minded about this issue. I see many of them holding off vaccines if they see even the slightest sign that suggests autism. I think this is a good thing.

One last thing, many of you had asked what they teach in medical school about this topic. Well, I was doing some reading yesterday and the latest sources do definitely address this issue and stay neutral in their assessment. They don't support either argument (again, i think it's a good thing). They recommend tailored vaccination schedules if need be AND (!!!) one of them had a few paragraphs on vaccine induced encephalopathy which somebody had asked me about before. So it is out there. Hopefully I made some of you a little happy to know that.