One more comment to Carrie -
I went to the "Science-Based Medicine" article "Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carrey, and 'Green Our Vaccines': Anti-vaccine, not 'pro-safe vaccine'" to which you posted a link.

I could not find any useful scientific information in this article -- the author speaks mainly in generalities and slurs.

His main point seems to be that although we say we are for safer vaccines and that we are not "anti-vaccine", he thinks the "green our vaccines" motto is just a crafty subterfuge and that we are actually against vaccines. While there are some people who are against all vaccines, most of us believe that there is tremendous value in some vaccines, but that there are also risks that are not being adequately monitored and studied. He ridiculed people who want "100% safety". Most of us understand that 100% is not possible. But the increasing levels of autism, learning disabilities, allergies, asthma, and auto-immune disorders are not acceptable trade-offs for what were once common childhood diseases. Yes, we need to vaccinate for polio -- but HepB for all babies at birth? That's crazy!

What does this writer, Dr. David Gorski - aka "Orac" -- think is parents' motivation for (according to him) pretending to be for safer vaccines but actually being anti-vaccine? What could be our ulterior motive? What do parents get out of not vaccinating their babies, or vaccinating at a slower rate and not giving so many -- do we receive power, fame, fortune, some kind of thrill? He makes it sound like there is some hidden evil greedy motivation behind the "Green our Vaccines" movement. This is ridiculous.

He says that nobody is arguing against safer vaccines. This is not true. For example, someone is arguing for continuing to put thimerosal in flu shots instead of changing to individually packaged thimerosal-free flu shots. Someone is arguing in favor of continuing to export vaccines containing thimerosal. Otherwise, these practices would have changed.

Regarding "moving the goal posts", see J.B. Handley's excellent article at www.ageofautism.com/2008/06/goalposts.html. So many parents have seen their kids have adverse reactions to vaccines and then regress into autism. The 4900 parents filing claims against the fund that reimburses for vaccine injuries, and the thousands of parents who recently marched on Washington D.C., are just the tip of the iceburg. What parents have witnessed is evidence which should be investigated -- even Dr. Bernadine Healy, former head of the NIH stated this. But this evidence is cavalierly and summarily dismissed because, we are told, "the plural of anectdotes is not evidence" and "parents don't understand science". Yet, non-scientist parents are expected to state the exact mechanism by which vaccines can cause autism. Parents say, "I don't understand this, but this is what I witnessed," and people such as Orac think that their testimony is irrelevant unless they can state with certainty the exact science, involving biochemistry, neurology, toxicology, immunology...

I could go on & on, but I would just be repeating what I have said many times before in prior posts, and everyone would get very very bored. So I will just end with some links to further information. Dr. Gorski cavalierly dismisses all research with results he doesn't like, but there is important research on our side, for example in the books I have recommended to you in prior posts.

www.ageofautism.com/2008/06/sick-hamsters-m.html - a study of hamsters with & without vaccines done by scientists in Peru who apparently are not afraid to do the kind of study that our American govt agencies refuse to do

www.generationrescue.org

www.putchildrenfirst.org - Here and in the book Evidence of Harm, see how initial research indicated a link between thimerosal and autism, but was then massaged to the point where it is now used to justify the continuing use of thimerosal.

Carrie, what do you think of Dr. Gorski's article??

Carrie –
In your prior post, you said “So the discussion , however ridiculous, is over.” I am glad that you are still discussing. Maybe you don’t find the discussion so ridiculous after all. I hope that this discussion is actually “productive” for both sides. For you, you may be learning about some perspectives on autism that you were not very familiar with, and resources for further info.

For us, I hope this is a reminder that it is not in anyone’s best interest to launch an attack on an inquisitive newcomer. Sometimes I wonder, is our primary purpose to “preach to the choir” – to communicate with those who already agree with us? Isn’t it even more important to communicate with those who are not already in our camp? If we did not have autistic kids, we might simply be lulled by the CDC’s mantra, generally repeated ad nauseum without question by the media: “Vaccines are safe; illnesses are dangerous; vaccines don’t cause autism; this is all proven beyond a doubt; parents don’t understand science…”

One never knows who one is communicating with on the internet – could be a deeply malevolent person, or could be a thoughtful person who is sincerely looking for answers. In either case, it seems worthwhile to simply express our views as articulately as we can, and if we don’t convince a particular poster, we may convince some later reader.

Regarding your last post, Carrie, you said, “We don't know anything for sure. And unfortunately, some things can't be proven. I am a person of science. I tend to stick with what I know and what has been proven by history, research and science.” We hear over and over again that vaccines have not been proven harmful. In some cases, the vaccine and the adverse effect are not clearly linked, but in other cases the link is clear. I understand the desire to wait for scientific confirmation, but the problem is that in the meantime more and more children are hurt, and the science is not being done because the powers-that-be are very reluctant to admit to a problem.

I forgot to mention one of the most important books on the subject – “Evidence of Harm” by David Kirby. If you have not already read it, I hope you will.

As you may be aware, Robert Kennedy Jr. wrote an article in Rolling Stone magazine regarding vaccines and autism (and yes I know that is not a scientific journal!) After his article was published, he reports that he received calls and emails and letters from around the world reporting the same stories – typically developing child receives vaccines, develops symptoms such as fever/arching back/screaming for hours/seizures – and then loses speech, social interaction, and other skills and is never the same again. He said something like, “These mothers know what happened.” Reports such as these come from times and places where/when these sorts of events were not being publicized, such as in the vaccine adverse events reporting system data from years ago.

It is terribly frustrating for parents to be told that the CDC and FDA believe in continuing business as usual because it has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that some children have been harmed by vaccines. Dr. Paul Offit insists that theoretically kids could receive 1,000 vaccines at once without harm. Yet formal peer-reviewed studies have found increased risks of febrile seizures after the MMR and after the DPT, and even higher risk of febrile seizures after the Proquad vaccine which combines the MMR and varicela. Hannah Poling received many vaccines at once and then became autistic. If we learn nothing else from her story, should we not stop giving several vaccines at once? Yet the CDC continues, for example, to recommend giving the MMR and varicela vax at the same time.

Pet owners and veterinarians have been reporting the same medical conditions in over-vaccinated pets as parents report in autistic children – e.g. allergies, IBD, rash, seizures… Please see www.ageofautism.com/2008/05/veterinarian-wi.html

How many years must we wait for the proper research to be done? How many children will be injured in the meantime? Are vaccines held to the “innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” standard? Isn't that burden of proof backwards? Shouldn't something such as thimerosal or aluminum be proven safe before injection into babies and children?

More & more vaccines are being added. Shouldn’t the cumulative effect of so many vaccines be studied? Why is there no study of health outcomes in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated kids? The ideal prospective study cannot be done, but a retrospective study could be done. And more studies of animals could be done – comparing development with & without typical vaccines.

You mention that “any virus can hypothetically lead to encephalopathy”. I grew up at a time when everyone came down with chicken pox, measles, mumps, whooping cough, rubela, and the flu, and I do not know anyone who suffered any lasting after-effects. Yes, there are a small number of cases of measles going to the brain. And rubella can cause birth defects. But autism in those days was very very rare. The idea that these viruses would be causing autism if we were not vaccinating against them is totally hypothetical and not supported by history.

There is something special about how vaccines can provoke and even overwhelm the immune system. Injecting multiple viruses and other ingredients directly into the bloodstream is not the same as natural exposure via the lungs, skin, or digestive system.

Regarding Jenny’s finances, I can’t believe you are even bringing that up. Neither you nor I know anything about her or Jim Carrey’s finances. I do know that everyone needs to earn a living. Even if her boyfriend has money, a girl needs her own income, and an autistic son’s treatments come at a price. Jenny M. is spending a great deal of time as a mother and as a volunteer on autism causes. Whether she and/or Jim are donating money to autism organizations is unknown to me, and irrelevant to the question of whether vaccines can cause autism.

Again, I thank you very much for engaging in this conversation.

Carrie,

Anything with a "watch" attached to it like "autism-watch.org" is part of the quackwatch family, and is essentially a Pharma front that attacks anything considered alternative.

Their main source of income besides Pharma funds is acting as paid expert witnesses in litigation against any who dare oppose the monolithic mainstream.

BTW, they consider Linus Pauling a quack. You know, the father of modern chemistry.

That one particular link is to Jim Laidler, who has a long history with many folks here.

Basically, he switched sides. His reasoning was, from his website

"After years of “supplements,” restrictive diets and “unconventional” therapies (too many to list), our boys were improved, but were a long way from being cured. We were forced to carry their special foods with us whenever we left the house, lest a molecule of gluten or casein catapult them back to where we had begun. We were nearly broke, despite both of us having well-paying jobs, and we were on the verge of exhaustion. The beginning of the end was when my wife, suspecting that some of the “supplements” we were giving our older son weren’t having any effect, stopped them all—without telling me. I saw no difference, even after two months (when she finally told me). We had been chasing our tails, increasing this and decreasing that in response to every change in his behavior—and all the while his ups and downs had just been random fluctuation. My eyes began to open.

The final step in my awakening came during a Disneyland vacation. My younger son was still on a gluten- and casein-free diet, which we both swore had been a significant factor in his improvement. We had lugged at least 40 pounds of special food on the plane with us. In an unwatched moment, he snatched a waffle and ate it. We watched with horror and awaited the dramatic deterioration of his condition that the “experts” told us would inevitably occur. The results were astounding—absolutely nothing happened. I began to suspect that I had been very foolish.

In the following months, we stopped every treatment except speech and occupational therapy for both boys. They did not deteriorate and, in fact, continued to improve at the same rate as before—or faster. Our bank balance improved, and the circles under our eyes started to fade. And quite frankly, I began to get mad at myself for being so gullible and for misleading other parents of autistic children."

So whay Dr. Laidler did was a "challenge test", something that parents are encouraged to do all the time in the writings from the late Dr. Rimland. Just because his kids did not regress after the challenge does not mean that the diet did not work - it may have worked really well and they did not need it any more. His experience with a challenge test does not mirror my experience, and most others', but to him, that is irrelevant, and we are all either lying or stupid.

That is the quackwatch golden rule - all people except MDs are gullible fools who need to be led back to the altar of the gods.

Josh, you don't need to apologize but thank you for doing so. Apology accepted. I can tell you feel badly about it and you are not a bad person for what you said. Ok? I also said things I regret. I think my pointing out my debt was not the best way to prove my intentions and I wouldn't repeat that, but it's done.

You actually wrote one of the statements I loved best "Do I know if a vaccine or booster dose brought on our conditions? No, I don't. Time-travel with thorough lab tests before and after the vaccinations aside, it's impossible to say, and even then nothing would be conclusive."

That is perfectly stated. We don't know anything for sure. And unfortunately, some things can't be proven. I am a person of science. I tend to stick with what I know and what has been proven by history, research and science. Having said that, I think your question to me is obvious. When you bring me your son, I would first make sure we are on the same page. I would make sure we both understand what are considered "typical" vaccine reactions (I am not comfortable with the word "normal") and what are not. We have to be in agreement on that. It's a whole discussion on its own. But because we are both adults who want what's best for your child and given your history, I see no problem in finding a solution that we can both agree on. So no, I wouldn't force the normal vaccination schedule on him. I understand your need for trying to do as much as you can to prevent harm to your child. That way, we can both sleep knowing we did everything we knew how to do. Does that answer your question?

Thomas, I completely forgot about Congenital Rubella. This is a very good point. Thanks for bringing it up.

Ginger , whoa, that's a lot to answer. For starters, I have seen your blog actually. Second, I don't know Jenny nor her son personally. I don't know about her mortgage and if this is the case with her, then I was mistaken. With that being said, you are right, she is not popular in the medical world. My "mommy instinct" tells me she's not as strapped for cash as she states. Her book was a bestseller. She makes more money in a year than most people do in a lifetime. Plus, she's with Jim Carrey. If she's struggling, how about him? He is now claiming to be the father Evan never had. Has he donated money to this cause? Just curious.

I will refer you to an article I read with regards to a few of the mistakes she has made. Since you asked. I found it last night. It is very detailed (more detailed than I can be right now) but I haven't found a mistake in it yet. Not to say they aren't there. Have you read it?

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=139

It is a bit snarky but I think you guys are used to that by now.

What else? Oh, I absolutely LOVE this idea.

"Do what some smarts docs have done. Hire the smartest autism mom you can find to be your research assistant/ASD patient liaison. We live and breathe this stuff, USE US!!!!"

Thank you. I am not quite there yet in my career but I think that is a fantastic idea. One thing we lack in this field is time. This is a great solution though. Thanks again.

As for "Vaccine induced encephalopathy".
Well, I'm being honest here, ok? No, they don't teach that term to us. So I'm not familiar with it... What they do teach, though, is that any virus can hypothetically lead to encephalopathy. Seeing as how some vaccines (MMR, Chicken pox) are technically viruses, there is a chance they can lead to encephalopathy. A much smaller chance than getting the disease itself, but a chance none-the-less.

Back to Jenny and her son (and your blog post). I think one great misconception in the medical world is the definition of "autism" and "autism-like". To medicine, autism is not a regressive disorder. Children are born with it and they are usually diagnosed by the age of 3. The children who regress into autism-like features are in another category...So that's where I was coming from and most probably where your friends' pediatrician was coming from. I've learned it's really a semantics thing and something I don't know much about but I intend to change that.

Oh and one more thing. Kim, about the post about behavioral optometry. Here are my thoughts. I think a very big quality to have as a doc is to know when you're out of your league. What he could do for you is to test her sight. That's what he knows. Doctors aren't all knowing. They are specialists in one area. It is good for patients to know that and it's also good for doctors to know that about themselves. And to me, the ones who know when they are out of their league (the ones who know when to refer) are amongst the best ones. Does that make sense?

To give you a different point of view. I know NOTHING about acupuncture. A lot of people in the medical field don't believe in it. I'm not sure I do either. But what I do know, is that my mother swears by it. I know for a FACT that it doesn't do her any harm. She swears it cured her breast cancer. I think it may have been the chemo/radiation but I would never take that away from her. If the only thing acupuncture does is lift her spirits, then that is more important than any other treatment. So...can I give advice on acupuncture to my patients? No and I never will. But I can encourage. I can refer. An acupuncturist is not my enemy. He's not competition. There are too many things we don't know about the human body. Who am I to question it? So...that's how I feel about behavioral optometry. I hope that answered your question.

Okay, now my turn. Here is something else I read. Kim, can you give me your thoughts on this?

http://www.autism-watch.org/about/bio2.shtml

"Wouldn't it be ironic if we could prevent autism with a vaccination?"

Carrie, this is already the case. MMR prevents rubella which, in turn, prevents congenital rubella syndrome (CRS). CRS can cause very severe autism.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to attempt a discussion here.

Carrie,

First, I apologize for the snarkiness in my response to you. While I stand behind everything I said earlier in my two posts, I do regret the method of my delivery in regards to your initial comment.

Here's why I replied the way I did:

You mentioned the shark tank. You should see how we are treated at many mainstream venues. We're regarded as Creation Scientists who want to outlaw the teachings of geology and evolution, morons, or crazies. Many of us have been threatened, lampooned repeatedly, and ridiculed by cowards who post under numerous aliases and pretend they're some kind of one-man army.

Then there's what we endure when we seek medical treatment for our children. For my son, I feel like I need a lawyer with us at doctor visits (though not so much now because we have a GREAT ped).

The refusal to vaccinate form is unethical and puts parents in an impossible situation, a catch-22 from hell. And of course there's always the pediatrician or practice who'll just throw you out on the street if you don't accept every last shot on their list.

I've posted before in the comment area about my situation and why I'm here and an advocate for the vaccine damaged.

I was born in 1981. Both my brother and cousin on my mother's side contracted severe asthma, food and environmental allergies, and for me, acute learning disabilities, toe-walking (I was in casts and had to wear painful orthopedic boots at night in attempt to stop this -- it didn't work and I still toe-walk to this very day), and speech problems. Aside from the speech problems, which developed at or around the age of 2, all of these things came on acutely for each of us. We were not born with any of these conditions and were all above average or exceptional in our developmental milestones.

Aside from all this, both my brother and I had extreme reactions to the DPT shot. My parents report I had 100 degree plus fever for three days, was constantly screaming in a new kind of wail they'd never heard before, and would not accept food of any kind. My brother responded the same with the exact same vaccine.

Do I know if a vaccine or booster dose brought on our conditions? No, I don't. Time-travel with thorough lab tests before and after the vaccinations aside, it's impossible to say, and even then nothing would be conclusive.

Yet I highly suspect vaccines are to blame.

I ask you this... if you were to see us in your future practice, how would you treat my 1.5 year old son? Would you listen to my history and our very real medical concerns? Or would you just throw him out for the good of "public health" and "herd immunity?"

Good news is my asthma is manageable, though the new HFA inhalers are pure shit and it's obscene how the drug companies manipulated the law to ban the old, tried-and-true units. Allergies are gone too, for the most part, thanks to a restrictive diet VERY SIMILAR to the GFCF diet that helps so many kids today.

We're lucky to have a wonderful pediatrician. We modified our "refusal to vaccinate" form and both parties were in agreement to the new form we created -- we refused to sign anything that stated we were medically endangering our child. When the nurse tried to make us sign a new form, which, by the way, was such a bad copy we could barely read what we were signing, we refused and told her we'd take it up with the doctor. Our pediatrician didn't even bring up the vaccine issue and the visit was actually a friendly, helpful experience.

In response gave her the highest rating on ratemds.com and recommend her highly to parents. I would travel two days distance, up or down the eastern seaboard, to see this doctor if she moved.

This is how powerful the bond between parents and a good pediatrician can be.

As good and caring as she is, I hope you can be better than her.

Maybe I was wrong about you. I'm more than willing to admit that. I hope you stick around and continue to comment. You'll find we're a lot less hateful than Internet "skeptics" once the initial anger phase dies off and we can get to know you.

Well done. Well explained. There's hope for you, Dr. C. You need to know what you're getting into - at 1 in 150 kids we'll be in your office. And we're far scarier in person. Trust me. Please do come back, even if only to lurk. We have many informative posts that will give you inside info your colleagues may not have. And one day, you might have a small kernel of knowledge that will tickle at the back of your mind as a Mom asks you a question about autism. That's a win win for you and Mom. By the way, I happened to have liked one of my peds very much - he was train in The Phillipines and had just enough Eastern training to temper his Western allopathic "hubris." And he was really handsome....

My current practice, while not great, does give my girls a DOUBLE APPOINTMENT automatically because of their autism. I think that's terrific. I know a friend's daughter was is interviewing with ped practices as a PA learned that some schedule a mere EIGHT minutes per appt.

Fight to take charge of your profession. It was noble. It meant something to be a doctor. Take it back from the insurance companies and the pharma companies, Carrie. It will have to come from each doc - the AAP is cooked. Dr. Tayloe's father lost the largest medical malpractice suit in N. Carolina a few decades ago. For VACCINE inury! And yet, Dr. Tayloe Jr., your new leader claimed to NEVER had reported and adverse reaction to a vaccine. You and I know there is no way a ped with two decades of experience has never seen an adverse reaction to a vaccine. But he didn't say that, he said he hadn't REPORTED one. That's frightening.

I'm rambling. I do that. Please do come back. Tear up your appl for forensic pathology. You've proven you have a backbone - that's a damn good start for a pediatrician. We hope you'll use it to stand up for our kids.

Yours in health,

Kim, Mom to 3 with autism and Managing Editor of this blog.

Dear Carrie,

So you want to be a doctor..good for you..you have studied hard and gone in debt. Don't worry, the drug company will help you with that debt...they will help you by seeing that you keep the vaccine schedule and their sales reps will help you understand how important pushing their newest vaccines on little babies is.

When you take the "first do no harm" oath...remember it. Remember it the day you vaccinate a child that never stops screaming until he seizures. Remember it when you are making your rounds in the hospital and the tearful Mom ask you if was because of the vaccines her precious child just had. Cross your fingers as you lie to her and say there was no connection..because your colleagues have assured you..there was no connection..and they are standing behind you...but a twinge in your heart and brain makes you remember Mom's like me who have already told you about vaccine damage. Remember me, when that once bright, gifted toddler is sent home in a wheel chair, now non-verbal, glassy eye, and whimpering instead of singing and talking. Remember me when you send that baby to the nearest children's hospital and his Mom looks at his medical records and notices that every time he was vaccinated, he got sick, until that fatal day he ended up worse than just sick, he nearly died. Remember me when she calls you and ask again "Is there a connection with his vaccines?" Because she will call you again, and she will point out and connect the dots for you. This is going to happen to you Carrie, mark my words and remember them, it will.

I watched my son go from bright, talking over 150 words, asking questions and pointing and labeling, knowing animals and the sounds they made, working 6-8 piece puzzles and so many other things....I watching him seizure a couple of days after his vaccines, and go on to loose everything. For his third birthday he should have gotten a tri-cycle, instead thanks to vaccine damage, he got a new wheel chair. Remember that...on the day you say "First do no harm."

Cheryl, Proud Mom of vaccine damaged multi- disabiled, autistic 15 year old son...

For Carrie. I can no longer hold my silence after your "reply"!

"I see him once in a blue moon." Not so true. The way it's set up - you are "supposed" to see our kids every two months for basically the first year and a half of life to perform "well baby checks" which mean vaccines.

"I am just there to help." If you truly have this attitude then you will zip your lip and LISTEN to us the parents who for the most part are recovering our children without any help from the traditional medical community because they REFUSED help or listen.

"But what I won't do, is talk about something I am not an expert on. I will not give you advice about your car troubles because of information I read online. I will refer to a trained mechanic instead." Again, if this is truly your attitude, then you should either train with a DAN! doc where you intend to practice and build a good working relationship with him or her. At the very least you should become somewhat familiar with DAN! protocol and the minute you meet any parent of a child with autism spectrum disorder, you should do the child "no harm" and refer that family to a local DAN! doc for the benefit of the child, the family, and our society.

"To me, you have all just proven one thing. I find it very very sad that doctors have indeed become the enemy in a world where the main issue is not who is right and who is wrong" This happened because the doctors all think they were right and the parents were wrong! They have a self entitled attitude and think they know more about anything than we do. We're simply sick of it. Oh... and we won't tolerate it any more.

"(because the cause is still a mystery)," Actually - no it's not. Again, the problem lies in the right or wrong situation that the peds created, and because they are so far up Big Pharma's proverbial ass and only get their info from drug reps and the AAP, they refuse to acknowledge that there is any way all these parents can be right and they might be wrong. They set it up that way!

"but is WHAT CAN BE DONE TO CURE AND PREVENT THIS HORRIBLE CONDITION? What can we do for the affected children?" We have been asking for help with regarding this very issue for a hell of a long time and they have FAILED to respond! Period! We know what cures it and they don't want to hear it because quite honestly they won't make bank off of it. And then they too might be stuck with over $200,000 in student loans to pay off because they're not making what they were promised a doctors salary would be. Did you ever think about the families who have forked out the same amount that you have for your precious education in order to recover their children because traditional insurance won't cover pretty much all of the treatment which leads to recovery or significant improvement? What about them? And what about the future cost to society? Ever think about that?

Finally, just an FYI... I have fired every pediatrician my kids have ever had. We now go to a wonderful FNP. She LISTENS! She is going to read "Changing the Course of Autism". I am ordering it for her. I told her before we employed her as a doc that I would not vaccinate ANY of my children any more. We go when we are sick or need a referral. My youngest is two and our FNP has never seen her other than when she's been sick. I've never been asked about vaccinating her. Ironically to you people - she is MUCH MUCh healthier than my children who were fully or partically vaccinated (two out of four with an ASD BTW)! So I say - stick that with your degree and give some more serious thought to what you are embarking on in your career!

And so now I am going to get ready for bed and go co-sleep with my two year old still nursing daughter in MY bed, cuz I'm sure you either don't approve of co-sleeping, or have never heard of it. Oh yeh... one more thing... before my younger son was diagnosed with ASD I was applying to midwifery college. We parents are smart and educated. Don't ever doubt us. You'll understand once you're a parent, because obviously you're not.

Angela Warner

And one more thing...

You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem. Our kids are getting better with our without your help. Sad but true.

Good luck, you're going to need it!

From DR. Carrie -

"And no, I haven't treated Jenny's son, why, do you know him personally?"

I think it will serve you well to drop your condescending tone at the door BEFORE you begin working and have a chance to unleash your med school "expertise" on innocent kids and their families. It is clear that you think you are God's gift to mankind and that we are ignorant fools. It is also fairly clear that you think we have no idea as to what we are talking about. Wrong on both counts.

IF you really want to do some good, try spending a month in training at a good DAN doc's clinic and see if you change your mind. Better still spend a year and follow 4-5 families progress and see what tests they run, what their kids undergo, what kind of out-of-pocket expenses they have, what testing they need to do that insurance does not cover. Don't sit over there and harp on something you only have a theroretical knowledge about.

And yes, feel free to not reply because we don't want to really hear from the likes of you again.

Carrie, you came into this site with a comment that was the equivalent of toting a fifth of gin to an AA meeting. Selling cigs in a chemo center for lung cancer patients. I hope that explains the sense of outrage and disbelief among our readers.

You're young. You're proud of your profession. I'm sure you've worked like a dog to get where you are - isn't it a shame so many parents no longer respect pediatricians? That's the crux of the problem - your profession has lost its sheen after bending over at the waist and grabbing its ankles for the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

My mother LOVED our pediatrician. He was like family. I fear that feeling is gone for medicine in general, and it is not coming back.

Don't blame us parents for our anger. Blame the AAP for allowing your noble profession to be highjacked.

Good luck in your career.

Kim, Managing Editor of Age of Autism

I can't say I'm surprised by your responses and this will be my last reply to you. You were all very quick to insult me and very quick to attack me personally. It is your decision and if it makes you feel better that you told a doctor or student or whomever "where to go", then so be it. And no, I haven't treated Jenny's son, why, do you know him personally?

I'll just leave you with this. I don't know of a single doctor (myself included) who doesn't vaccinate their children. If they really thought it was harmful, they wouldn't put their child in harms way (the same as you). I'm not against you. I support your efforts, I support your questions, I support your fight, I support your voice. I was just telling you that I'm on your side ("we're not the enemy" ) but you chose to rip me apart instead. Is this how you treat others? Is this the most efficient way to make any progress here? Telling me I'm in the wrong profession?

I never claimed it was the parent's fault (did I? If yes, please tell me where so that I may retract my statement!). I never claimed you should worship me, nor did I state I was better than any of you. I am not. I never meant to be condescending and I think you need to re-read your replies to me and then think real hard about who is being condescending. I also AGREE (please read my words!) that every individual is unique and deserves good care. Instead of insulting me, perhaps you should take a minute and listen to what I'm saying. Don't you think we would get much further as a united front? Mothers/father and physicians? Instead of condemning all that is medical and scientific? We are not sadistic creeps who get joy out of vaccinating and hurting children! You sure make it sound like we are.

You have every right to deny vaccinations,by the way, like Gardasil which one of you brought up. There is no shoving of vaccinations down anybody's throats. All I can do is shake my head.

And somebody said I lack empathy or sympathy. That could not be further from the truth. To repeat myself, autism is a child THIEF and a condition that deserves every bit the recognition it is getting AND MORE. My heart goes out to anybody touched by this disease and I do everything in my power to help any parent or child that I come into contact with. I will never tell you not to put your child on a diet. If it helps, wonderful. If it doesn't, let's try something else. You have every right to speak your mind, every right to question, every right to rally and try whatever means necessary to help your child. I will never say you are wrong to do so. Again, please READ MY WORDS.

And to answer whoever asked me "How stupid do you think we are?" Actually, quite the contrary. Not stupid. I will not insult you. You are a parent and you have the right to your thoughts and beliefs. I actually believe that parents make the best doctors. They know their child best. I have no doubt about it. You see your child 24 hours a day, I see him once in a blue moon. I am just there to help. But what I won't do, is talk about something I am not an expert on. I will not give you advice about your car troubles because of information I read online. I will refer to a trained mechanic instead.

To me, you have all just proven one thing. I find it very very sad that doctors have indeed become the enemy in a world where the main issue is not who is right and who is wrong (because the cause is still a mystery), but is WHAT CAN BE DONE TO CURE AND PREVENT THIS HORRIBLE CONDITION? What can we do for the affected children? That is the issue. Not my loans (sorry I brought it up, it was in poor taste), not my last name, not my credentials, not your insults, not Jenny who may be speaking from her heart but has perpetuated so much wrong information that it is scary (but for a price, you have to buy her book to get the whole picture, her research doesn't come for free).

Ultimately, this isn't important. Autism is. I was merely stating that I am not the enemy but you clearly have got it all under control by yourselves.

Carrie, I notice that no where in your comment do you express so much as a scintilla of empathy of we parents of kids with autism or sympathy for the children themselves. You'll make a fine doctor. May I suggest FORENSIC PATHOLOGY?

KIM

Hey Carrie,

Please post with your last name so parents can avoid you and your practice like the plague when you get your coveted degree. You sound like you're going to be the kind of snotty pediatrician who contributes to the sorry reputation of your field.

Your argument is insulting. It screams "Put aside your critical thinking and observational skills and worship The Expert!"

You've never been in the field, outside internship and residency (I'm assuming here, which you know what that makes both of us, right? Of course you do... after all, look at all the assumptions you made about Jenny McCarthy). Your arrogance and condescending tone makes me want to puke... one of the reasons why pediatricians are regarded as such a joke, and a dangerous one, in many circles.

Have you treated Jenny's son? Have you been around them firsthand, to provide a base for your blanket statements?

Your own words here... "Seven years of post-graduate training puts me on the same playing field as a mother who claims her child to have autism, which I'm not even sure I believe. How does one know her child was even correctly diagnosed? Why is it unfathomable that her child may have simply had developmental delays?" Oh, but you're not calling her a liar, no!

Yeah, Carrie, infants really need the Hep B shot at birth. All the vaccines that are shoved down kids' throats these days are absolutely necessary. Why not Gardasil at birth too, for boys as well? Aside from the Nazi herd mentality mandate you people use like a Papal bull, that makes zero sense. To quote Jim Carrey, "How stupid do you think we are?"

There is no defending the "Disease" question? "It is what it is," in your own words.

You know what? The question, "Sir, do you still beat your wife?" is what it is too.

And both questions are the same... a loaded question with a presupposed answer.

Here's why Jenny McCarthy is so popular and gets so much press... her story is identical to untold thousands of other parents out there. She stands up to arrogant asshole doctor types like you. I guess that's why you feel so "appalled" by her.

Anyway, here's a big thanks to being a case in point to my post below.

Oh, and whining about how deep in debt you are and how hard you've worked and what an "expert" you're training to be isn't going to score you any points around here.

You're below contempt, Carrie.

Carrie,
You claim you "are not the enemy." I beg to differ. Personally, you may have your heart in the right place, but as you attack someone like Jenny, you betray your complete lack of understanding of the problem. The institutions that you defend are in a episode of complete moral breakdown. We see an explosion in autism cases; they say "we're doing a better job diagnosing." We see massive failures in vaccine safety management; they say "anyone who dares to question a vaccine program should be kicked out of polite society." We see children being helped by simple interventions like restrictive diets; they say "those crazy parents who follow those diets are putting their children's health at risk."

Make no mistake, THIS IS NOT THE PARENT'S DOING. We were all the dutiful conscientious parents, the model pediatric patients, when all this started. IT IS A MASSIVE FAILURE OF MEDICAL SELF-GOVERNANCE that is the cause of this problem. You don't like how Jenny McCarthy argues? Well get over it. Your side of the debate plays dirty, ugly ball, with character assassinations and propaganda and lies cloaked in statistics as part of the regular mode of doing business. All funded (as are most evil things in medicine) by pharmaceutical money.

Carrie, what you need to come to grips with her is your own personal morality. As a prospective participant in system that is herding children and families to their ruin, we have come to a point where there are no longer "Good Germans." So what are you going to choose Carrie, to participate in a a system that harms children (and to complain that patients like Jenny aren't sufficiently compliant?) or to recognize the evil at this system's heart and act on that understanding

It's up to you.

A man came over to my house to clean up some smoke damage (I had a grease fire & we're all okay) yesterday and we started discussing the chemicals that might be used. I told him I had concerns because my son has autism. After breaking in the mercury subject, he said his son is a chiropractor, has 5 kids and would not let any get vaccinated because of the toxins in them. He said it's a hard decision when you think of the diseases they may get, but when he learned there were 1 in 166 with autism he thought the tables of risk had turned and the chance of getting a disease was less than getting autism!!!! By the way, this man doesn't have any personal connections with autism, just some really good common sense!

The Offits of the world aren't Science worshipers. There is nothing Scientific about them. There is no Scientific curiousity in them.

They are money worshippers parading about in the name of science and do to the name of science what suicide-bombers do to religion.

Julie - you hit the nail on the head. Fantastic.

Really what we want: Safety for our kids. All kids. Not just some... all.

Kids that are "collateral damage" is not acceptable.

Jenny said it perfectly on Larry King this past April "I would take measles anyday over a life time of autism, seizures."

Great article and great comeback for 'that' question.
However, if by "The “Vaccine Court” just conceded a little girl’s Autism was aggravated by too many vaccines at once.." you are referring to Hannah Poling; that is an incorrect statement. Hannah's case was not conceded by the Vaccine Court, it was conceded by the Health and Human Services branch of our governement before it could be tried in the Vaccine Court. We need to be specific about these things.

It amazes me at the immaturity of the vaccine-thugs. What a stupid question, don'tcha think?

My response?

"What chronic or neurological illness do you want YOUR child to get?"