Waitress2By Julie Obradovic

In the aftermath of the Green the Vaccines Rally, the inevitable criticism of the participants and their purpose swooped in with the force of the thunderstorm that struck DC that afternoon.

In the recent years of being an “Autism activist”, I have found it much easier to simply steer clear of this criticism. Message boards, Bloggers and editorials that paint me as a fear-mongering fool who uses her child as an experiment only put me in a bad mood.

Initially I was compelled to argue, fighting for my dignity and looking for compassion. What I realized is that is exhaustive work, and frankly, quite fruitless, especially when the bully you’re battling is anonymous.

And so it has been that I have chosen to ignore the negativity and focus on the task at hand:  finding a way to help families with Autism improve the health and well-being of their children, themselves, and their finances.

None-the-less, occasionally it becomes necessary to stand up and be heard. It’s as if the opposition got a new memo on how to belittle one of “us”, and frankly, it’s annoying.

For starters, as JB Handley addressed in his essay “Moving the Goal Posts”, we are now guilty of “changing the game”. Evidently we can’t make up our minds about what part of the vaccine or vaccines cause Autism.

Is it the mercury? Is it the aluminum? Is it both? Is it too many vaccines in combination? Somehow our inability to stick to one story makes us inauthentic.

A second point accuses us of not recognizing our children had a vaccine reaction until someone or something (i.e., the internet) told us so. This too makes us less than credible.

Then there’s the third point that champions there is no science to support what we believe; that it’s been more than proven vaccines don’t cause Autism…yadda..yadda..yadda.

To be sure, these are not unreasonable positions for a person to have given the media coverage and the spin that takes place on an almost daily basis. But all of these points have clear answers:  It’s the amount of vaccines, their timing, and/or their ingredients in a susceptible child; when you’re told vaccines have no side effects, you don’t recognize them until later; yes, we use the computer to do research; and as for the science, well, there’s not enough time or space here to even go there.

None of these arguments get to me though, and none of them are the point of this article.

What does get to me is the new question I first heard posed by Dr. Harvey Karp on Larry King Live!, and have since heard from several others. It’s like a good put-down heard on the play ground one afternoon that becomes everyone’s favorite retaliatory remark by the next morning.

One particular journalist at the rally even got Jim Carrey to take the bait.

When questioning the amount of vaccines and their ingredients now given to children in light of a lack of safety studies, a new response is:

“Well, what disease DO you want your child to get (that we have a vaccine for)?”

Do me a favor. When you catch your breath from its insulting nature (for Christ’s sake, who WANTS their child to get a disease?), calmly remember this question is a trap. It’s meant to be inflammatory and make people concerned about vaccine safety look irresponsible. It’s juvenile at best.

The answer is simple and two-fold: None of them. None of us wish any child develop a vaccine preventable disease.

But the more important answer is that we don’t want them to develop a neurodevelopment delay EITHER. It’s not one or the other. It’s both.

Unless and until we study vaccines for their long term consequences, particularly for their role in the development of chronic disease in susceptible populations, it is impossible to know the true risk-reward ratio.

Vaccines have been implicated in the development of speech delay and tics (among many other health outcomes), and are currently being studied for their role in the development of Multiple Sclerosis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, and other diseases.

It is not unreasonable for consumers of vaccines to demand the answer to the question:  In the name of the eradication of infectious disease, have we inadvertently swapped it for chronic disease. And if we have, what are the risks of developing both?

Hypothetically, if my child has a 1 in 5 million chance of ever getting Hepatitis B, but a 1 in 6 chance of developing a developmental delay because of the vaccine, I’ll take my chances with Hepatitis B. That is not the same as wanting the disease. That’s just plain logic.

So the next time someone asks this question, kindly respond, “Don’t you mean to ask me what disease am I least worried about my child contracting and why? Certainly you’re not implying I want my child to get a disease simply because I question the safety and unintended consequences of the mechanism that is supposed to be providing protection, are you?”

On a good note, resorting to this kind of ridiculous question reeks of desperation. And who can blame them?

Almost 20% of two year olds are now not following the recommended vaccine schedule.

The “Vaccine Court” just conceded a little girl’s Autism was aggravated by too many vaccines at once, and 5,000 more cases are in the pipeline.

Dr. Bernadine Healy acknowledged publicly (on the evening news, no less) that you can’t rule out a vaccine-autism connection.

Almost 9,000 people marched on Washington DC, and each one of them could have brought many more families with them. Thousands and thousands of parents are not giving up this fight, and if anything, are only growing stronger.

In Generation Rescue’s documentary “Autism Yesterday”, it was predicted things would only going to get uglier before they got better. I have to agree.

“What disease do I WANT my child to get?” you ask.

It doesn’t get much uglier than that.

Julie Obradovic is the mom of a recovered child. She is a member of NAA, a Rescue Angel, and a leader of the TACA Chicago Chapter.


Twyla Ramos

One more comment to Carrie -
I went to the "Science-Based Medicine" article "Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carrey, and 'Green Our Vaccines': Anti-vaccine, not 'pro-safe vaccine'" to which you posted a link.

I could not find any useful scientific information in this article -- the author speaks mainly in generalities and slurs.

His main point seems to be that although we say we are for safer vaccines and that we are not "anti-vaccine", he thinks the "green our vaccines" motto is just a crafty subterfuge and that we are actually against vaccines. While there are some people who are against all vaccines, most of us believe that there is tremendous value in some vaccines, but that there are also risks that are not being adequately monitored and studied. He ridiculed people who want "100% safety". Most of us understand that 100% is not possible. But the increasing levels of autism, learning disabilities, allergies, asthma, and auto-immune disorders are not acceptable trade-offs for what were once common childhood diseases. Yes, we need to vaccinate for polio -- but HepB for all babies at birth? That's crazy!

What does this writer, Dr. David Gorski - aka "Orac" -- think is parents' motivation for (according to him) pretending to be for safer vaccines but actually being anti-vaccine? What could be our ulterior motive? What do parents get out of not vaccinating their babies, or vaccinating at a slower rate and not giving so many -- do we receive power, fame, fortune, some kind of thrill? He makes it sound like there is some hidden evil greedy motivation behind the "Green our Vaccines" movement. This is ridiculous.

He says that nobody is arguing against safer vaccines. This is not true. For example, someone is arguing for continuing to put thimerosal in flu shots instead of changing to individually packaged thimerosal-free flu shots. Someone is arguing in favor of continuing to export vaccines containing thimerosal. Otherwise, these practices would have changed.

Regarding "moving the goal posts", see J.B. Handley's excellent article at www.ageofautism.com/2008/06/goalposts.html. So many parents have seen their kids have adverse reactions to vaccines and then regress into autism. The 4900 parents filing claims against the fund that reimburses for vaccine injuries, and the thousands of parents who recently marched on Washington D.C., are just the tip of the iceburg. What parents have witnessed is evidence which should be investigated -- even Dr. Bernadine Healy, former head of the NIH stated this. But this evidence is cavalierly and summarily dismissed because, we are told, "the plural of anectdotes is not evidence" and "parents don't understand science". Yet, non-scientist parents are expected to state the exact mechanism by which vaccines can cause autism. Parents say, "I don't understand this, but this is what I witnessed," and people such as Orac think that their testimony is irrelevant unless they can state with certainty the exact science, involving biochemistry, neurology, toxicology, immunology...

I could go on & on, but I would just be repeating what I have said many times before in prior posts, and everyone would get very very bored. So I will just end with some links to further information. Dr. Gorski cavalierly dismisses all research with results he doesn't like, but there is important research on our side, for example in the books I have recommended to you in prior posts.

www.ageofautism.com/2008/06/sick-hamsters-m.html - a study of hamsters with & without vaccines done by scientists in Peru who apparently are not afraid to do the kind of study that our American govt agencies refuse to do


www.putchildrenfirst.org - Here and in the book Evidence of Harm, see how initial research indicated a link between thimerosal and autism, but was then massaged to the point where it is now used to justify the continuing use of thimerosal.

Carrie, what do you think of Dr. Gorski's article??

Ginger Taylor


On the Laidler piece. I first read this around 2004 after Chandler was diagnosed. Don't know how old it is.

Autism treatment has done amazingly well, especially considering that we have gotten no help from main stream medicine.

Freud recommended cocaine to his patients, but we don't throw out psychiatry because it didn't have the whole picture right out of the gate.

But note that his kids did get better while he was treating them. It may have been that he got them as far as biomed was going to get them. It may be that they were poor responders.

We have some kids who improve only a little bit, and some that improve dramatically. Some families try different things for months or years until they find the thing that works for their kid.

The field is evolving and we are learning as we go.

Wanna help us get it right?? ;)

On Dr. Laidler specifically, he wrote another piece on chelation that I responded to back in the day. I sent it to him and he said he would respond, but I never heard back from him:


In about 10 years we are going to be able to look at long term outcomes between people with autism whose parents did or did not implement biomedical treatment.


Carrie –
In your prior post, you said “So the discussion , however ridiculous, is over.” I am glad that you are still discussing. Maybe you don’t find the discussion so ridiculous after all. I hope that this discussion is actually “productive” for both sides. For you, you may be learning about some perspectives on autism that you were not very familiar with, and resources for further info.

For us, I hope this is a reminder that it is not in anyone’s best interest to launch an attack on an inquisitive newcomer. Sometimes I wonder, is our primary purpose to “preach to the choir” – to communicate with those who already agree with us? Isn’t it even more important to communicate with those who are not already in our camp? If we did not have autistic kids, we might simply be lulled by the CDC’s mantra, generally repeated ad nauseum without question by the media: “Vaccines are safe; illnesses are dangerous; vaccines don’t cause autism; this is all proven beyond a doubt; parents don’t understand science…”

One never knows who one is communicating with on the internet – could be a deeply malevolent person, or could be a thoughtful person who is sincerely looking for answers. In either case, it seems worthwhile to simply express our views as articulately as we can, and if we don’t convince a particular poster, we may convince some later reader.

Regarding your last post, Carrie, you said, “We don't know anything for sure. And unfortunately, some things can't be proven. I am a person of science. I tend to stick with what I know and what has been proven by history, research and science.” We hear over and over again that vaccines have not been proven harmful. In some cases, the vaccine and the adverse effect are not clearly linked, but in other cases the link is clear. I understand the desire to wait for scientific confirmation, but the problem is that in the meantime more and more children are hurt, and the science is not being done because the powers-that-be are very reluctant to admit to a problem.

I forgot to mention one of the most important books on the subject – “Evidence of Harm” by David Kirby. If you have not already read it, I hope you will.

As you may be aware, Robert Kennedy Jr. wrote an article in Rolling Stone magazine regarding vaccines and autism (and yes I know that is not a scientific journal!) After his article was published, he reports that he received calls and emails and letters from around the world reporting the same stories – typically developing child receives vaccines, develops symptoms such as fever/arching back/screaming for hours/seizures – and then loses speech, social interaction, and other skills and is never the same again. He said something like, “These mothers know what happened.” Reports such as these come from times and places where/when these sorts of events were not being publicized, such as in the vaccine adverse events reporting system data from years ago.

It is terribly frustrating for parents to be told that the CDC and FDA believe in continuing business as usual because it has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that some children have been harmed by vaccines. Dr. Paul Offit insists that theoretically kids could receive 1,000 vaccines at once without harm. Yet formal peer-reviewed studies have found increased risks of febrile seizures after the MMR and after the DPT, and even higher risk of febrile seizures after the Proquad vaccine which combines the MMR and varicela. Hannah Poling received many vaccines at once and then became autistic. If we learn nothing else from her story, should we not stop giving several vaccines at once? Yet the CDC continues, for example, to recommend giving the MMR and varicela vax at the same time.

Pet owners and veterinarians have been reporting the same medical conditions in over-vaccinated pets as parents report in autistic children – e.g. allergies, IBD, rash, seizures… Please see www.ageofautism.com/2008/05/veterinarian-wi.html

How many years must we wait for the proper research to be done? How many children will be injured in the meantime? Are vaccines held to the “innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” standard? Isn't that burden of proof backwards? Shouldn't something such as thimerosal or aluminum be proven safe before injection into babies and children?

More & more vaccines are being added. Shouldn’t the cumulative effect of so many vaccines be studied? Why is there no study of health outcomes in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated kids? The ideal prospective study cannot be done, but a retrospective study could be done. And more studies of animals could be done – comparing development with & without typical vaccines.

You mention that “any virus can hypothetically lead to encephalopathy”. I grew up at a time when everyone came down with chicken pox, measles, mumps, whooping cough, rubela, and the flu, and I do not know anyone who suffered any lasting after-effects. Yes, there are a small number of cases of measles going to the brain. And rubella can cause birth defects. But autism in those days was very very rare. The idea that these viruses would be causing autism if we were not vaccinating against them is totally hypothetical and not supported by history.

There is something special about how vaccines can provoke and even overwhelm the immune system. Injecting multiple viruses and other ingredients directly into the bloodstream is not the same as natural exposure via the lungs, skin, or digestive system.

Regarding Jenny’s finances, I can’t believe you are even bringing that up. Neither you nor I know anything about her or Jim Carrey’s finances. I do know that everyone needs to earn a living. Even if her boyfriend has money, a girl needs her own income, and an autistic son’s treatments come at a price. Jenny M. is spending a great deal of time as a mother and as a volunteer on autism causes. Whether she and/or Jim are donating money to autism organizations is unknown to me, and irrelevant to the question of whether vaccines can cause autism.

Again, I thank you very much for engaging in this conversation.

enough already

Alright Carrie,

If you are going to be part of the team of professional sketpics, just go on and hang out on those sites with Orac. He needs a girlfriend anyways.


You say you have looked through the post on that site and it looks great. I will agree that some of the chemicals used in manufactuing the vaccines may not be in high concentrations in the final product, assuming their purification process is working well and is monitored often by an independant entity.

That is the only thing that guy has to say though. The rest is just opinion that all CDC studies are perfect, and mercury is safe, and anyone arguing that vaccines themselves might be dangerous is moving the goalposts. Is that what you think is agreeable also? So none of the toxicology research is compelling? None of the recent research on monkeys means anything? Hamsters, Nothing? Dr Healey's comments? No? Not a hint of curiosity as to why parents are fighting right now?

My question to you is: do you consider yourself a scientist or a practicioner of science? If you want to be a scientist, you had better have some level of curiosity. These guys who's blogs you are visiting are not going to help you out there, as they are more like worshippers of "SCIENCE", who never ever do any type of creative thinking. It's the reason they pillory someone like Linus Pauling, or any other real scientist who is actually in the business of making hypotheses, testing them, making new ones, and so on.



Anything with a "watch" attached to it like "autism-watch.org" is part of the quackwatch family, and is essentially a Pharma front that attacks anything considered alternative.

Their main source of income besides Pharma funds is acting as paid expert witnesses in litigation against any who dare oppose the monolithic mainstream.

BTW, they consider Linus Pauling a quack. You know, the father of modern chemistry.

That one particular link is to Jim Laidler, who has a long history with many folks here.

Basically, he switched sides. His reasoning was, from his website

"After years of “supplements,” restrictive diets and “unconventional” therapies (too many to list), our boys were improved, but were a long way from being cured. We were forced to carry their special foods with us whenever we left the house, lest a molecule of gluten or casein catapult them back to where we had begun. We were nearly broke, despite both of us having well-paying jobs, and we were on the verge of exhaustion. The beginning of the end was when my wife, suspecting that some of the “supplements” we were giving our older son weren’t having any effect, stopped them all—without telling me. I saw no difference, even after two months (when she finally told me). We had been chasing our tails, increasing this and decreasing that in response to every change in his behavior—and all the while his ups and downs had just been random fluctuation. My eyes began to open.

The final step in my awakening came during a Disneyland vacation. My younger son was still on a gluten- and casein-free diet, which we both swore had been a significant factor in his improvement. We had lugged at least 40 pounds of special food on the plane with us. In an unwatched moment, he snatched a waffle and ate it. We watched with horror and awaited the dramatic deterioration of his condition that the “experts” told us would inevitably occur. The results were astounding—absolutely nothing happened. I began to suspect that I had been very foolish.

In the following months, we stopped every treatment except speech and occupational therapy for both boys. They did not deteriorate and, in fact, continued to improve at the same rate as before—or faster. Our bank balance improved, and the circles under our eyes started to fade. And quite frankly, I began to get mad at myself for being so gullible and for misleading other parents of autistic children."

So whay Dr. Laidler did was a "challenge test", something that parents are encouraged to do all the time in the writings from the late Dr. Rimland. Just because his kids did not regress after the challenge does not mean that the diet did not work - it may have worked really well and they did not need it any more. His experience with a challenge test does not mirror my experience, and most others', but to him, that is irrelevant, and we are all either lying or stupid.

That is the quackwatch golden rule - all people except MDs are gullible fools who need to be led back to the altar of the gods.

finally some honesty

"Doctors aren't all knowing. They are specialists in one area. It is good for patients to know that and it's also good for doctors to know that about themselves. And to me, the ones who know when they are out of their league (the ones who know when to refer) are amongst the best ones."

Then they should not shoot off their mouths about autism to Big Media and their ilk since its obvious they know nothing about it. Not talking about you here, but the other all-knowing pediatricians out there and the medical *experts* who are clueless about the disorder.


Josh, you don't need to apologize but thank you for doing so. Apology accepted. I can tell you feel badly about it and you are not a bad person for what you said. Ok? I also said things I regret. I think my pointing out my debt was not the best way to prove my intentions and I wouldn't repeat that, but it's done.

You actually wrote one of the statements I loved best "Do I know if a vaccine or booster dose brought on our conditions? No, I don't. Time-travel with thorough lab tests before and after the vaccinations aside, it's impossible to say, and even then nothing would be conclusive."

That is perfectly stated. We don't know anything for sure. And unfortunately, some things can't be proven. I am a person of science. I tend to stick with what I know and what has been proven by history, research and science. Having said that, I think your question to me is obvious. When you bring me your son, I would first make sure we are on the same page. I would make sure we both understand what are considered "typical" vaccine reactions (I am not comfortable with the word "normal") and what are not. We have to be in agreement on that. It's a whole discussion on its own. But because we are both adults who want what's best for your child and given your history, I see no problem in finding a solution that we can both agree on. So no, I wouldn't force the normal vaccination schedule on him. I understand your need for trying to do as much as you can to prevent harm to your child. That way, we can both sleep knowing we did everything we knew how to do. Does that answer your question?

Thomas, I completely forgot about Congenital Rubella. This is a very good point. Thanks for bringing it up.

Ginger , whoa, that's a lot to answer. For starters, I have seen your blog actually. Second, I don't know Jenny nor her son personally. I don't know about her mortgage and if this is the case with her, then I was mistaken. With that being said, you are right, she is not popular in the medical world. My "mommy instinct" tells me she's not as strapped for cash as she states. Her book was a bestseller. She makes more money in a year than most people do in a lifetime. Plus, she's with Jim Carrey. If she's struggling, how about him? He is now claiming to be the father Evan never had. Has he donated money to this cause? Just curious.

I will refer you to an article I read with regards to a few of the mistakes she has made. Since you asked. I found it last night. It is very detailed (more detailed than I can be right now) but I haven't found a mistake in it yet. Not to say they aren't there. Have you read it?


It is a bit snarky but I think you guys are used to that by now.

What else? Oh, I absolutely LOVE this idea.

"Do what some smarts docs have done. Hire the smartest autism mom you can find to be your research assistant/ASD patient liaison. We live and breathe this stuff, USE US!!!!"

Thank you. I am not quite there yet in my career but I think that is a fantastic idea. One thing we lack in this field is time. This is a great solution though. Thanks again.

As for "Vaccine induced encephalopathy".
Well, I'm being honest here, ok? No, they don't teach that term to us. So I'm not familiar with it... What they do teach, though, is that any virus can hypothetically lead to encephalopathy. Seeing as how some vaccines (MMR, Chicken pox) are technically viruses, there is a chance they can lead to encephalopathy. A much smaller chance than getting the disease itself, but a chance none-the-less.

Back to Jenny and her son (and your blog post). I think one great misconception in the medical world is the definition of "autism" and "autism-like". To medicine, autism is not a regressive disorder. Children are born with it and they are usually diagnosed by the age of 3. The children who regress into autism-like features are in another category...So that's where I was coming from and most probably where your friends' pediatrician was coming from. I've learned it's really a semantics thing and something I don't know much about but I intend to change that.

Oh and one more thing. Kim, about the post about behavioral optometry. Here are my thoughts. I think a very big quality to have as a doc is to know when you're out of your league. What he could do for you is to test her sight. That's what he knows. Doctors aren't all knowing. They are specialists in one area. It is good for patients to know that and it's also good for doctors to know that about themselves. And to me, the ones who know when they are out of their league (the ones who know when to refer) are amongst the best ones. Does that make sense?

To give you a different point of view. I know NOTHING about acupuncture. A lot of people in the medical field don't believe in it. I'm not sure I do either. But what I do know, is that my mother swears by it. I know for a FACT that it doesn't do her any harm. She swears it cured her breast cancer. I think it may have been the chemo/radiation but I would never take that away from her. If the only thing acupuncture does is lift her spirits, then that is more important than any other treatment. So...can I give advice on acupuncture to my patients? No and I never will. But I can encourage. I can refer. An acupuncturist is not my enemy. He's not competition. There are too many things we don't know about the human body. Who am I to question it? So...that's how I feel about behavioral optometry. I hope that answered your question.

Okay, now my turn. Here is something else I read. Kim, can you give me your thoughts on this?


Is the MMR given to moms safe?

From Thomas -

"MMR prevents rubella which, in turn, prevents congenital rubella syndrome (CRS). CRS can cause very severe autism."

Or, if the MMR does not "take" properly, it can cause the mom to get excessive rubella titers prior to conception (say 3-4 years prior) which might be equivalent to "giving" a child CRS. How do you know that the MMR that was given to the mom was safe for her?

PS: Thomas, are you a pediatrician?


"Wouldn't it be ironic if we could prevent autism with a vaccination?"

Carrie, this is already the case. MMR prevents rubella which, in turn, prevents congenital rubella syndrome (CRS). CRS can cause very severe autism.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to attempt a discussion here.


An addendum: when I said I stood behind everything in my earlier comments, I meant the points and rebuttals I was raising, NOT my closing "below contempt" comment and nasty thing I said about parents avoiding you. Those were low and uncalled for and I'm sorry for having said them.

Josh Day


First, I apologize for the snarkiness in my response to you. While I stand behind everything I said earlier in my two posts, I do regret the method of my delivery in regards to your initial comment.

Here's why I replied the way I did:

You mentioned the shark tank. You should see how we are treated at many mainstream venues. We're regarded as Creation Scientists who want to outlaw the teachings of geology and evolution, morons, or crazies. Many of us have been threatened, lampooned repeatedly, and ridiculed by cowards who post under numerous aliases and pretend they're some kind of one-man army.

Then there's what we endure when we seek medical treatment for our children. For my son, I feel like I need a lawyer with us at doctor visits (though not so much now because we have a GREAT ped).

The refusal to vaccinate form is unethical and puts parents in an impossible situation, a catch-22 from hell. And of course there's always the pediatrician or practice who'll just throw you out on the street if you don't accept every last shot on their list.

I've posted before in the comment area about my situation and why I'm here and an advocate for the vaccine damaged.

I was born in 1981. Both my brother and cousin on my mother's side contracted severe asthma, food and environmental allergies, and for me, acute learning disabilities, toe-walking (I was in casts and had to wear painful orthopedic boots at night in attempt to stop this -- it didn't work and I still toe-walk to this very day), and speech problems. Aside from the speech problems, which developed at or around the age of 2, all of these things came on acutely for each of us. We were not born with any of these conditions and were all above average or exceptional in our developmental milestones.

Aside from all this, both my brother and I had extreme reactions to the DPT shot. My parents report I had 100 degree plus fever for three days, was constantly screaming in a new kind of wail they'd never heard before, and would not accept food of any kind. My brother responded the same with the exact same vaccine.

Do I know if a vaccine or booster dose brought on our conditions? No, I don't. Time-travel with thorough lab tests before and after the vaccinations aside, it's impossible to say, and even then nothing would be conclusive.

Yet I highly suspect vaccines are to blame.

I ask you this... if you were to see us in your future practice, how would you treat my 1.5 year old son? Would you listen to my history and our very real medical concerns? Or would you just throw him out for the good of "public health" and "herd immunity?"

Good news is my asthma is manageable, though the new HFA inhalers are pure shit and it's obscene how the drug companies manipulated the law to ban the old, tried-and-true units. Allergies are gone too, for the most part, thanks to a restrictive diet VERY SIMILAR to the GFCF diet that helps so many kids today.

We're lucky to have a wonderful pediatrician. We modified our "refusal to vaccinate" form and both parties were in agreement to the new form we created -- we refused to sign anything that stated we were medically endangering our child. When the nurse tried to make us sign a new form, which, by the way, was such a bad copy we could barely read what we were signing, we refused and told her we'd take it up with the doctor. Our pediatrician didn't even bring up the vaccine issue and the visit was actually a friendly, helpful experience.

In response gave her the highest rating on ratemds.com and recommend her highly to parents. I would travel two days distance, up or down the eastern seaboard, to see this doctor if she moved.

This is how powerful the bond between parents and a good pediatrician can be.

As good and caring as she is, I hope you can be better than her.

Maybe I was wrong about you. I'm more than willing to admit that. I hope you stick around and continue to comment. You'll find we're a lot less hateful than Internet "skeptics" once the initial anger phase dies off and we can get to know you.

Kim to Dr. Carrie again

Carrie, did you read our post on behavioral optometry and my intro? It's a classic example of how traditional medicine often fails our kids, even when the doc is a sweetie. I loved that ped opthalmologist. He's fantastic. Holistic. Bakes his own bread. Drives a Prius. Came into the waiting room to observe Bella playing to watch her eyes. He had her best interests at heart. And yet, since he couldn't operate and her SIGHT is fine, he had to send us away with the "come back in 12 months" that we get from so many docs. And he did say he did not "believe" in behavioral optometry. And yet, it is working for my child. Thanks for reading this. Good luck in your studies. KS

To Dr. Carrie

Well done. Well explained. There's hope for you, Dr. C. You need to know what you're getting into - at 1 in 150 kids we'll be in your office. And we're far scarier in person. Trust me. Please do come back, even if only to lurk. We have many informative posts that will give you inside info your colleagues may not have. And one day, you might have a small kernel of knowledge that will tickle at the back of your mind as a Mom asks you a question about autism. That's a win win for you and Mom. By the way, I happened to have liked one of my peds very much - he was train in The Phillipines and had just enough Eastern training to temper his Western allopathic "hubris." And he was really handsome....

My current practice, while not great, does give my girls a DOUBLE APPOINTMENT automatically because of their autism. I think that's terrific. I know a friend's daughter was is interviewing with ped practices as a PA learned that some schedule a mere EIGHT minutes per appt.

Fight to take charge of your profession. It was noble. It meant something to be a doctor. Take it back from the insurance companies and the pharma companies, Carrie. It will have to come from each doc - the AAP is cooked. Dr. Tayloe's father lost the largest medical malpractice suit in N. Carolina a few decades ago. For VACCINE inury! And yet, Dr. Tayloe Jr., your new leader claimed to NEVER had reported and adverse reaction to a vaccine. You and I know there is no way a ped with two decades of experience has never seen an adverse reaction to a vaccine. But he didn't say that, he said he hadn't REPORTED one. That's frightening.

I'm rambling. I do that. Please do come back. Tear up your appl for forensic pathology. You've proven you have a backbone - that's a damn good start for a pediatrician. We hope you'll use it to stand up for our kids.

Yours in health,

Kim, Mom to 3 with autism and Managing Editor of this blog.

White flag Carrie

Ok, I said it was going to be my last post but I got sucked in one last time. There are a few things to which I feel I have to reply. I'm going to formally apologize for taking time and attention away from your productive previous posts and making quite a few of you feel as though bringing me down was more worth your time than getting somewhere. For those of you who were decent, thank you. I will do what you suggested. I am actually glad that I came upon your site. I think hearing different points of view is important for someone like me and I will most definitely continue to educate myself when it comes to this issue (and others).

Cheryl: your story breaks my heart. I'm sorry for you had to endure and I wish you the best of luck. I think you have great strength. By the way, I also happen to have disdain for the drug companies. I am one of those "don't take what they sell" type of people. I don't eat their lunches. I don't take their pens. I don't listen to what they have to say. I don't think they are in it for the right reasons.

Jack: Good for you for being smarter than doctors. I really don't know what to say other than that. I think you were right to feel frustrated when your request was made into a production. I would have been upset too where it me.

Somehow you all got this impression that I am a power seeking child-hurting son of a gun. It couldn't be further from the truth. Perhaps 20 years from now, when I turn into the doctors you have all had the displeasure of interacting with, I will deserve your comments. For now, I don't deserve it but it doesn't matter. You have a right to be angry. You've been through a lot. Blame the docs. Blame the system. Blame me.

But you may all be right. Perhaps Jenny Mcarthy has only good intentions at heart. I thought it strange that she sold her book and didn't give profit to this cause. I also thought it strange that she gave wrong information on many occasions (that even I, a stupid medical student caught) and nobody said a word. But I do agree that we are in a world where a real every day mom can't get air time but someone like Jenny can. It stinks. It sucks. So if that's what it takes for you guys to get airtime, then Jenny it is.

Angela Warner: I wasn't being literal when I wrote "once in a blue moon" and some of the answers you gave me were taking my quotes out of context. I do intend to shut up and sit down after this though, so you should be happy. And yes, for the record, (another one), I am a mother. Sorry to disappoint. By the way, I am familiar with DAN docs and see no problem referring my patients to them. I think resources such as those are crucial. The same way I have no problem administering an individually tailored vaccination schedule. The same way the clinic I am proud to be associated with makes it a point not to obtain thimerosal containing vaccines. You could argue that I don't know for SURE they don't contain it, and you could be right. I don't disapprove of co-sleeping, but again , you didn't care to asked, you only assumed.

A few of you cared to tell me your stories, cared to keep it civil, cared to give me advice (which I appreciate and will most certainly take). For the record, I'm not a pharmaceutical company fan. I despise the way our society has become one where parents have to deal with insane costs and insurance companies , something they hardly need on top of having to deal with an ill child. I don't compare my debt to yours. I was honestly (honest) just trying to say I'm not evil. I went into this for the cause. To help. Not because of a salary. Not because of glory or pride (because, well, you've proven there is none), not for anything other than to help.

Do I listen to parents when I am faced with them? I try my best. I don't discount what they say. I don't get joy out of seeing sick children. I don't do jumping jacks if I see a child seize and I don't EVER tell parents they are crazy. I dont' ever imply they are at fault when their child is sick. I don't ever intend to hurt them. I never once implied you guys were "wrong" to think the way you do, so please, enough with the "we're right, you're wrong, you're blind" stuff.

Oh and a few of you brought up the oath. Like you're throwing it in my face. "Remember your oath, remember it". I think being a good person makes me remember the oath. I think that waking up every day and realizing that having a sick child is the worst feeling in the world makes me not want to ADD to that. I don't need to remember the oath. I don't like to do harm. I don't try to do harm. I never will. It is the way *I* was brought up by my parents , who yes, once upon a wonderful time, actually liked their pediatrician, a man who made me want to be one.

Kim: I agree that it is sad that our society has become the way it has. THat nobody respects their pediatrician anymore, that in your mother's generation, things were different. I also fear that it is too late, but what can I do other than try to do my best.

So in conclusion: I went into the shark tank knowingly, so I only have myself to blame for your comments and assumptions. I don't have personal experience with autism the way you do, but I have come into contact with many children who have it. I am sure I will continue to come into contact with many more children in the future. Like Julie, I wouldn't wish Autism on my worst enemy either. So with this discussion I'm done and I hope you are too. Not because I'm egotistical, or any other reason you have conjured up. Just because this isn't productive. You guys have other things to worry about than a bright eyed bushy tailed med student saying "Why does it have to be parents against physicians? Can't we fight this thing together? Is Jenny Mcarthy really the best spokesperson? "

But now I know. You have all shown me why. So the discussion , however ridiculous, is over. So really, truly, from the bottom of the cold-stoned heart you believe I have, GOOD LUCK TO YOU with the future. Good luck with the fight. Thanks for sharing your stories. I hope this can all be behind us someday and autism will be a thing of the past.

Here's me officially waving my white flag (no undertone, honest).


Dear Carrie,

So you want to be a doctor..good for you..you have studied hard and gone in debt. Don't worry, the drug company will help you with that debt...they will help you by seeing that you keep the vaccine schedule and their sales reps will help you understand how important pushing their newest vaccines on little babies is.

When you take the "first do no harm" oath...remember it. Remember it the day you vaccinate a child that never stops screaming until he seizures. Remember it when you are making your rounds in the hospital and the tearful Mom ask you if was because of the vaccines her precious child just had. Cross your fingers as you lie to her and say there was no connection..because your colleagues have assured you..there was no connection..and they are standing behind you...but a twinge in your heart and brain makes you remember Mom's like me who have already told you about vaccine damage. Remember me, when that once bright, gifted toddler is sent home in a wheel chair, now non-verbal, glassy eye, and whimpering instead of singing and talking. Remember me when you send that baby to the nearest children's hospital and his Mom looks at his medical records and notices that every time he was vaccinated, he got sick, until that fatal day he ended up worse than just sick, he nearly died. Remember me when she calls you and ask again "Is there a connection with his vaccines?" Because she will call you again, and she will point out and connect the dots for you. This is going to happen to you Carrie, mark my words and remember them, it will.

I watched my son go from bright, talking over 150 words, asking questions and pointing and labeling, knowing animals and the sounds they made, working 6-8 piece puzzles and so many other things....I watching him seizure a couple of days after his vaccines, and go on to loose everything. For his third birthday he should have gotten a tri-cycle, instead thanks to vaccine damage, he got a new wheel chair. Remember that...on the day you say "First do no harm."

Cheryl, Proud Mom of vaccine damaged multi- disabiled, autistic 15 year old son...


Well, I'll tell you a story about how much faith I have in the ped.

In need of an antibiotic (unfortunately for real) I ask for one in a pill form I can crush up and give so I don't get the Red Dye #40 (a product Pediatrics itself say is bad for kids) laced version of the "the pink stuff."

I get some resistant but I assure the doc I can reliable grind it up and give it in apple sauce. A big show is made about how accomadating they are to my crazy request. And then a big delay. Math problems. They are even up front about this..."we're trying to do the calculation." I sigh and allow them to continue, even though I already know what the amount should be. I know how sensitive they are about their inteligence. And low and behold it comes back wrong. I fix it.

So, do docs have a monopoly on intelligence? I don't think so.

If you are $250,000 in debt and all you learned is to write a 'script for amoxicillin then I suggest you get a refund because I learned a lot more than that in high school apparently.

So, do I think I'm smarter than my doctor? Ah.....yes I do.

Angela Warner

For Carrie. I can no longer hold my silence after your "reply"!

"I see him once in a blue moon." Not so true. The way it's set up - you are "supposed" to see our kids every two months for basically the first year and a half of life to perform "well baby checks" which mean vaccines.

"I am just there to help." If you truly have this attitude then you will zip your lip and LISTEN to us the parents who for the most part are recovering our children without any help from the traditional medical community because they REFUSED help or listen.

"But what I won't do, is talk about something I am not an expert on. I will not give you advice about your car troubles because of information I read online. I will refer to a trained mechanic instead." Again, if this is truly your attitude, then you should either train with a DAN! doc where you intend to practice and build a good working relationship with him or her. At the very least you should become somewhat familiar with DAN! protocol and the minute you meet any parent of a child with autism spectrum disorder, you should do the child "no harm" and refer that family to a local DAN! doc for the benefit of the child, the family, and our society.

"To me, you have all just proven one thing. I find it very very sad that doctors have indeed become the enemy in a world where the main issue is not who is right and who is wrong" This happened because the doctors all think they were right and the parents were wrong! They have a self entitled attitude and think they know more about anything than we do. We're simply sick of it. Oh... and we won't tolerate it any more.

"(because the cause is still a mystery)," Actually - no it's not. Again, the problem lies in the right or wrong situation that the peds created, and because they are so far up Big Pharma's proverbial ass and only get their info from drug reps and the AAP, they refuse to acknowledge that there is any way all these parents can be right and they might be wrong. They set it up that way!

"but is WHAT CAN BE DONE TO CURE AND PREVENT THIS HORRIBLE CONDITION? What can we do for the affected children?" We have been asking for help with regarding this very issue for a hell of a long time and they have FAILED to respond! Period! We know what cures it and they don't want to hear it because quite honestly they won't make bank off of it. And then they too might be stuck with over $200,000 in student loans to pay off because they're not making what they were promised a doctors salary would be. Did you ever think about the families who have forked out the same amount that you have for your precious education in order to recover their children because traditional insurance won't cover pretty much all of the treatment which leads to recovery or significant improvement? What about them? And what about the future cost to society? Ever think about that?

Finally, just an FYI... I have fired every pediatrician my kids have ever had. We now go to a wonderful FNP. She LISTENS! She is going to read "Changing the Course of Autism". I am ordering it for her. I told her before we employed her as a doc that I would not vaccinate ANY of my children any more. We go when we are sick or need a referral. My youngest is two and our FNP has never seen her other than when she's been sick. I've never been asked about vaccinating her. Ironically to you people - she is MUCH MUCh healthier than my children who were fully or partically vaccinated (two out of four with an ASD BTW)! So I say - stick that with your degree and give some more serious thought to what you are embarking on in your career!

And so now I am going to get ready for bed and go co-sleep with my two year old still nursing daughter in MY bed, cuz I'm sure you either don't approve of co-sleeping, or have never heard of it. Oh yeh... one more thing... before my younger son was diagnosed with ASD I was applying to midwifery college. We parents are smart and educated. Don't ever doubt us. You'll understand once you're a parent, because obviously you're not.

Angela Warner


Dear Carrie,

I am wholeheartedly in favor of respectful discourse. But I hope you will re-read some of these comments and learn from them, realizing that these parents have so much reason for anger. You have unwittingly touched on quite a few raw nerves. Please, please do not be alienated. Set aside your own feelings of being under attack, and take the time to learn.

You asked why Jenny McCarthy has so much credibility. I would ask a different question: Why has the media ignored for years so many other highly intelligent parents who told the same kind of story? Why does the media give hardly any air time to scientists and doctors who have been witnessing and engaging in the biomedical treatment of children with autism? There is a whole new paradigm of autism involving the immune system, digestion, toxicology, and biochemistry. The motto could be, "No brain is an island."

It takes a celebrity to attract the media, but the issues Jenny M. is raising have been in the works for years at organizations such as the Autism Research Institute ("ARI"), Defeat Autism Now! ("DAN!"), Generation Rescue, and SafeMinds.

Jenny has become the spokesperson for the support group Talk About Curing Autism "TACA" because she speaks for so many other people (parents and professionals) who have first hand knowledge of the truths she is speaking.

Please take the time to read these books written by doctors:

"Changing The Course Of Autism - A Scientific Approach for Parents and Physicians" by Bryan Jepson, M.D.

"Children with Starving Brains: A Medical Treatment Guide" by Jaquelyn McCandless, M.D.

"Healing the New Childhood Epidemics – Autism, ADHD, Asthma, and Allergies" by Kenneth Bock, M.D. and Cameron Stauth

Please also read these books by mothers:

"Unraveling the Mystery of Autism and Pervasive Development Disorder" by Karyn Seroussi

"Enzymes for Autism and other Neurological Conditions" by Karen DeFelice

"Breaking the Vicious Cycle: Intestinal Health Through Diet" by Elaine Gottschall

In a nutshell, here is in brief the experience of so many parents of kids with autism:

- Baby/toddler has adverse reaction to vaccines (high fever, screaming, seizures…) and then regresses into autism. Parents are told, "Don’t confuse coincidence with causation."

- "Experts" tell parents, "Autism is a life-long condition. The only treatments are ABA, special ed, speech therapy. The apparent medical problems are actually psychological (i.e. constipation due to wanting to control the world) or coincidental. Don’t try any of that 'unproven' dietary stuff."

- Parent finds out about helpful treatments from other parents. For example, GFCF diet often results in improved behavior, increased speech, improved digestion. My son finally became toilet trained at the age of 11 after we started the GFCF diet and digestive enzymes – which were never recommended by any professionals we had encountered. Some parents report dramatic improvement with various biomedical treatments such as nutritional supplements, injected vitamin B-12, chelation. Instead of listening and studying these treatments, mainstream medicine simply says "the plural of anecdotes is not evidence". It is a catch-22 – they won’t believe it until it is published, but how can it be published if it is not being studied?

- Some kids actually recover from autism with biomedical treatments. Why aren’t these kids being studied by the CDC, FDA, AMA, NIEH? Why aren’t scientists beating paths to these kids doors? It should be easy enough to verify whether the child was autistic (through diagnostic reports, school/speech reports, home videos, etc.), and to verify whether the child is still autistic now. Instead, these parents are told, "Well, apparently your child was not REALLY autistic." These children, like Jenny McCarthy’s son, were diagnosed as autistic by professionals.

So, you see, many parents are receiving very little help from doctors, and more help from other parents. Only a small number of doctors – few and far between – are paying attention to the development of biomedical causes and treatments for autism.

You say, "doctors are educated individuals". Yes, but doctors do not learn about biomedical treatments in medical school. Doctors spend considerable time studying medications, but very little time studying nutrition, dietary intervention, nutritional supplements, or detoxification.

You say: "A good doctor will spread out your vaccination schedule for you, if that is your concern, if you are in the 'too many too fast' school of thought," and, "There is no shoving of vaccinations down anybody's throats." Yet,
- Many doctors will not allow patients to remain in their practice if they are not "vaccine compliant".
- Schools require vaccines, and some states do not allow "philosophical" exemptions.
- It did not even occur to many parents of autistic kids to question the vaccine schedule. We had total confidence in our doctors and federal agencies. Then we found to our amazement that our kids were being injected with mercury which had never been proven safe, and that the overall long-term combined effects of our vaccine schedule has never been proven safe. The amount of aluminum received in vaccines has not been proven safe. And, while some of the illnesses are very serious and common, others are not. My son received the Hepatitis B vaccine on the day he was born, containing thimerosal. He was not even at risk for Hep B. See my 11/14/2007 AoA article "MMR, Chicken Pox, Febrile Seizures, and Weighing the Potential Risks and Benefits of Vaccines"

You said, "nothing in the medical world can be 100% safe" and "It is a risk versus benefit scenario." We whole-heartedly agree that it is a risk-benefit analysis. Unfortunately, the risks and benefits are not being adequately weighed. Please read Mark Blaxill’s excellent articles about this topic on AoA starting 11/7/2007 "Congratulations! You’ve Been Named to a Blue Ribbon Panel.".

We are not just talking about one in a million adverse events, not even 1 in 10,000. We have rates of autism at least 1 in 150, and escalating rates of ADD, ADHD, severe allergies, and auto-immune disorders. Do we really know what we are doing to infants’ developing immune systems when we inject two dozen vaccines by the age of 2, and another dozen by kindergarten?

You say: "The focus should be on research. It is the only way answers can be found." We say that there needs to be much much more research done on the kinds of issues being raised by Jenny McCarthy.

Like you said, we truly want to know "WHAT CAN BE DONE TO CURE AND PREVENT THIS HORRIBLE CONDITION?" It appears that there is a tremendous amount of resistance to uncovering the truth about causes and treatments.

Thank you for posting. If you have read this far, thank you for reading! I wish you all the very best.



And one more thing...

You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem. Our kids are getting better with our without your help. Sad but true.

Good luck, you're going to need it!



Get over yourself.

Yes we are mighty pissed at peds

From DR. Carrie -

"And no, I haven't treated Jenny's son, why, do you know him personally?"

I think it will serve you well to drop your condescending tone at the door BEFORE you begin working and have a chance to unleash your med school "expertise" on innocent kids and their families. It is clear that you think you are God's gift to mankind and that we are ignorant fools. It is also fairly clear that you think we have no idea as to what we are talking about. Wrong on both counts.

IF you really want to do some good, try spending a month in training at a good DAN doc's clinic and see if you change your mind. Better still spend a year and follow 4-5 families progress and see what tests they run, what their kids undergo, what kind of out-of-pocket expenses they have, what testing they need to do that insurance does not cover. Don't sit over there and harp on something you only have a theroretical knowledge about.

And yes, feel free to not reply because we don't want to really hear from the likes of you again.


Carrie, you say:
"But what I won't do, is talk about something I am not an expert on. I will not give you advice about your car troubles because of information I read online. I will refer to a trained mechanic instead."

1 in a 100 kids means you need to be an expert the minute you go into practice. This means take the time to read the science that exists on autism beyond what the mainstream tells you to be the case. Thousands of parents have a point, you can't turn a blind eye to that. Call the doctors, Usman, Bradstreet, Buckley, Kartzinel, etc and see how they are recovering children. Find out what we are talking about instead of coming here to repeat what you've heard in med school. We need you to open your mind, not tell us more about what mainstream thinks we know their points all too well.

Open your mind and heart, we are RIGHT, and the proof is there if you want to find it.

For Dr. Carrie

Carrie, you came into this site with a comment that was the equivalent of toting a fifth of gin to an AA meeting. Selling cigs in a chemo center for lung cancer patients. I hope that explains the sense of outrage and disbelief among our readers.

You're young. You're proud of your profession. I'm sure you've worked like a dog to get where you are - isn't it a shame so many parents no longer respect pediatricians? That's the crux of the problem - your profession has lost its sheen after bending over at the waist and grabbing its ankles for the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

My mother LOVED our pediatrician. He was like family. I fear that feeling is gone for medicine in general, and it is not coming back.

Don't blame us parents for our anger. Blame the AAP for allowing your noble profession to be highjacked.

Good luck in your career.

Kim, Managing Editor of Age of Autism

Kelli Ann Davis

“But what I won't do, is talk about something I am not an expert on. I will not give you advice about your car troubles because of information I read online. I will refer to a trained mechanic instead.”


You still don’t get it.

You do not, I repeat *do not* need a degree to understand a basic principal of science – mercury is dangerous and should never be injected into a child – period.

Now, unless you’re aware of a study that shows the safety of injecting mercury (at any level) into a child I will leave you with this one last thought: You’ve been advised of the danger.

Any child in your practice that you knowingly inject with mercury is on *YOU* -- you bear that responsibility solely – not the manufacturer, not the AAP, not the unknowing parent – YOU.

I pray to God you’re able to live with that cuz I know I never could.

Kelli Ann Davis


I can't say I'm surprised by your responses and this will be my last reply to you. You were all very quick to insult me and very quick to attack me personally. It is your decision and if it makes you feel better that you told a doctor or student or whomever "where to go", then so be it. And no, I haven't treated Jenny's son, why, do you know him personally?

I'll just leave you with this. I don't know of a single doctor (myself included) who doesn't vaccinate their children. If they really thought it was harmful, they wouldn't put their child in harms way (the same as you). I'm not against you. I support your efforts, I support your questions, I support your fight, I support your voice. I was just telling you that I'm on your side ("we're not the enemy" ) but you chose to rip me apart instead. Is this how you treat others? Is this the most efficient way to make any progress here? Telling me I'm in the wrong profession?

I never claimed it was the parent's fault (did I? If yes, please tell me where so that I may retract my statement!). I never claimed you should worship me, nor did I state I was better than any of you. I am not. I never meant to be condescending and I think you need to re-read your replies to me and then think real hard about who is being condescending. I also AGREE (please read my words!) that every individual is unique and deserves good care. Instead of insulting me, perhaps you should take a minute and listen to what I'm saying. Don't you think we would get much further as a united front? Mothers/father and physicians? Instead of condemning all that is medical and scientific? We are not sadistic creeps who get joy out of vaccinating and hurting children! You sure make it sound like we are.

You have every right to deny vaccinations,by the way, like Gardasil which one of you brought up. There is no shoving of vaccinations down anybody's throats. All I can do is shake my head.

And somebody said I lack empathy or sympathy. That could not be further from the truth. To repeat myself, autism is a child THIEF and a condition that deserves every bit the recognition it is getting AND MORE. My heart goes out to anybody touched by this disease and I do everything in my power to help any parent or child that I come into contact with. I will never tell you not to put your child on a diet. If it helps, wonderful. If it doesn't, let's try something else. You have every right to speak your mind, every right to question, every right to rally and try whatever means necessary to help your child. I will never say you are wrong to do so. Again, please READ MY WORDS.

And to answer whoever asked me "How stupid do you think we are?" Actually, quite the contrary. Not stupid. I will not insult you. You are a parent and you have the right to your thoughts and beliefs. I actually believe that parents make the best doctors. They know their child best. I have no doubt about it. You see your child 24 hours a day, I see him once in a blue moon. I am just there to help. But what I won't do, is talk about something I am not an expert on. I will not give you advice about your car troubles because of information I read online. I will refer to a trained mechanic instead.

To me, you have all just proven one thing. I find it very very sad that doctors have indeed become the enemy in a world where the main issue is not who is right and who is wrong (because the cause is still a mystery), but is WHAT CAN BE DONE TO CURE AND PREVENT THIS HORRIBLE CONDITION? What can we do for the affected children? That is the issue. Not my loans (sorry I brought it up, it was in poor taste), not my last name, not my credentials, not your insults, not Jenny who may be speaking from her heart but has perpetuated so much wrong information that it is scary (but for a price, you have to buy her book to get the whole picture, her research doesn't come for free).

Ultimately, this isn't important. Autism is. I was merely stating that I am not the enemy but you clearly have got it all under control by yourselves.

Julie Obradovic


Thank you for taking the time to respond and give your side of the argument. It is important for us to read that, and I'm glad you posted it.

I for one have never thought that doctors like yourself were purposely and knowingly trying to hurt my child. It's easy to understand how defensive you would be, considering what you have tried to accomplish, and yes, how hard you have worked.

But I do feel now, and I'm guessing many other parents do as well, that you can no longer stick your head in the sand and jsut trust that the AAP and CDC and all of the other organizations are telling you the truth.

I ask that you actually read the studies used to exonerate vaccines and their ingredients and question their methods (especially since the CDC just declared them "useless")

I ask that you demand the CDC does a study on the total health outcomes of the vaccinated versus the never vaccinated immediately. And dont' tell us you can't find them. They are right here in Chicago at Home First....30,000 of them.

I ask that you write letters to the AAP demanding that they stop their campaign of intimidation and coercion in order to get parents to cooperate with recommended vaccine schedules.

I ask that you welcome studies done on the safe amounts of mercury and other vaccine ingredients, not from a population study, but from a biological one.

I ask that you make it a priority to educate yourself on the scientific evidence-based medicine parents are using to treat their autistic children's medical needs. Attend a conference. Read one of the several books now available. Do it now.

I ask all of this and more.

Did Jenny McCarthy get angry on LKL? Oh, yes. And did she keep interrupting?Absolutely. But do I believe that was the reason for Dr. Karp's insulting question? Maybe. I'm sure he felt frustrated to.

None the less, it was rude and insensitive and frankly, ridiculous. And when other journalists, such as Arthur Allen, started reiterating it, it needed to be addressed.

We may not be "enemies" as you say, but your profession abandoned me and my child. I did what you said. I took my child to each and every well visit. I listened when you told me nothing was wrong, that all kids don't crawl, that some kids don't talk til age 4, and so forth.

Most important, I trusted you. I trusted you not to harm my child. She was born a year AFTER the AAP stated a preference for thimerosal free shots, and she got her last one 2 years even after that! How can I not feel betrayed and infuriated?

Our anger and intolerance comes from doing as we were told, trusting our children with you, and then having our lives and our children's future ripped out from under us without so much as "I'm sorry".

To add insult to injury, we are told our children's Autism in OUR fault...my husband was too old. My child watched too much TV. It's maddening.

All the while, our children remain extraordinarily ill. We're waiting months and months to find educated physicians to help. We're losing all of our finances and in many instances our marriages as our speechless children suffer silently in front of us.

This situation is pathetic, immoral, and shameful. I wouldn't wish Autism on my worst enemy.

As far as the antifreeze goes, I do agree with you that we must be accurate in our arguments, and if there is not antifreeze, it should be retracted.

None-the-less, that is a small detail in the much, much bigger whole: Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of children are suffering. They need help NOW.

Carrie, you do have the opportunity to help...to be the kind of doctor you probably set out to be.

But you're going to have to dig deep, challenge the status quo, and really think about what is more important...treating the public at large, or treating the individual child. Unfortunately right now, it doesn't seem our medical profession knows how to do both.

Thanks for your time.



Carrie, I notice that no where in your comment do you express so much as a scintilla of empathy of we parents of kids with autism or sympathy for the children themselves. You'll make a fine doctor. May I suggest FORENSIC PATHOLOGY?


Too bad

From Carrie -

"I am 250k in debt which is average cost for medical school nowadays."

I am very sorry that you had to spend so much money, and then at the end of it not understand *THIS* basic fact - that every individual is unique and needs to be treated and respected for his/ her individual worth.

That you cannot assemblyline individuals and shoot them up with 36 vaccines in a short period of time.

That it is extremely irresponsible for your breed of "doctors" to undertake an experiment of this magnitude on the human race without conducting any study at all as to the safety and efficacy of the vaccine schedule.

That you continue to perpetrate the harm without pausing to see cause and effect, and continue to be blind to the catastrophic results of your actions.

To me, you are not doctors, you are evil perpetrators of disease and injury on masses of innocent children everywhere, with little to no regard for their families, and to the loss of everything the parents hold dear to their heart.

Sorry to say this, but your brand of people now sicken me to the core of my being.

Josh Day

Hey Carrie,

Please post with your last name so parents can avoid you and your practice like the plague when you get your coveted degree. You sound like you're going to be the kind of snotty pediatrician who contributes to the sorry reputation of your field.

Your argument is insulting. It screams "Put aside your critical thinking and observational skills and worship The Expert!"

You've never been in the field, outside internship and residency (I'm assuming here, which you know what that makes both of us, right? Of course you do... after all, look at all the assumptions you made about Jenny McCarthy). Your arrogance and condescending tone makes me want to puke... one of the reasons why pediatricians are regarded as such a joke, and a dangerous one, in many circles.

Have you treated Jenny's son? Have you been around them firsthand, to provide a base for your blanket statements?

Your own words here... "Seven years of post-graduate training puts me on the same playing field as a mother who claims her child to have autism, which I'm not even sure I believe. How does one know her child was even correctly diagnosed? Why is it unfathomable that her child may have simply had developmental delays?" Oh, but you're not calling her a liar, no!

Yeah, Carrie, infants really need the Hep B shot at birth. All the vaccines that are shoved down kids' throats these days are absolutely necessary. Why not Gardasil at birth too, for boys as well? Aside from the Nazi herd mentality mandate you people use like a Papal bull, that makes zero sense. To quote Jim Carrey, "How stupid do you think we are?"

There is no defending the "Disease" question? "It is what it is," in your own words.

You know what? The question, "Sir, do you still beat your wife?" is what it is too.

And both questions are the same... a loaded question with a presupposed answer.

Here's why Jenny McCarthy is so popular and gets so much press... her story is identical to untold thousands of other parents out there. She stands up to arrogant asshole doctor types like you. I guess that's why you feel so "appalled" by her.

Anyway, here's a big thanks to being a case in point to my post below.

Oh, and whining about how deep in debt you are and how hard you've worked and what an "expert" you're training to be isn't going to score you any points around here.

You're below contempt, Carrie.

Kelli Ann Davis

"We cannot be held liable for not knowing, it is the way the world works."


Excuse me for being so blunt but the days of docs *sticking their heads in the sand* and claiming ignorance are *OVER*!!!

As a soon-to-be doc who takes immense pride on all your medical training, let me ask you one very simple question:

How can you possibly justify injecting *mercury* into a baby given the fact that it's a *KNOWN NEUROTOXIN* whose safety has never been demonstrated at any level?

Rather than trying to *educate us* on the benefits of vaccines, maybe you should be expending that energy talking to your *leadership* (AAP) and convince them to advocate for safer vaccines.

By the way, this is the way the world works:

The law for the regulation of drugs including vaccines and other biological preparations classified as drugs, explicitly require that all drugs (as the term is defined in 21 U.S.C. Section 321(g)(1)13, including any component used in a drug [21 U.S.C. Section 321(g)(1)(D) must be SAFE (based on the definition of SAFE in 21 U.S.C. Section 321(u)14) and effective in human and animals.

Personally, I can’t recall ONE STUDY where mercury, a KNOWN NEUROTOXIN is determined to be SAFE.

The burden is not for me to prove that a neurotoxin injected into individuals is UNSAFE (although I personally think it’s a no brainer)….Rather the burden in on the “person” who declares its SAFETY….and in this case, that would rest with the manufacturer who places it in their product.

Think about that the next time you feel you're somehow *immune* to the consequences of knowingly injecting a neurotoxin into the bloodstream of your patients.

In conclusion, my advice to you is simple....change professions. The days of making a mint on *baby well visits* are over. Why? Because Americans are a smart bunch of individuals who can research the issue, read the science and make informed decisions on their own -- even if they don't have a bunch of letters behind their names.

I know, total shocker, isn't it?

Kelli Ann Davis, AM (Autism Mom)


You claim you "are not the enemy." I beg to differ. Personally, you may have your heart in the right place, but as you attack someone like Jenny, you betray your complete lack of understanding of the problem. The institutions that you defend are in a episode of complete moral breakdown. We see an explosion in autism cases; they say "we're doing a better job diagnosing." We see massive failures in vaccine safety management; they say "anyone who dares to question a vaccine program should be kicked out of polite society." We see children being helped by simple interventions like restrictive diets; they say "those crazy parents who follow those diets are putting their children's health at risk."

Make no mistake, THIS IS NOT THE PARENT'S DOING. We were all the dutiful conscientious parents, the model pediatric patients, when all this started. IT IS A MASSIVE FAILURE OF MEDICAL SELF-GOVERNANCE that is the cause of this problem. You don't like how Jenny McCarthy argues? Well get over it. Your side of the debate plays dirty, ugly ball, with character assassinations and propaganda and lies cloaked in statistics as part of the regular mode of doing business. All funded (as are most evil things in medicine) by pharmaceutical money.

Carrie, what you need to come to grips with her is your own personal morality. As a prospective participant in system that is herding children and families to their ruin, we have come to a point where there are no longer "Good Germans." So what are you going to choose Carrie, to participate in a a system that harms children (and to complain that patients like Jenny aren't sufficiently compliant?) or to recognize the evil at this system's heart and act on that understanding

It's up to you.


As a medical student who will be a Pediatrician in less than a year, I find this debate very disheartening. I will never understand why someone like Jenny Mcarthy has gained the kind of credibility she has, where she is seen as more credible than people such as myself. Seven years of post-graduate training puts me on the same playing field as a mother who claims her child to have autism, which I'm not even sure I believe. How does one know her child was even correctly diagnosed? Why is it unfathomable that her child may have simply had developmental delays? Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling her a liar, I'm just appalled at how she has become a spokesperson for such an important cause. This is the same woman who keeps insisting that there is anti-freeze in vaccinations. For the answer on that issue , please search the difference between ethylene glycol and POLYethylene glycol. Two very different compounds, the latter of which is NOT anti-freeze.

For what it's worth, my stance on this is the following: autism is a very important issue and deserves every bit the recognition it is getting (and more). It is a thief and parents have every right to bark up every tree they see fit. With that being said, be careful who you listen to. Be careful who you look up to.

I for one, know that the vaccination schedule is only a "guideline". There are ways to administer vaccines, there are catch-up schedules and there are certain recommendations of implementation. Meaning that if a concerned parent is not comfortable giving their child 4 vaccines in one day, there is nothing that states that she cannot spread them over a month or two. If she is willing to come into the office several times in a row, then there is no problem. There are pediatricians who will do this and they can be found.

As for the "Which disease do you want your child to get?" question, there is no defending it. It is what it is. To me, the incident on LKL was meant as rebuttal to Ms. Mcarthy who has a wonderful way of not letting experts speak when it is their turn. She kept blurting out "Do we need this many? Do we need this many?" , a better answer would have been "Yes" but it required an explanation which she is never patient enough to wait for. It is difficult to reason with someone who cannot be reasoned with. Case in point: Ms. Mcarthy continuously refers to her "Mommy instinct", implying that it is something she has and something that greatly helped her son "recover" from his autistic journey. To me, she is implying that any mother who saw no results in their child probably lacks that "mommy instinct". How can one argue with such logic?

I beg of those who read this to remember that doctors are educated individuals. Pediatricians dedicate their lives to help other people's children. We go through so much to get there. Medical school is no day at the park. I am 250k in debt which is average cost for medical school nowadays. We are not monsters. We are not the enemy. This issue should never have become about doctors versus mothers. Everyone has the best interest of the child at heart. A good doctor will spread out your vaccination schedule for you, if that is your concern, if you are in the "too many too fast" school of thought. A good doctor will also sit down with you and answer your questions (which could never be done in one blog reply). A good doctor will explain to you that a fever caused by a vaccine is not a reaction to the vaccine. It is a reaction to the virus. The same virus that would have hurt or paralyzed your child if your child had gotten the illness.

A good doctor will also explain to you that nothing in the medical world can be 100% safe. That goal is not possible. You cannot ask for vaccinations to be 100% safe. It is a risk versus benefit scenario. The same way booster seats are not 100% safe. They are just safer than the alternative (no seat at all). We can certainly strive to make vaccines safer and we do. Vaccinations and their schedules are constantly being revised. Medicine is not perfect. There is so much we still don't know. We cannot be held liable for not knowing, it is the way the world works. We discover, we make mistakes, then we revise.

The focus should be on research. It is the only way answers can be found. We need to dedicate more research towards autism, find a cause (though it is likely multifactorial), find a cure and perhaps even a prevention. Wouldn't it be ironic if we could prevent autism with a vaccination?

To conclude, although I risk you attacking my reply, a worse fate would be not having you read it at all. If anything, please remember that physicians are not the enemy. A civilized discussion can be had and many misconceptions can be cleared up. Be careful who you listen to. Physicians dedicate their lives to medicine. They are educated in many areas, not only in realm of autism. We have earned some credit and our voice should be heard too.


A man came over to my house to clean up some smoke damage (I had a grease fire & we're all okay) yesterday and we started discussing the chemicals that might be used. I told him I had concerns because my son has autism. After breaking in the mercury subject, he said his son is a chiropractor, has 5 kids and would not let any get vaccinated because of the toxins in them. He said it's a hard decision when you think of the diseases they may get, but when he learned there were 1 in 166 with autism he thought the tables of risk had turned and the chance of getting a disease was less than getting autism!!!! By the way, this man doesn't have any personal connections with autism, just some really good common sense!


"Jenny said it perfectly on Larry King this past April "I would take measles anyday over a life time of autism, seizures.""



The Offits of the world aren't Science worshipers. There is nothing Scientific about them. There is no Scientific curiousity in them.

They are money worshippers parading about in the name of science and do to the name of science what suicide-bombers do to religion.

Craig Willoughby

Josh Day,
That, by far, is one of the best summaries of the Vaccine Thugs (Dorkski and his ilk in particular) that I have ever read. Hats off to you, friend!

Their egos are overinflated blimps. They are also like the Hindenburg in that one spark will set them off.


Julie - you hit the nail on the head. Fantastic.

Really what we want: Safety for our kids. All kids. Not just some... all.

Kids that are "collateral damage" is not acceptable.

Jenny said it perfectly on Larry King this past April "I would take measles anyday over a life time of autism, seizures."

Kelli Ann Davis

“Sometimes I wonder if they're really creationists in disguise, doing their best to undermine the real scientific method.”

Hey Josh,

Great reply.

I’d like to point out that believing in creation does *not* equate to a disbelief in the scientific method – the two are not opposed to each other. In fact, as a Christian, I believe that God designed all the laws of science. And the Bible has loads of scriptures demonstrating the “science” well before it was known by technological advances. For example, I read this a few months ago:

Job 37: 7
“He seals the hand of every man, that all men may know His work.”

When I read it I thought: My gosh. Palm prints. Finger prints. Completely unique to every man. No two the same. Almost like the signature on a painting.

Obviously, this would not have been known at the time of Job.

This is just one example of hundreds scattered throughout the Bible.


AM/Creationist *and* Believer in the Scientific Method ;-)


Great article and great comeback for 'that' question.
However, if by "The “Vaccine Court” just conceded a little girl’s Autism was aggravated by too many vaccines at once.." you are referring to Hannah Poling; that is an incorrect statement. Hannah's case was not conceded by the Vaccine Court, it was conceded by the Health and Human Services branch of our governement before it could be tried in the Vaccine Court. We need to be specific about these things.

Josh Day

"Sir, do you still beat your wife?"

You're dead-on with how pointless it is to argue with the Science worshipers (I'll get more into this concept of Sketpic science-fundamentalism further down). Internet forums are rife with "skeptic" e-thugs who attack, mock, and belittle anyone who dares point a skeptical eye at the medical establishment.

These people are cowards and bullies of the lowest order. I can count on one hand -- three fingers -- the times I've seen James Randi and quackwatch followers post with their real names.

When they're not busy posting people's home addresses and phone numbers across the Internet or trying to get the IRS after them (what a skeptic did to Jason Hawes of TAPS fame --or infamy, whichever way you look at it), they pull logic out of their basement and wield her like a scattergun. Claiming to be crusaders and upholders of logic, in reality they keep the old lass chained to the radiator and abuse her more than anyone.

"It is so because the experts say it is so!" is essentially the basis of many of their so-called arguments (a logical fallacy), which are no more than assault posts and Internet trolling than reason-based debates.

One must ask himself, "Are these the actions of an honest person, of someone who's really out to uncover the truth? Did Mr. Spock behave this way?"

Of course the answer is a resounding no, but it always makes me smile when I pose myself this question in the midst of a skeptic's hate-filled rant.

Their worst offense is their strange belief that science is some kind of religion, and all scientists and medical doctors are some sort of Elect, in the Calvinian sense, while we're the "unwashed masses" --their actual term for anyone who disagrees with them on ANYTHING. It amazes me that they think they'll win converts by attacking and name-calling and frothing with vitriol. Sometimes I wonder if they're really creationists in disguise, doing their best to undermine the real scientific method. Then I realize they're not that subtle or anywhere near that clever.

Like any Internet troll, arguing with them encourages their behavior. So it's not worth anyone's while, except the troll's. If you absolutely have to respond, turn the troll's act against him.

These guys have inflated egos the size of zeppelins. Don't engage them in anything -- like arguing with the class know-it-all, the argument will never end; it'll just turn into a louder shouting match until the teacher kicks you both out of class. Instead make fun of them, or, better yet, use their own words against them.

Nothing shows a person's true character like their own words.

Craig Willoughby

It amazes me at the immaturity of the vaccine-thugs. What a stupid question, don'tcha think?

My response?

"What chronic or neurological illness do you want YOUR child to get?"

Talk to the hand...

Oh, thank you so much for this article. I am so fed up with being called crazy, and getting into this debate OVER and OVER and OVER. You said it all. I take 10 deep breaths, and walk away. My usual reply is look at the FDA's website itself. There IS thimerasol in there, isn't there? And "Don't talk to me about it until you have thoroughly read the Simpsonwood Transcripts". TALK TO THE HAND :) This quiets them for a while, because most have not read it. I encourage everyone here to ask your public libraries to start carrying books such as "Evidence of Harm", and other related books. Ours immediately ordered it saying it is the "here and now" story. It was on the shelf within 1 week. This is a way to anonymously get the word to someone who may be interested. It is a simple way to help the cause. If libraries won't buy it, DONATE it!!!!

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.


Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name and email address are required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)