The Slow Moving Catastrophe of Behavior, Learning and Mental Health Problems in Kids
Today 4:00pm Eastern Dr. Paul Thomas Talks Health on the Pat Miller Show

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Luis

If an MD does malpractice, said doctor will face trial or charges in court. What happens to the big "Pharma" when the "malpractice" comes from them in the case of injury to children? The injured children are the ones who have autism and other neurological problems as a consequence of heavy metals in vaccines.
I agree with David. There is no true information on the part of the Pharma. Parents were not properly informed about the "preservatives" in vaccines, such as Thimerosal among others, at least I was not told about that when my child was vaccinated at age 2 and right after that he started to show symptoms of regression, PDD, Asperger's, ending up being diagnosed with ASD when he was in 7th grade.
Governments are on the Pharma side making us believe they are on our side. If they were, they should have forbidden the inclusion of toxic preservatives in vaccines.

cia parker

Eindecker,

Thinking further about it, I realized that it was callous to seem to brush off the deaths of anyone from contagious disease, and I did not mean to do so. The bottom line is that there are risks from both the diseases and the vaccines. Everyone must be aware of that and research both the risks and the benefits from the diseases and the vaccines, and then make the best decision he can. And even if he makes the best decision possible, taking into account the disease, vaccine, and particular person, it may still turn out to have been the wrong one in that case. But in this case, in general, measles is not a serious disease, while the vaccine is an extremely dangerous vaccine.

Linda, I've thought of that too. I've read that the mortality in measles outbreaks was exactly the same even in 1990, after at least twenty years of routine vaccination for these diseases, as it had been in 1960. It's certain that over-vaccination has weakened the immune system of many, possibly all, of those who were vaccinated. But it is up to each parent to decide what she thinks is the appropriate action to take for her family. I wish measles would come back so people could see that it causes a high fever for a few days, a cough, congestion, sometimes an ear infection, diarrhea, pneumonia, usually viral and self-limiting, sometimes bacterial and usually treatable with antibiotics. In the Swansea outbreak, the only fatality was an adult man who was severely immunocompromised, and he got giant-cell pneumonia untreatable by any means.

And the MMR certainly does often cause autism and bowel disease. Measles is not treatable allopathically, unless there's a bacterial infection, but parents may have to accept that there are many ways to treat most VPDs with herbs, vitamins, and homeopathy, while there's no way to reverse vaccine damage, or, if there is, it's a very difficult and little-known path to take.

And it's flippant to say that the gypsy babies should have been well-nourished, but it's also flippant to say just vax them and don't worry anymore about it. Ultimately you'd just have to let the well-informed parent decide.

Dr. Sears in the Vaccine Book says that even most adults come through measles just fine. My father had chickenpox in his forties and it wasn't a severe case. I think we need to see what the reality would really be here and now. I don't think I'd ever recommend the MMR. Rubella might come back, but getting the natural disease or the nosode would be better solutions than the vaccine.

It would be rough for a few years if we let measles come back, but of course everyone who felt that they might be in danger from measles could get a booster (and take their chances). In a short time, all girls would again be able to protect future infants, and 99% of kids would again get measles by the time they were grown. And that would definitely be better than the age of autism. Teach the value of vitamin A and of fever, of bed rest and hydration, and of the appropriate homeoopathic remedies if complications were starting. Pulsatilla is the most-often needed remedy for measles. Bryonia will encourage the rash to appear if it doesn't do it at the point that it should.

Grace Green

Linda, you're right, that's a huge increase. I'm not sure if your question to Eindecker was rhetorical, or you were hoping he would have to fathom it out, but my suggestions would be, some people are getting the measles as adults, when it will be more dangerous, and many are getting it before the age of one, because their mothers didn't have the disease as children and are not able to confer immunity on their babies. Whatever the reasons, your basic point is true that the use of the vaccine during the last fifty years has created a worse public health outcome than if we had continued without it.

cia parker

Eindecker,

I think that the benefits of having natural measles are so great for the vast majority that most people should not give their children the measles vaccine. They can if they really want to, but most people these days don't know how relatively mild and beneficial (great training for the immune system, permanent immunity to measles, the ability to protect future infants, and less cancer, heart diseases, and many skin and bone diseases in later life) natural measles is. Didn't you have it as a boy? I had it at six, and everyone I had ever known had had it (those older than I), and none of them was damaged by it. By 1963, while 99% of children had had it by 18 (sometimes subclinical), there were only 450 deaths out of four million cases. In children between three and ten, less than one death in 10,000 cases. Most of those who died were immunocompromised or malnourished. And now we know how beneficial vitamin A is and how dangerous antipyretics are. Many of those who died of measles in Europe last year were poor gypsy children in Romania, a country with a lot of poverty and malnutrition. The parents of such children should consider the measles vaccine, but not be compelled to get it, especially since unhealthy people are very likely to react to the vaccines.

I hope my daughter may still have the opportunity to get natural measles, mumps, and rubella: I refused the MMR for her when she was one year old.

Grace Green

Benedetta,
Tell your son not to listen to those who make jokes about young people still living at home. Here in the UK we have a housing crisis and the younger generation can't afford to buy or rent, so many stay at home. It works well for me and my son, who's in his 30s - he looks after the house and I look after the housework. Actually, I think I'm getting the better deal. Of course, young people really want to be independent, so we have to gently explain to them the harsh realities of life out there. If your son has some independence in other areas of life it may feel less of a problem. In later life, when he understands more, he'll be so glad that you made that provision for him. Good for you!

pharmster

Eindecker,

Your responses show that you didn't understand my argument. I don't want to repeat it again.

I am not sure what you are trying to show? That a vaccine can lower the number of cases and complications. I did not say otherwise.

Hans Litten

EVERY VACCINE HARMS
EVERY TIME

Linda1

Eindecker,

"Italy, a modern European country is in the middle of a measles outbreak, in the 12 months up to June 2018 there were 3967 cases of measles notified and 6 deaths consequent to measles were reported. Actually quite a high mortality rate but it’s the same old story 1 death for every 2 or 3 thousand cases of measles even in countries with good health care systems. In the same period France notified 2500 cases and 3 deaths, "

In the immediate prevaccine era, according to the CDC, measles mortality was 1 in 10,000. Why the change? Has the vaccine forced increased virulence as with pertussis (according to the CDC)? Or has the human population become weaker due to vaccination and other factors? In the post vaccination era, we are certainly not in a better place.

The other obvious point being, one would have to look at the medical record of each fatality to see exactly what caused the death.

Eindecker

Pharmster to answer you in detail
I think that's a highly misleading comment. We are talking about changes in living conditions. Of course you can find countries that have living conditions that we had 100 years ago but that's not what we are discussing here.
The ref I gave on diphtheria epidemiology in the UK during WWII refutes the idea that it’s down to changes in living conditions, of course improving living conditions do help, but the dramatic drop in cases and deaths from diphtheria could only be due to the introduction of the vaccine
To me it seems that Diphtheria is associated with poor living conditions. For whatever reason notifications of diphtheria, as well as deaths, decline once an adequate toxoid immunization program is in place
If you reduce the toxic effects of bacteria you see less cases and less deaths. That's it.
Nothing of this shows that you eliminate toxic strains. That's conjecture.
Actually Pharmster it’s not conjecture it’s a fact, However, immunization with toxoid also decreases rates of carriage of toxin-producing strains, but not of nonvirulent strains (Pappenheimer, 1980). see https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/diphtheria-vaccine for discussion of why this may be.
Yes there are millions of deaths from measles in some areas of the world but that does not mean that measles would kill the same number here.
Italy, a modern European country is in the middle of a measles outbreak, in the 12 months up to June 2018 there were 3967 cases of measles notified and 6 deaths consequent to measles were reported. Actually quite a high mortality rate but it’s the same old story 1 death for every 2 or 3 thousand cases of measles even in countries with good health care systems. In the same period France notified 2500 cases and 3 deaths,
Referring to the overall European situation Of 11 592 cases (90% of all cases) with known age and vaccination status, 83% were unvaccinated, 10% were vaccinated with one dose of measles-containing vaccine, 5% were vaccinated with two or more doses, and 2% were vaccinated with an unknown number of doses. The proportion of unvaccinated cases was highest among children below one year of age (93%), who are too young to have received the first dose of the measles-containing vaccine. https://ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/documents/Monthly-Measles-Rubella-monitoring-report-July-2018-1.pdf
I don't think that the numbers of deaths from 80 years ago would be the same as today.
People still die of infectious diseases in the 21st century, even with the best medical care: a small outbreak of Haemophilus influenza b in Minnesota during 2009 killed one child: One of the five Minnesota Hib meningitis cases was in a 5-month-old child too young to have finished its first series of Hib shots. Another case was in a child who got all the shots but who turned out to have an immune deficiency.
The other three cases -- including the death -- were in infants whose parents refused to vaccinate them. Parents of two children objected to vaccines; the parents of the third child were waiting to vaccinate until the child was 5 years old.
https://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/news/20090123/hib-outbreak-kills-unvaccinated-child#1
Re tetanus suggest you look at this for US data https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6012a1.htm Among the 92 patients for whom tetanus toxoid-containing (TT) vaccination status was available, 37 (40.2%) had received no doses of TT vaccine.

Benedetta

A great deal to think about CIA Parker. The last thing mine wants to do is move out. He is very fearful about it. Then he hears all these jokes on those that are 30, still living at home, and thinks that perhaps he should move out; but he has no clue how, and great fear about it. . He ask me how much is rent usually? I told him not to worry about it, I built this big house just so he would be comfortable.


I have a friend down the road that bought his son a trailer and moved it right beside him, and right in front of his grandmother's house. I think his son was some what like your daughter about wanting an independent life. When his grandmother died, they sold the trailer and his son moved into the grandmother's old house. But I don't, why pay for the extra, electricity, fuel for warmth, property tax just so a child has some appearance of independence when in fact they do not?

My property tax is pretty high though. At the time I built it, I was thinking of both of my kids reaching mid 20s, their 30s, their 40s --- now I am thinking about how they will survive in their 50s when we might not be here to pay those taxes.


We will be alright if we win the lottery, soon I hope.

cia parker

Thank you, Benedetta, I just ordered a Nolo book on how to get and keep SSI. I bought an excellent Nolo book on making a third-party special needs trust, used it and copied their form typing it myself, you would be AMAZED at how nasty both SS and Medicaid were about it. I sent Medicaid a copy of the trust I copied from the book, just personalizing it where necessary, and Medicaid sent me a letter on Friday several weeks ago saying I had until Monday to give them proof that it really existed at a bank, or they'd throw our whole case out. So the boy at the bank wrote a nice letter saying that they had reviewed and accepted it. The government taxes interest on third-part special needs trusts at a very high rate, over 30%, I think, but you only have to pay taxes on it if it earns over $600 a year in interest. All my assets, (may not be anything left by the time I die), including our house, will go to it when I die, and my successor trustee(s) will have to fool with it. Surprising that the government and its agencies want to continue to screw those they've disabled even if you might have thought they had already done their worst. We still have a doctor's appointment in Jeff City in September for getting approved for Medicaid. It sounds like Medicaid has a new program for paying the rent on housing for the autistic, a Medicaid waiver, I really don't know anything else about it. C insists that she wants to move out and be independent, and is very hostile about it. Our county case manager agrees that she'd have to have someone looking out for her, so I don't know what's going to happen. I've told her that we'll look and see what our options are after she graduates next spring. I'm worried about keeping track of how we spend the money, it seems overwhelming. I don't know how much it's going to be, I spent an hour and a half getting the silly vaccine exemption form and it didn't even have meningococcal disease on it. I checked off all the diseases listed and in the blank for Other put meningococcal, flu, and anything else. So they're making a big deal out of making everyone with religious exemptions do it again for this new required vaccine, and it's not even on the form. And I've got days of translations to do piled up, I haven't had time to call the woman at Social Security. I've been translating all afternoon. I think it will be a lot more than $500 a year. You have to charge your adult child for their share of the rent, dividing it up among those living in the house or apartment, or you get penalized by SS. I'm not sure if you're supposed to charge for utilities and property taxes as well as rent, or just some of them. But I realized that whatever I get to charge for rent is mine to do with what I want to, for food they say that you can't spend more than what they allot you for food or you get penalized a third of the SSI benefit, but parents who can afford it go ahead and take the penalty, as what they give you isn't enough to eat reasonably well. I'm not sure yet how detailed the records of what I spend on food have to be. I may have to check out of stores in three steps: things just for me (all those herbal remedies to help me sleep), things we both eat, and things only for her. Except that I don't think anyone else does it that way.

Thank you. I also wish I just didn't have to deal with this, that paying for college were the biggest of our problems. I also liked Vaccines 2.0, I was thinking as I read it the other day that it's fun to read and has a lot of good information in it.

Benedetta

Congratulations CIA Parker on receiving the SSI; that is a big hurtle to get over.
I hope that it is more than 2,000 dollars a year?
However the best part now a days is Medicaid; assess to health care, and not going bankrupt if anything happens, that means a lot, and I am sure is a great comfort to know that you are covered. I would have loved that the most. I tried just for that, but at last it was not to be.

Vaccine 2.0 was good enough for it was going through all the diseases just as you are and trying to help decide.
As far as the back lash against those that question vaccine safety gets blamed for any sudden reappearance of some disease; well are we not the back lash. So, that would be a backlash to the back lash? If they had worried one wit about safety of vaccines, showed one bit of concern that your sweet young one is not able to even hold a fast food job, drive a car, or experience the sweet pleasure of going to college for at least a semester and joining in the social life there: I would not trouble myself about a back lash to a back lash.


I am glad you have SSI, I am sorry that you have to have it with all my heart.

cia parker

Benedetta,
Sorry, I just looked at the copyright of Vaccines 2.0. I remember I got it in February, but it was THREE and a half years ago, not two.

cia parker

Benedetta,
I got and read Vaccines 2.0 when it first came out two and a half years ago. I was just reading sections of it the other day. I think the first part is excellent, with a lot of information on how and why vaccines often cause severe damage. My problem with the second part is that the authors tried to assign a numerical figure to each of ten factors, plus and minus, and then give the resulting total. And then give charts showing where each vaccine stood overall. I think this was a great oversimplification of a complex matter. They wound up only having the measles, pertussis, Hib, and rubella, the only one with scores which added up to over the break-even line, meaning that they would probably recommend getting them. The pertussis vaccine received their highest commendation. But the calculation was based on factors like pertussis being very dangerous for newborns. They didn't factor in that pertussis is NOT dangerous for anyone else, except the severely immunocompromised. So yes, pertussis kills one in 200 of the very youngest newborns who gets the disease, those in the first two months of life. That's why I highly recommend sheltering young newborns at home and not putting them in daycare. But by the same token, 199 out of 200 of the very youngest newborns who get it recover from it. Only about nine babies a year in the US die of pertussis. So they give the disease a +4 (highest is 5) rating as for severity of the disease. I think the meningococcal pathogen should get the highest rating for severity of the disease, but I'm about to go to the Health Department to get a religious exemption for Cecily from getting the meningococcal vaccine for twelfth grade. But I'm going to be getting a nosode from Cilla Whatcott to prevent mengococcal disease. They give the pertussis vaccine a +5 for protecting the herd, but in Australia they stopped giving the vaccine for free to family members of newborns to cocoon them, because studies had shown that it really didn't. The vaccine is hugely ineffective and does not even claim to protect against similar diseases like parapertussis. They give the risk of infection a +2. The risk of infection is very high, I agree with that. Cecily, of course, after three DTaPs, caught it at a La Leche League meeting when she was eight months old, and gave it to me. They gave it a +2 for how well it works, but it really doesn't work well at all. http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/54/12/1730

Only 41% of toddlers and 24% of elementary-school children were "protected." I put it as a quote because it's really better for children older than infancy to just get the disease and if they have NEVER gotten a vaccine for it, they'll get permanent immunity and girls will get the ability to protect future infants. Otherwise original antigenic sin will prevent this from occurring if they ever get the vaccine. They recognize that it has serious side effects, -3. Cecily reacted to the booster at 18 months by losing her only words and being diagnosed with autism two months later. For the susceptible, the rating would be -5,000,000. And for risk of disability and death they give it a -4. Overall risk-reward rating 3. For a disease which is not dangerous after two months old, is rarely dangerous even before two months old, the vaccine for which often causes asthma, allergies, SIDS, seizure disorders, autism, and many other conditions listed on the package insert.

It's the same for the other vaccines. If a vaccine like the MMR or the hep-B vaccine are EXTREMELY dangerous, but they reduce the risk of other people getting the diseases, then those factors cancel each other out. It is not reasonable to present the factors as though all were of equal weight. And the authors recognize that and say that parents must judge for themselves, but the charts and weights assigned superficially look as though they were very meaningful.

In the last chapters, it seemed as though the authors had lost their voice, and just gave examples of several doctors with alternative vaccine schedules and gave them with no discussion of their pros and cons.

Right now I'm rereading Dr. Isaac Golden's Vaccination and Homeoprophylaxis? Review of Risks and Alternatives. He gives many scientific references for everything he says. On the whole, he prefers homeopathic nosodes for disease prevention, but he is fair. I was reading what he said about meningococcal disease this morning: everyone agrees that it is an extremely serious disease, often fatal within 48 hours, and fatalities are common even with rapid hospitalization. But it is fairly rare. And there IS a homeopathic nosode, as well as remedies for treatment. But he says that, as with Hib and pneumococcal disease, that the nosode is usually, but not always, preventive, and that if the disease occurs, then homeopathic treatment must take a secondary place next to hospitalization and antibiotic treatment. That is fair, honest, and reasonable, and I respect that. As expected, he thoroughly discusses the many toxic ingredients of each different vaccine, and yet he still thinks it is reasonable for parents to choose vaccines OR nosodes for some of the more dangerous diseases. Nosodes are clearly the safer choice, but I'll be asking the homeopath how long any studies which may have been done indicate that protection lasts. We'll be going to the Mayan Riviera next year, in the dry season, but I'm still apprehensive about dengue and chikungunya, as well as rotavirus. We stayed with friends in Mexico City in June, and they said that while Oscar was in Chiapas for an architectural project for several months, he caught dengue, and his wife, who visited him there, also caught it. I even found when googling that malaria has come back in several areas of Mexico, though not the Mayan Riviera as of yet. Zika is there to some degree, but I don't think it's dangerous, certainly not unless you're a pregnant woman, so if we get it, good, we'll get immunity.

I also really like Dr. Randall Neustaedter's The Vaccine Guide. I learned that he and Dr. Golden have an adversarial relationship, and Dr. Golden describes a fight they had over the diphtheria vaccine. There are a lot of facts to sort through on either side, and no choice is guaranteed to be safe.

Benedetta, I have a message from SS saying that we've gotten SSI! Now we'll have to work out all the many details. And I fully recognize that if not for the hep-B vaccine at birth (given without permission) and the DTaP booster at 18 months, that Cecily would be normal now and looking forward to going to college next year. It's not that I'm pro-vax, but I'm also wary about the potential devastation caused by some of the VPDs, and I think most of the vaccines are clearly protective against the diseases in most cases (90% is typical), and some of them are more dangerous than others.

Benedetta

CIA Parker while you are doing all that reading - read this one too.

https://www.amazon.com/Vaccines-2-0-Careful-Parents-Vaccination/dp/1629147311/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1534901400&sr=8-1&keywords=vaccine+2.0

pharmster

Eindecker, I don't think you understood what I said. hint: I did not say the two vaccines didn't cause a decrease in deaths/cases.

I have already explained everything and I won't post it again.

michael

Eindecker back to August 17th on glyphosate in breast milk, lets just say the "overweight lady" is still deciding what she wants to sing. This recent announcement: https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Brazil-Poisonous-Agrotoxin-Found-Over-80-of-Breast-Milk-Samples-in-Urucui-20180809-0008.html.
At the bottom is google translate of the abstract from Portuguese to English. The detection method used HPLC. Beyond that, it it is going to be self-explanatory because it is way beyond my pay grade.

Also from reading--glyphosate becomes embedded in protein and can be left undetected if not freed up from the peptide chain. This can be accomplished using enzymes. From the Samsel Seneff paper:

"In 1989, Monsanto researchers conducted an experiment on exposure of bluegill sunfish to 14C-radiolabeled glyphosate [89]. One of us (Samsel) obtained the (unpublished) report from the EPA through the Freedom of Information Act. The researchers had found that, with EDTA extraction, the amount of radiolabel in tissue samples was much higher than the amount of detected glyphosate. They decided to apply a digestive enzyme, proteinase K, and discovered that this “caused a substantial improvement in extractability”. It brought the yield from 17–20% in the case of EDTA to 57–70% following digestion with proteinase K. They summed up as follows: “Proteinase K hydrolyses proteins to amino acids and small oligopeptides, suggesting that a significant portion of the 14C activity residing in the bluegill sunfish tissue was tightly associated with or INCORPORATED INTO PROTEIN” (present authors’ emphasis). In this context it is important to recall that a 60- to 120-fold higher detection level of BMAA was obtained following protein hydrolysis of contaminated proteins [84]."

The Washington State Univ. study likely missed what was present by not using an extraction process to free up glyphosate or its metabolite.


Abstract:
ABSTRACT: Glyphosate is the pesticide with the highest potential risk to human health because it is the most commercialized in the world, in Brazil and in Piauí. Based on this reality, this study aimed to evaluate the contamination of maternal milk by glyphosate agrotoxic in puerperas attended at public maternity hospitals in Piauí. We adopted a cross-sectional descriptive and cross-sectional study design applied in the municipalities of Teresina with 164 participants, Oeiras with 27 and Uruçuí with 13 participants. A method of laboratory analysis of the samples of breast milk applied to the technique of high-performance liquid chromatography coupled to ultraviolet radiation detection diode, through the derivatization reaction of glyphosate and its metabolite aminomethylphosphonic acid by 9-fluorenylmethyl chloroformate. After experimental tests, the method chosen for the analysis of breast milk samples was the isocratic gradient using the solvent acetonitrile 10%. It was tested in triplicate and the presence of glyphosate and aminomethylphosphonic acid in chromatographic peaks in the range of 263 nanometers (nm), with a correlation coefficient (r) equal to 0.9993, calibration and confirmation of its efficiency and linearity. Analysis of breast milk samples was limited to the detection of both substances. A total of 62.5% of the samples collected in Oeiras and Uruçuí were detected, with 64% of them being glyphosate or aminomethylphosphonic acid. When disaggregating by municipality, contamination was verified in 46.1% and 83.4% of samples analyzed from Oeiras and Uruçuí, respectively. It was concluded that the contamination of the mother's milk by the agrotoxic glyphosate was high, proving its severity and importance as a risk factor for the health of the woman and the child. ABSTRACT: Glyphosate is a herbicide with the greatest potential risk to human health because it is the most commercialized in the world, in Brazil and in the State of Piauí. Based on this reality, this study aimed to evaluate the contamination of maternal milk by glyphosate agrotoxic in puerperas attended at public maternity hospitals in Piauí. We adopted a descriptive correlational study of cross-sectional applied in the municipalities of Teresina with 164 participants, Oeiras with 27 and Uruçuí with 13 participants. We developed a method of laboratory analysis of the samples of breast milk applied to the technique of high-performance liquid chromatography coupled photodiode detector array, through the derivatization reaction of glyphosate and its metabolite aminomethylphosphonic acid by 9-fluorenylmethyl chloroformate. After experimental tests the chosen method for the analysis of the samples of breast milk was the isocratic gradient using the acetonitrile solvent to 10%. It was tested in triplicate and when passing through the detector we verified the presence of glyphosate and aminomethylphosphonic acid in chromatographic peaks in the range of 263 nanometers (nm), with correlation coefficient (r) equal to 0.9993, which led to the construction of the calibration curve and confirmation of its efficiency and linearity. Analysis of breast milk samples was limited to the detection of both substances. A total of 62.5% of the samples collected in Oeiras and Uruçuí were analyzed, where we detected presence of glyphosate or aminomethylphosphonic acid in 64% of them. When disaggregating by municipality, contamination was verified in 46.1% and 83.4% of samples analyzed from Oeiras and Uruçuí, respectively. We concluded this study by showing the high contamination of the breast milk by glyphosate agrotoxic, proving its severity and importance as a risk factor for the woman's health.

Comments made in the interest of science.

cia parker

Eindecker,

Thank you for the references, I just put them into three separate files on my desktop, separated by disease. You made several of the points which I have made here in the last few days. I think we should try not to be dogmatic. Vaccines certainly are often dangerous, probably always do some degree of harm, but if your choice is between a conceivable risk of death or disability from a VPD and the risk from a few of the more important vaccines, recognizing that neither choice is risk-free, it's reasonable to choose the vaccine. I absolutely think that vaccine use should be minimized, as the risk increases the more you get, and infants shouldn't get any except maybe the Hib vaccine if not breastfed and in daycare, and under 18 months old. Under present circumstances.

What you said about tetanus spores not having disappeared from the soil is true, and is similar to the fact that Hib germs are ubiquitous too and carried by many healthy people much of the time, and could be transmitted to a susceptible baby. A toxigenic strain of diphtheria could easily reappear. It seems likely that even if the toxigenic strains are uncommon now, that they could become more common and once again kill large numbers of people. Same with polio. There's almost no risk in refusing the polio and diphtheria vaccines now, and certainly that choice avoids the risk of the vaccines, but if a lot of people refuse then they could come back and that would change the situation.

Eindecker

Pharmster, tetanus spores haven’t miraculously disappeared from the soil, from dirt have they, yes it’s better wound hygiene but also widespread immunization with toxoid vaccine that’s caused the decline in tetanus. The age profile of tetanus has shifted to the elderly because of waning immunity, hence the recommendation to get a booster shot in middle age. If you want a dramatic illustration of the efficacy of tetanus toxoid vaccine look at the comparative incidence of tetanus in US armed forces in WW1 then in WW2 when immunisation was used by the Americans, but not by the German or Japanese forces in that war who had much higher rates http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/korea/recad2/ch6-6.html
I'm unclear what message you are trying to put across here, did you open the ref giving UK experience of diphtheria over a century, the dramatic drop in cases and deaths over 4-5 years can only have been due to diphtheria toxoid vaccine, there was a war going on and life was v hard in the UK, both during the war and for a decade or so after 1945, so there certainly were no change due to environmental factors to account for this drop.
I'll give you 2 other instances of dramatic declines in disease incidence following the introduction of vaccines :
Hib https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/407089/Graph_showing_Haemophilus_influenzae_type_b_laboratory_reports_2014.pdf Hib lab reports went from 300/quarter to c 20, in a matter of a couple of years following the introduction of this vaccine and this is well into the era of modern antibiotics and doctor's awareness of the importance of treating meningitis, so again no societal changes can account for this.
There's a far more recent example, the introduction of meningitis C vaccine http://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/menc-vaccine see graph at the last page showing lab confirmed cases of meningococcal C disease dropping from >800 to c 20 in 5 years following the introduction of the vaccine

cia parker

Jeannette,

I was interested in your comment and just read about bacteriophages. What a dog eat dog world it is out there. Diphtheria killing right and left, while viruses invade the diphtheria bacteria, and the diphtheria microbes are often parasitized to boot. I just read how many billions of bacteriophages there are in a single cubic centimeter of sea water, and it made me cringe. Le silence éternel de ces espaces infinis m'effroie.

And it might be that we get continual boosters from the ubiquitous germs, the way we used to do to chickenpox. But the fact that no one (very few) in the Western world gets diphtheria anymore I think is a testament to the effectiveness of the vaccines. Our immune systems don't even let clinical cases get started. I just read a list in Wikipedia of recent cases of diphtheria, it really wasn't very many, although certainly not comprehensive, and easier to imagine them as real human beings. When you read that 40,000 a year used to die of it in the '70s, it's hard to imagine it as a real human tragedy, figures that large just boggle the mind. But if you saw their photos one by one, however long that would take, I think you'd say Give the survivors the vaccine.

Jeannette Bishop

My understanding is that diphtheria bacteria (various species) are ubiquitous, but can become dangerous, toxin producing, in the presence of a virus (B phage?), rather like scarlet fever. Makes me wonder if the vaccines that seem most effective (in terms of titer readings years later) are the ones for microbes we're continually exposed to (continually generating the antibody arm of immunity maybe), but are we actually effectively programmed to fight a dangerous case of diphtheria when the right circumstance for that occurs?

pharmster

"Tetanus is killing 2.6 people a year now because close to 100% of Americans have gotten the tetanus series, which gives protection for at least forty years."

yes but no vaccine is 100% effective, some parents do not vaccinate their children and in some cases the protective titers don't last. If you think about it Tetanus can't be as common as it used to be back then.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0196064403010515
http://n.neurology.org/content/42/4/761.short
https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/9071251

cia parker

Pfarmster,

Tetanus is killing 2.6 people a year now because close to 100% of Americans have gotten the tetanus series, which gives protection for at least forty years. I've read that most of those who get tetanus are elderly people who haven't gotten a booster in a long time. And it's also true that not many people have contact with horse manure the way they used to. But it's also true that we continue to have contact with the poop or decayed-in-the-ground poop of dogs, cats, guinea pigs, and, really, all mammals, including humans, which has tetanus spores in it. Also true that most fertilizer now has been sterilized to kill things like tetanus spores. There are too many factors involved to give even a rough estimate of how many people might get clinical tetanus if no one vaxxed for it. I'm glad I got a tetanus booster when Chiara (we changed her name to Killer) the gerbil bit both of us, and would hang on and not let go. She had a leg wound from the breeder which never healed, caused her chronic pain, and her premature death from sepsis, I'm not blaming her, but I was a little concerned about tetanus from the bite wounds. But if it's true that vaccine protection lasts forty years, I'll probably never get another one.

I learned in the Plotkin and Mortimer book that a certain percentage of the population has immunity to tetanus from natural exposure to low levels of the toxin. It's probably true that that was as true a hundred years ago as it is now. But at this time I don't think anyone knows if they're naturally immune or not, nor if their tetanus vaccine protection is still working.

I just looked up the population of the US in 1921, it was 108.5 million, and now it's 326,766,748 million. So closer to three times more rather than the four I said in my previous comment.

cia parker

Pfarmster,
The international agencies only mounted a campaign to give the diphtheria vaccine in the Third World in 1980, and the rate of disease plunged by ninety % in twenty years. The rate of diphtheria in the UK during WWII was high until the vaccine was introduced nationally in 1943, according the chart put up by Eindeker, and the rate plunged right down to zero immediately. Living conditions continue to be very poor in many countries in the Third World, because overpopulation taxes the ability to nourish hungry populations. Living conditions in the UK continued to be very poor in the UK for the rest of the War and for some years after. I'm not disputing that hunger, cold, and misery contribute to incidence of deaths from diphtheria, and it's clear that the vaccine does prevent diphtheria and starts to do so as soon as it starts to be given. And I don't dispute that well-nourished healthy adults usually have resistance to clinical cases of diphtheria and it will may be mild if they gt it. But even First World societies have a lot of babies, elderly people, immuno-compromised people, and malnourished people who might easily get and die of diphtheria if no one vaxxed for it and it came back.

As for tetanus, 1,560 Americans were diagnosed with it in 1921, the highest year, with about 50% dying of it. I'd have to look up the population then and compare it with the population now, but since the tetanus spores are ubiquitous, I'd say that the rate of infection would be comparable population-wise now as then. We'd have at least a somewhat higher survival rate with the muscle relaxants given in hospitals now. It's impossible for me to predict any better than that. Fatality is still between ten and fifty percent when tetanus occurs, even with hospital care. We should certainly educate on the benefits of vitamin C treatment. I don't know, is our population now four times what it was then? At 30% mortality that would be 1,872 deaths a year. Without vitamin C. I don't care what people choose. Whatever happened would make other people's decisions easier in the future.

pharmster

"Which is not going to happen, at least for diphtheria and tetanus. We would have to see if a toxigenic strain came back and how deadly it was."

Tetanus in the United States is killing 2.6 people each year. At least some people are not immune against it. If we said that all of these are not immune and 1% don't have immunity against tetanus that would be 260 deaths each year if no one vaccinates. I would say the percentage that is not immune is possibly higher so I don't see how tetanus could ever come back in a big way regardless of whether or not people vaccinate.

pharmster

"The WHO article I linked at the bottom of my comment last night said that in the 1970s in low and middle income countries there were fifty to sixty thousand deaths a year from diphtheria, but when the diphtheria vaccine was introduced in the '80s there was a 90% reduction in diphtheria between 1980 and 2000. And that's recent history."

I think that's a highly misleading comment. We are talking about changes in living conditions. Of course you can find countries that have living conditions that we had 100 years ago but that's not what we are discussing here.

Yes there are millions of deaths from measles in some areas of the world but that does not mean that measles would kill the same number here.

cia parker

Pfarmster and Jeannette,

The WHO article I linked at the bottom of my comment last night said that in the 1970s in low and middle income countries there were fifty to sixty thousand deaths a year from diphtheria, but when the diphtheria vaccine was introduced in the '80s there was a 90% reduction in diphtheria between 1980 and 2000. And that's recent history.

Sure, we could say that most of people in the First World are healthy and well-nourished enough that we probably wouldn't die of diphtheria if it came back, but the old, very young, immune-compromised, and marginally- or ill-nourished even in the First World would probably be hard hit if no one vaxxed. Which is not going to happen, at least for diphtheria and tetanus. We would have to see if a toxigenic strain came back and how deadly it was.

pharmster

"And, again, it's not that I'm in favor of vaccines as much as I'm against babies choking to death from diphtheria. As many thousands used to do before the vaccine."

I don't think that the numbers of deaths from 80 years ago would be the same as today. This was before we even had antibiotics. Look at what happened to Tuberculosis which killed far more than Diphtheria.

Mortality from virtually any infectious disease dropped dramatically in the past 150 years regardless of whether or not we had a vaccine for it. Scarlet fever used to be one of the leading causes of deaths. Were are the people dying from scarlet fever today?


Jeannette Bishop

I believe financial warfare was the major driver in loss of life expectancy (probably including increase diphtheria incidence and mortality) in Russia. Not something to dismiss as we are poised to perhaps undergo the something much the same here in the U.S. (if not more of "the west") if the same players get away with it here as well, but vaccination status may not provide any meaningful protection:

"Russia in the 1990s was a case in point. During that decade, there was significant political and social turmoil. Russian literature points out the the vaccinated develop diphtheria and that mortality is highest in those who are malnourished and alcoholic. In 1994 male life expectancy dropped from its high of 65 years down to 57 years in Russia. (337) Belarus data from 1990s show that highly vaccinated Russia still had diphtheria.

"'The analysis of vaccination history shows that out of 11 cases 7 (63.6%) were vaccinated according to schedule, 4 vaccinated but not according to schedule. (338)'

"An outbreak in St Petersburg, Russia, occurred in the 1990s. More than 2500 cases were in that city. A complete analysis of the vaccination history and disease severity was undertaken. The authors concluded that vaccine immunity is 'short lived' and that:

"'If a wide diphtheria epidemic affects an industrialized country, it would probably not any more be the big killer that it was in Europe and in the United States in the 19050s and 1960s. (339)'"

(Dissolving Illusions by Humphries & Bystrianyk, p. 203-4)

They go on the describe some benefits observed with high vitamin C dosing against bacterial toxins. Something worth adding to any health training and application IMO.

I believe some of the graphs of the section on diphtheria are here:

http://www.dissolvingillusions.com/graphs/ (starting with graph 16)

cia parker

Thank you, Eindeker, I saved your page to my desktop. It was stunning how the incidence of diphtheria plunged in the UK from 1945. I just looked for more information on it: worldwide even in the 1970s, there was a million cases a year with fifty to sixty thousand deaths a year in the Third World. From 1980 to 2000 there was a 90% reduction, largely because of the use of the toxoid vaccine. The antitoxin was introduced in the US in 1894, but it caused serum sickness (allergic reaction) in many cases and sometimes killed. In the US in the '20s there were 13,000 to 15,000 deaths a year, with 100,000-200,000 cases a year. In the 1880s the mortality in Europe and the US was 50%, but it went down to 15% by WWI, largely because of the use of the antitoxin. In Europe in 1943, in the thick of the War, there was a million cases with 50,000 deaths from diphtheria, and that was when the UK introduced the toxoid vaccine, with the dramatic results seen on your chart. I was surprised that the WHO document said that the vaccine was only introduced in Europe and the US in the 1940s. That is not the case: it was developed in 1921, and started to be used, but wasn't widely used in the US until the 1930s. The article I cited about the Russian outbreak said that the vaccine had been used there since the 1920s.

I think we will have to continue observing the situation, but these statistics on the huge number of deaths from diphtheria even in recent times is horrifying. And the immediate plunging down to zero once the vaccine started to be used is impressive as well. And I know that both the antitoxin and the vaccine were often dangerous. I'd just have to say the parent would have to make the decision considering both sides in his place and time.

http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/258681/WER9231.pdf;jsessionid=7B741898840CCB7C278569155FF87E55?sequence=1

Eindecker

Cia, Pharmster, David here’s some UK epidemiological evidence on the role of toxoid vaccine in the elimination of diphtheria:
Graphs showing UK incidence of diphtheria & deaths 1914-2014 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450155/Diphtheria_notifications_deaths_Eng_Wales_1914_onward.pdf
Information on introduction of toxoid vaccine in the UK
The outbreak of the Second World War provided the necessary impetus to introduce diphtheria vaccination with central government allocating funds to local authorities to meet the costs of introducing the programme. By the end of 1942, a third of all children under 15 years of age in England and Wales, and a half of all in Scotland had been protected against diphtheria. https://peopleshistorynhs.org/encyclopaedia/childhood-vaccination-and-the-nhs/
Why did the disease decline before this in the US, but not apparently in the UK? The use of horse anti-toxin was more common in the US “One of the most infamous outbreaks of diphtheria was in Nome, Alaska; the "Great Race of Mercy" to deliver diphtheria antitoxin is now celebrated by the Iditarod Trail Sled Dog Race Of course improved living conditions also helped, but the precipitate drop in cases following the introduction of toxoid vaccine in the UK, in the middle of the second world war, was clearly the major driver.
As to why the anti-toxin vaccine should result in a drop in the number of cases, as well as deaths, this may well be that the disease in vaccinated individuals is relatively less severe with no toxin effect “ In the UK, the classical disease is now very rare and clinicians may not recognise it. Milder infections (without toxin production) resemble streptococcal pharyngitis and the pseudo-membrane may not develop, particularly in vaccinated individuals. so clinicians may not have recognised the disease as diphtheria, some references refer to it as being no worse than a sore throat in vaccinated individuals.

cia parker

David Burd,
You cited less than 500 diphtheria deaths in the US in 1948. The DPT was introduced that year, but the diphtheria vaccine by itself had already been being given since the 1920s. I put up a figure from a Mothering book the other day which said the highest number of diphtheria cases in the US was in 1921, 206,939 cases. So in 1921, shortly before the introduction of the diphtheria vaccine, there were that many cases and 15,520 deaths (see link below) from diphtheria in one year. I am not fear-mongering. Diphtheria used to be a horrendously destructive disease, and as soon as the vaccine was introduced, rates of both incidence and death plummeted. Your quote from 1948 was over twenty years AFTER the vaccine was introduced. Don't forget how Hib disease almost disappeared within five years of the introduction of the vaccine: once people start getting them, they work fast to quell the disease. My quote about diphtheria in the Soviet Union the other day said that the diphtheria vaccine had started to be given there in the 1920s. Mercury was put into it as a preservative in 1932. In other words, the vaccine was introduced and immediately started saving lives many years before the year you cite, which was MANY years after most children had been getting the vaccine. No wonder less than 500 of them died.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline?timeline_categories[]=50

"Diphtheria once was a major cause of illness and death among children. The United States recorded 206,000 cases of diphtheria in 1921, resulting in 15,520 deaths. Diphtheria death rates range from about 20% for those under age five and over age 40, to 5-10% for those aged 5-40 years. Death rates were likely higher before the 20th century. Diphtheria was the third leading cause of death in children in England and Wales in the 1930s.[1]
Since the introduction of effective immunization, starting in the 1920s, diphtheria rates have dropped dramatically in the United States and other countries that vaccinate widely."

And, again, it's not that I'm in favor of vaccines as much as I'm against babies choking to death from diphtheria. As many thousands used to do before the vaccine.

david m burd

@ Cis Parker,

In your latest Comment you say: "Diphtheria was decreasing in incidence, probably because of better nutrition and housing, but it was still killing thousands a year when the vaccine was introduced."

Don't you listen?! My prior Comment way back on this thread regarding Diphtheria deaths in the U.S, for children under 5 years age, per the United States Vital Statistics, on mortality for 1948 was less than 500 for that year. Yet you cite "thousands."

It's sensible to project that without ever having the damn very-toxic DtaP vaccine, this mortality would have kept going down toward zero via proper nutrition, etc. and/or improved medical care.

Please, stop your fear-mongering that is not justified,

cia parker

Pfarmster,

I just reread Eindeker's comment. He grants that the toxigenic strains may be reduced by another virus which parasitizes them, but adds that the toxigenic forms are still circulating in countries with low vaccine coverage like India and Indonesia. I don't think we can be sure what is happening with diphtheria worldwide or what it's going to do in the future. It may develop defenses against the parasitizing virus.

cia parker

Pfarmster,

It is premature to say that the toxigenic strains have disappeared. I found in one book that diphtheria experienced a resurgence every eight years and another book said ten years. Pertussis resurges about every three and a half years, and measles and chickenpox, I think it was every two years, but I'd have to look it up and I'm translating right now. Eindeker mentioned an organism which parasitized some forms of diphtheria: it would be interesting to know more about that. I think we'd need worldwide statistics over maybe twenty years of the strains of diphtheria carried by sample populations. Maybe the toxigenic kind has disappeared or will disappear. English sweating sickness killed many thousands in France and England in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, brought over from France in a war, and then completely disappeared so that no one knows exactly what it was. Henry VIII's brother died of it and Anne Boleyn nearly died of it. Some noble families lost all their children to it, and then it just disappeared.

pharmster

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01645221

"Ten years ago the incidence of diphtheria was relatively high in Greece and a survey of school children had revealed a carrier prevalence of non-toxigenic Corynnebacterium diphtheriae of 3.4%. A similar survey undertaken now has revealed that the disease seems to be disappearing. Among 895 school children (6–13 years-old) in seven primary schools of different socioeconomic levels, only seven were carriers of non-toxigenicC. diphtheriae strains, corresponding to a prevalence of 0.8%. Toxigenic strains were not found. All the carriers were found in a school serving a socioeconomically deprived area"

To me it seems that Diphtheria is associated with poor living conditions.

cia parker

Laura,

I just read your articles. The first one was only about the measles outbreak in California and the MMR. I am in favor of permitting all healthy children to get measles and I am against the MMR, although I would warn women that they need to have a plan if they're planning to get pregnant at some point, or even might become pregnant accidentally, if rubella comes back. Natural exposure would be best, I would like my daughter to get natural exposure to M, M, and R, but I don't know how to do it. It could be done on a national level, but isn't available now. So that leaves the nosode as the only safe option other than the unsafe vaccine.

Your second article was about advice to parents, and I have several concerns with it. I agree that some of the major contagious diseases were decreasing in incidence in the First World before the vaccines. Measles, however, was still infecting 99% of American children by the age of 18 in 1963, the year the vaccine was introduced. A good thing, but it was not decreasing in incidence. Both pertussis and measles became naturally attenuated, so that they were no longer nearly as dangerous as they had been. But when the less effective DTaP was introduced, pertussis made a reappearance so that it is now a very common disease. Only dangerous to a few of the youngest newborns and the immunocompromised, but it's common enough that it should be protected against in these groups. Isolation and nosodes. Scarlet fever has virtually disappeared in the US, and for a while it was the biggest killer of them all. Still around as strep throat: you should wait two days before starting antibiotics, to give your immune system time to make antibodies to it. Diphtheria was decreasing in incidence, probably because of better nutrition and housing, but it was still killing thousands a year when the vaccine was introduced. So we're back to the question: is it better to knowingly promote not vaxxing for diphtheria KNOWING that it will cause thousands of babies to choke to death, because you want to see if it will eventually fall to low levels or disappear by itself with no vaccine? How many parents would go along with that? Same with tetanus, polio, and Hib disease.

You advocate breastfeeding, keeping infants at home, not taking them to the supermarket, daycare, or doctor's offices, giving them only nutritious organic food. I do too. But we had a discussion here a few weeks ago about how it wasn't possible for most American families to be able to afford any of these measures. And, even if you left the baby with a babysitter while you went to the store, it would be common for the mom to catch a cold or flu while standing in the checkout line or touching a bin with organic apples that an infected person with germs on their hands had just touched. And then the mom would take the germs home with her. And if the baby has a severe cough which is interfering with breathing, she's going to have to take him either to a doctor or to the ER, with all their germs. My daughter was breastfed until self-weaning, which turned out to be exactly five and a half years old. I only bought organic food for her. But she still caught pertussis at 18 months old at a La Leche League meeting, a bad flu probably at a play group at three and a half years old, a bad flu with severe vomiting which lasted a week at nearly five years old, chickenpox at nearly two, a bad summer flu with vomiting at seven, which started her bowel disease, the EV-68 virus four years ago at fourteen, bronchitis several times which caused months of coughing, and many other colds and flus. And all of that was good for her immune system, but it wasn't that years of breastfeeding and organic food protected her from the diseases.

No vaccine is 100% effective, and no one has ever claimed that status for them. A 90% effectiveness rate is probably the average effectiveness rate. But they do usually reduce incidence by at least that much. The pertussis and flu vaccines are much less effective than that. But the reason that no one, unfortunately, gets chickenpox or measles anymore is because close to everyone has gotten the vaccines. I think it is fortunate that no one gets tetanus, diphtheria, polio, or Hib disease anymore, but that is because nearly everyone has gotten the vaccines for them. I think it's better to look at the diseases, incidence, mortality, virulence, and vaccine reactions individually, and then look at the total number you are considering, and the age and health status of the person contemplating vaccination or having it contemplated for him.

I don't trust the government, and I am aware that no vaccine has been tested against a completely unvaxxed control group. Of course they should be. But in the meantime, you have to look at how many people who have gotten the vaccines I mentioned have not gotten either the diseases or severe vaccine reactions to these vaccines. I don't think it would be good to refuse these four vaccines on principle and then in some cases have the child die or be crippled by them. And you have to look at the evidence put forward by those doctors who have had good outcomes using their reduced vaccine schedules. As well as the outcomes of those who got these vaccines before the Vaccine Epidemic of MANY vaccines being routinely given after 1990.

It is not the case that vaccines cause only harm. Vaccines have saved the lives of many who would otherwise have died of diphtheria, tetanus, or Hib disease, or have died or been crippled by polio. And a number of lives from the other diseases, too, but there you get onto the turf of a lot were permanently damaged by the vaccines, while the diseases are not usually as serious as the ones which most concern me, so it gets harder to make comparisons which result in overall benefit from the use of the vaccine(s). If you forbid Prevnar, for example, then you have made yourself responsible for those who die of pneumococcal disease who would not have died if they had gotten the shot. I'm willing to say that I would not recommend Prevnar, recommending instead the nosode if desired and the health-promoting measures we agree on, if the family is able to provide them, but I'll also say that the disease DOES kill a certain number of people, and the vaccine DOES have dangers, but would in many cases protect against the disease. Serotype replacement and the many reactions to it ARE factors which everyone should know and consider, but it is still true that the disease CAN be dangerous, even deadly, for many people.

And as for pets, it is a good thing that rabies is very rare now in pet dogs and cats, because most of them get the rabies vaccine. Also true that most of them get too many: it is thought that one, at most, two rabies vaccines will protect most animals for life, and overuse of the vaccine causes cancer in many pets now. But you shouldn't completely forbid the rabies vaccine, because it would result in the horrendous death of many animals of rabies, as well as the deaths of a certain number of humans who got rabies from them. Feline distemper is an evil disease, and the vaccine CAN cause adverse reactions, including kidney failure, but it is considered the most effective vaccine for any species, including humans, meaning that it has saved the lives of millions of kittens. It gives protection for at least seven years, probably for life in many cases. So I don't think that it should be forbidden, but it does have dangers, and its use, like that of all vaccines, should be minimized.

pharmster

cia,

"I don't think you had seen the comment I put up last week when you commented last, and, of course, you're free to doubt its accuracy, but I found the following in Dr. Halvorsen's book:"

I don't think you understood what I meant. I don't doubt that deaths declined due to Diphtheria vaccination but you have to understand that does not mean that the vaccine was fighting the bacteria. They were not. They were designed to prevent damage due to toxic effects of the bacteria.

If you reduce the toxic effects of bacteria you see less cases and less deaths. That's it.
Nothing of this shows that you eliminate toxic strains. That's conjecture.

cia parker

Pfarmster,

The tetanus vaccine is similar to the diphtheria vaccine in that both of them target toxins produced by the pathogens and not the pathogens themselves. And that makes the diseases particularly dangerous, as the tetanus and diphtheria toxins are among the most potent and deadly in the world. Right up there with poison ivy toxin. Infection with the diseases really doesn't matter as they are usually mild in themselves.

Laura,

I'll read the articles you linked, but it's not fair to say that you don't think that healthy people would suffer disability or death from the contagious diseases. A large percentage of the people in every society are not healthy and many cannot become healthy, for various reasons. And of course individual health is important, but at least as important is the virulence of the infecting pathogen, and if it is very virulent, then it will fell and kill even the healthiest individuals. Especially since the healthiest individuals have very active, alert immune systems which often mount so vigorous a response to the disease that its very response is what kills. Inflammation is its primary response, and this inflammation can itself kill. As in the Spanish flu, in which healthy young adults in their twenties and thirties were the hardest hit and the most frequent fatalities. And new pathogens often have a very high fatality rate, because no one's immune system has seen them before and it doesn't know how to respond to vanquish it. That's why diseases that had become relatively mild in Europeans, Africans, and Asians, such as measles, were so devastating and killed 90% of the indigenous Americans after the arrival of the Europeans. And why Ebola had almost a 100% kill rate when it first appeared in people in 1976, and also why mortality had fallen to around 50% four years ago in the pandemic in Africa: people's immune systems were starting to learn how to cope with it. And many people got subclinical cases and antibodies that way, which is the way it always works. Probably subclinical cases are being contracted from sewage infected with minimal levels of the virus even now. In another fifty years, Ebola will probably have become like chickenpox, fairly mild and universal in Africa. But if the vaccine for it works, and it may, then most people will get the vaccine for themselves and their children, and the natural process will be disrupted. You could say that in the long run it's better to just let tens of thousands of people die in agony so that their descendants may benefit from the eventual natural process of attenuation. And there's something to be said for that, but only if you're mainly concerned with the whole population and not with the individuals involved. And, again, I wish they would do large-scale studies of the effectiveness of the nosode or crotalus horridus in protecting people from Ebola with homeopathy. That would be a much better answer, if it worked as well as I think it probably would.

cia parker

Pfarmster,

I don't think you had seen the comment I put up last week when you commented last, and, of course, you're free to doubt its accuracy, but I found the following in Dr. Halvorsen's book:

"The department of health itself admitted the decline in the death rate of children from diphtheria couldn't be attributed solely to immunization. After all, this had fallen from 888 deaths for every million children in 1901 to 301 deaths per million in 1938 (a 66% reduction), and all this happened before the introduction of widespread immunization. But there was little doubt that immunization helped, and it was estimated that the death rate in 1946 was one-fifth of what could have been expected had the death rate continued to have fallen at the pre-immunization rate." (Martin WJ, "The recent trend of diphtheria in England and Wales," Monthly Bulletin of the Ministry of Health and PHLS," 1948: 232-236. "

So yes, diphtheria was declining before the vaccine, but the vaccine still reduced deaths to one-fifth of what they would have been before the vaccine if current reduction rates had continued. And it came back in force in the ex-Soviet Union forty years later. It is not gone from the earth, and if conditions were right, it might easily come back, even in First World countries. We certainly have enough immune-damaged people with sub-optimal immune systems.

I put this up the other day and you commented on it, so forgive the redundancy, but Plotkin and Mortimer give possible reasons that diphtheria has not come back, even though most adults no longer have antibodies to it. One additional factor is that in many cases, antibodies fade, but there is still cellular immunity which doesn't show up on antibody tests. Plotkin and Mortimer think that it is very likely that when most children have immunity to diphtheria, that it creates a type of herd immunity.

In this regard an important question is whether the proportion of susceptible individuals has increased in recent years, perhaps because the widespread immunization of children has resulted in a diminished circulation of toxicogenic C. diphtheria in the population and a consequent decrease in reinforcement of immunity by casual exposure to the organism. Curiously, however, a comparison of the results of current serological surveys of diphtheria antitoxin levels with those of 25 to 40 years ago provides no evidence of an increase in the proportion of nonimmune adults (granting that strict comparability among these various studies does not exist).

Nonetheless, it can be hypothesized that the reason that these low levels of immunity in adults have been associated only with small focal outbreaks of diphtheria in recent years is a form of herd immunity due to high levels of immunity in children. It has been generally accepted that 70% or more of a childhood population must be immune to diphtheria to prevent major community outbreaks, but this is an oversimplification of a more complex issue. Whether an epidemic occurs is influenced by a number of factors other than the proportion of immune and susceptible persons in the population, including the age distribution of immune and susceptible persons, the extent of mixing of individuals and subgroups in the community, and the infectivity and routes of transmission of the organism. In countries with high rates of childhood immunization against diphtheria, it may well be that epidemics do not occur among adults, up to half of whom may be susceptible, because the reservoir of disease in the childhood population has been eliminated and because the strains of C. diphtheriae circulating in the community are less apt to be toxigenic. Nonetheless, although there is disagreement, the proportions of susceptible adults is of sufficient concern that most authorities recommend maintenance of diphtheria immunity by periodic reinforcement using Td."

I don't know how we would ever be able to tell for sure since we don't have any virgin population in the world which has never gotten the diphtheria vaccine, and if we did, I don't think the residents would be willing to see how many of them died of diphtheria if the members assigned to a control group didn't get the vaccine.

Hans Litten

Posted by: Grace Green | August 18, 2018 at 05:31 PM

I think you are one of the better people posting here. No doubt.

Please go to AutismOne.org and view the 2018 videos.

Something has happened the perpetraitors never figures on, is that science has swept past them, and that communication would improve to this degree.

I really feel they are clinging on now.
They are spending their time blocking science that exposes them.
They are spending their time locking down the internet because the narrative is in freefall.

Cia, Endecker .......

Number 20 . Nagalase surreptitiously secreted into vaccine to promote cancer ?

pharmster

"I thought until several years ago that vaccination was optional in European countries, but then learned that in France the diphtheria, tetanus, and polio vaccines were mandatory. I can't find the article with each country's schedules that I saved, but I just found this:"Q

I think you may have misunderstood what I had written. I did assume that all children in europe were vaccinated but I said that adults weren't.

If you introduce a childhood vaccine you don't vaccine adults and because of this it takes a long time before you get herd immunity on a population level because of this even in the nineties 50% of europeans did not have good or any immunity against diphtheria because the older generations were never vaccinated.

rtp

That's good. Eindecker can spout his nonsense but Age of Autism has decided that it doesn't want actually consistent anti vaccine voices and only wants people who say "vaccines are great but just need to be made a teensy bit safer" so my responses get moderated.

pharmster

"as soon as every country has introduced the diphtheria vaccine (and Hib, polio, measles, tetanus, chickenpox, etc. vaccines) rates start to drop, even precipitously drop, until very few or no cases occur and most people have vaccine antibodies in their blood."

Cia, but rates would have started to drop just due to the fact that the Diphtheria vaccine protects you from getting the symptoms of the disease because it blocks the effect of the toxin. From this alone you can't conclude that it reduced or eliminated the number of diphtheria infections.

The diphtheria vaccine was modeled after the tetanus vaccine which may have lowered the rate of tetanus cases but it certainly did not not decrease the number of tetanus infections.

The other vaccines are not good examples as they were designed to target the germs not the toxins.

David Weiner

Grace,

I am inclined to agree with your assessment. It is not a pleasant reality, but one that we must face.

Grace Green

I don't think we will ever end the autism epidemic (and all the other diseases being caused by vaccines) until we realize that "They" are doing this deliberately. I've just been watching videos by parents who have seen their child suffer a vaccine injury, and the response they get from the doctor is complete denial and lies. They know what they're doing.
The reason that the governments/Pharma are doing this is in order to make us all dependent on their drugs, so that we won't dare to start a revolution. If the state collapsed and people couldn't get their necessary pills they know they could be suffering dreadfully. That's why the conditions they're causing us to have are not usually fatal, but are chronic. This makes everyone feel they would rather have the governments they've got than risk trying to change things. Somewhere in the Book of Revelation (last book of the New Testament) it prophesies that people will suffer from open wounds (eczema?) which won't kill them but they'll wish it would. This is what our governments are aiming to do to us. When I detoxed from dental aneasthetics and stopped getting hay fever, I can't tell you what a relief it was to be no longer dependent on their antihistamines. Take control of your own and your families' lives, folks, and together we'll beat Them!

cia parker

Pfarmster,

Plotkin and Mortimer said that the evidence for the success of the diphtheria vaccine was indirect, so to speak, but I agree with them that it is convincing. As soon as every country has introduced the diphtheria vaccine (and Hib, polio, measles, tetanus, chickenpox, etc. vaccines) rates start to drop, even precipitously drop, until very few or no cases occur and most people have vaccine antibodies in their blood. I'm not saying that it's necessarily a good thing, measles and chickenpox are very healthy for children to get, I'm just saying that that's what happens, and there really is no other logical explanation for it.

Dr. Richard Halvorsen, in Vaccines: A Parent's Guide, p. 63: "The (diphtheria) vaccination campaign was hugely successful. By 1943, half of all children in the UK had been immunized. Though the death rate from diphtheria was already falling, immunization appears to have hastened the decline.

The department of health itself admitted the decline in the death rate of children from diphtheria couldn't be attributed solely to immunization. After all, this had fallen from 888 deaths for every million children in 1901 to 301 deaths per million in 1938 (a 66% reduction), and all this happened before the introduction of widespread immunization. But there was little doubt that immunization helped, and it was estimated that the death rate in 1946 was one-fifth of what could have been expected had the death rate continued to have fallen at the pre-immunization rate." (Martin WJ, "The recent trend of diphtheria in England and Wales," Monthly Bulletin of the Ministry of Health and PHLS," 1948: 232-236.

cia parker

Pfarmster,
I thought until several years ago that vaccination was optional in European countries, but then learned that in France the diphtheria, tetanus, and polio vaccines were mandatory. I can't find the article with each country's schedules that I saved, but I just found this:

"Starting in 2018, as many as 11 vaccinations will become mandatory for children under the age of 2 in France, up from the current three (diphtheria, tetanus, and poliomyelitis)."

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/newsletter/2017/nov/more-mandatory-vaccinations-young-children-france

But beyond that, nearly all middle-class, even working class children in Europe have always been vaccinated with DPT, polio, and MMR, plus many of the newer ones. Not because of mandates but because for many decades it's just what responsible parents did.

cia parker

The issue of pet vaccines is also very interesting. You should read the chapter in Don Hamilton's book on Homeopathic Care for Dogs and Cats. He's against vaccination for pets and has seen a lot of vaccine damage in them. Then there's Marty Goldstein who wrote an excellent book with a chapter on vaccines. And Dr. Pitcairn's book, the first. Then there's Dr. Jean Dodds on the Internet who has a minimal vaccine program which is very popular and which I followed. Many authors recommend that if you have a puppy or kitten, the vaccines won't work until the maternal antibodies fade (same as for measles vaccine), but that time varies. So they say a vaccine for canine distemper or the feline distemper-calicivirus-rhinotracheitis vaccine at nine weeks old, then the second dose at sixteen weeks old. Parvovirus at twelve weeks and nineteen weeks old. Then rabies for both at six months old, with a booster one year later. And that's all. I got an e-book on Amazon called How to Immunize Your Dog without Vaccines by a Serbian homeopath, Aleks Mikic, and I talked with her on Skype and bought nodoses for our new puppy. But I was frightened enough of parvovirus that I got the minimal vaccine schedule as well. And no others.

It's really interesting, literally thousands of dogs and cats have reacted to vaccines with fatal sarcomas, and many with many other kinds of vaccine damage, including organ failure. But, as with humans, the main culprit seems to be over vaccination. Getting all the pet vaccines every year is absolute insanity which even the mainstream veterinary associations have recognized. But not my neighbor, who gets her two cats ALL the feline vaccines recommended by her vet EVERY year. The cats are thirteen years old now and she's ninety, so it would be good if the cats met a natural demise before she does. She has no one who would take them when she dies.

Laura Hayes

Greg,

Thank you for taking the time to think through why vaccines must be eliminated at this point in time. I have covered that topic both in an article I wrote here on AoA, and more extensively in my WAPF presentation:

"Vaccines: Elimination Mandatory!" by Laura Hayes

http://www.ageofautism.com/2016/09/vaccines-elimination-mandatory.html#more

"Vaccines: What Is There to Be 'Pro' About?" by Laura Hayes

http://www.ageofautism.com/2016/12/vaccines-what-is-there-to-be-pro-about-laura-hayes-to-weston-a-price-foundation-conference.html

David,

Agreed, a far superior market model is needed. Government regulatory agencies are not the solution, and won't be in the future, either.

Sophie,

I greatly appreciate your vote of confidence with regard to your suggestion that I run for office. At this point in time, I have found the most effective way to turn the tide is still the slowest, that of one-on-one conversations...which I like to think also "take place" via my articles, interviews, rally speeches, and presentations. And, of course, the full-time job of taking care of our severely vaccine injured young adult son makes having another full-time job outside the home next to impossible. However, never say never, right?! Perhaps the day will arrive when that is the course of action I am to take next :)

Cia,

You asked me, "What is your advice for parents if and when the most dangerous contagious or infectious (tetanus and pneumonia are infectious without being contagious) diseases return in the absence of vaccination? Just good nutrition?"

Please see these 2 articles of mine which contain information pertinent to your question:

"Disney, Measles, and the Fantasyland of Vaccine Perfection" by Laura Hayes

http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/disney-measles-and-the-fantasyland-of-vaccine-perfection.html

"I Have Decided to Vaccinate My Child Because..." by Laura Hayes

http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/08/i-have-decided-to-vaccinate-my-child-because.html#more

Additionally, just because a "disease" is frightening does not mean a vaccine for it is safe, effective, needed, or wise. Health does not come through a syringe full of toxins, viruses, bacteria, carcinogens, food proteins, glyphosate, chemicals for which the body has no need, retroviruses, contaminants, and poisons being injected into a closed system, while also bypassing the first parts of our God-given, intricately-woven, highly-effective, complex-beyond-our-comprehension immune system.

cia parker

Greg,

I don't think that that is exactly my position. I would love to get no vaccines and recommend no vaccines: I know that all of them are on a continuum from causing imperceptible damage never associated with the vaccine in many people all the way to autism, severe autoimmune disease, organ failure, and/or death.

I cautiously recommend consideration of a few of them because it would be so dangerous for large numbers of people, or even small numbers of people, if they didn't vax, or if large numbers didn't vax and the diseases came back. I'm not giving vaccines the benefit of the doubt, but more saying that if your choice is between a chance (highly variable) of a severe or fatal case of Hib, polio, diphtheria, or tetanus, then in many cases I'd take or recommend the vaccines for them, even in the state the vaccines are in now. At this time in the US, there is close to no chance at all of getting polio or diphtheria, so I have no problem with people skipping those at this time. Tetanus has always been rare, but the spores are all around us all the time, carried by many mammals and in their poop and in the soil after the poop decays. I read that 30% of dogs carry it, also most guinea pigs. Yikes. I've had two dogs here and have dumped tons of used rabbit and guinea pig litter with their poop into the back yard or garden, and walked barefoot in the yard. People just have to realize that it's a possibility, that it's a horrifying disease, and even now it's often fatal. Yes, good wound care is essential and prevents most cases, but half of all cases of tetanus are from unapparent wounds or splinters. How many people are going to gouge open the site of a splinter with a knife to flush out the entire area? (And I'm certainly not recommending that they do. But the splinter is now in an anaerobic site where the tetanus spores can flourish if they were present. ) I would LOVE to see a large-scale study done on outcomes of even 5,000 children who get the DT series after the age of two, and none others. I would never put my hand in the fire and say that the vaccine will be safe for the vaccinee. But it IS almost 100% effective in preventing tetanus for, in most cases, over forty years. And almost 100% of the people you see around you every day got numerous tetanus shots and boosters (usually, unfortunately, as the DPT or DTaP). And everyone must judge for himself if he thinks the outcome for all those people was satisfactory enough for him to take the chance of the tetanus vaccine. I can say that it's satisfactory enough for me. It's not that I'm giving it a free pass, which seems to be the implication of "giving it the benefit of the doubt." One of my books says that no one who had ever seen a case of tetanus would fail to give the vaccine to his child. I think that's a big part of what's missing here. Very few or none of those here have ever seen severe or fatal cases of these diseases, largely because, for better or worse, nearly everyone we see every day has gotten the vaccines to prevent them. And that's crucial. It would be one thing if I said, Oh, I think we should believe the doctors who say that vaccines are nearly always harmless and absolutely don't cause autism. I've heard friends say they have had severe reactions etc., but I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and get or recommend them anyway. That is not the case. But in the case of these four diseases (two if you just count those conceivable here and now, only tetanus for those who breastfeed and keep their babies at home to prevent Hib disease), I think the vaccine outcome in the case of everyone I know is good enough for me to say that the diseases are MORE dangerous. I know that some people have had severe reactions to just the tetanus vaccine, but most don't.

David Weiner

Greg,

I agree with you that the debate within our movement is healthy and that it helps us to increase our knowledge, sharpen our arguments, and so forth.

I do not subscribe to the (so-called) government regulation model of promoting safer goods and services. I think that it is a terrible approach, for a variety of reasons, and we can clearly see that this is the case in the context of the health care sector. We can complain about the regulatory failure and hope that one day the regulators will do a better job. Or we can seek to replace the failed model of government regulation with a better one. This latter approach is the one that I promote.

The government regulation model is premised on the notion that the government should have a monopoly on decisions about which goods or services should be allowed on the market. The model assumes that the bureaucrats have all of the necessary information and wisdom needed to determine which goods or services are suitable for every single person. All of these premises are deeply flawed.

In a free society, the quality of goods and services is "regulated" in a different manner. Businesses operating in a competitive environment need to make sure that the safety of their products are good in relation to their competitors (note that in the current environment, not only do the FDA and CDC do a poor job of determining which vaccines pass muster, other would-be competitors are shut out, since they are priced out due to the FDA's approval gauntlet. So they are gagged and can't advertise that their products are safer and/or more effective than vaccines).

Businesses operating in a free society are not allowed to commit fraud, as is the case in our "government regulation" of vaccines environment.

Business operating in a free society are liable for harm that their goods or services cause. This ensures that products that are excessively risky will either not make it to market, because they can't charge enough to cover the liability insurance, or will be subsequently pulled after lawsuits.

Businesses operating in a free society depend upon approval of competing private firms to certify their products. These firms succeed only if they have a good track record of doing sound assessments. If they make major mistakes, they will lose business to firms that are more trustworthy. Contrast this with what happens when the government monopoly regulator fails.

In short, instead of trying to shore up a failed model, activists should be advocating for the far superior market model.

david m burd

Jeannette Bishop,

Thanks so much for JB Handley's article and the additional references contained therein:

https://jbhandleyblog.com/home/2018/5/14/savehumanity

Here on AoA Comments there has been an amazing array of technical knowledge from all sides; however JB ties it all together, and essentially sifts through all competing vaccines' pro/cons.

I urge everybody to read and pass on JB's truly encompassing knowledge, and I would guess his wife also shares the credit. Thank you Mr. and Mrs. Handley!

Benedetta

Oh, and by the way; my sister-in-law was not able to get SSI either, but she lives in Mississippi, and they are tough on everything. Her second son is a mess too (bipolar and ADHD really bad). She is blessed though cause her eldest son is married to a hoarder, and they have two little boys that they are well on their way destroying. The oldest had to get on the short bus when it was 3 and 1/2 years old to work on having weak muscles for speaking. Both the boys have weak muscles in the eyes that makes them cock eyed, and are wearing eye patches and special glasses. They are still getting those yearly flu shots - along with insulin shots since last year one developed diabetes.

We are in our own little world for the most part. We can get isolated a bit. We think we are rare, and so being a generous people (we are) we still worry about and even stick up for vaccination of some of the more horrible diseases. Don't worry CIA Parker; we have a government and the CDC to do that for us and ignoring just how really bad vaccine injuries are.

Benedetta

CIA Parker; I have been through all of that too. I think my son's psych evaluation was given on the second appeal. She was private, but the federal government sent their cases to her that was in her area. She said she had seen a lot of cases like ours and that is why she was selective in the vaccinations of her children, or did she say she did not vaccinate? I can't remember, and I am not sure if perhaps her profession has taught her how to get along and draw people out by giving the appearance of being very accepting of ideas? We lost that second appeal. The third appeal sent us to the big huge federal building in our state; to see a judge.

Yes, I went though a lawyer on the third appeal; she (the lawyer) filled out all that exact same stuff that I filled out two times before; myself. I even had a big binder of ever piece of paper from doctors, psychs evaluations, and education papers from right on back to his birth. It was all in order, and I even had written a short guide to it all in the front with a way to quickly reference it the papers that I had in the giant big binder.

.

The federal building had a security guard that took his job really seriously. He wanted to make sure that the metal on my back (my bra hooks) was exactly that.

We got no compensation (the way I looked at it). Maybe my son is not so disabled after all? That might be the case as I look at my sister-in-laws twins that are really disabled. They do not have epilepsy, but they have I Qs of 69 and 70. They did not even capable of getting a high school diploma, just a certificate that they did attend the whole four years. However; I think it makes a difference in what state you live in.


A back lash of the public, if diphtheria comes back might be the least of our problems


Greg

David, I agree completely, and I would add that disagreements within a movement is not necessarily indicative of  weakness, but often can be seen as a strength, and vitality of the movement.  Consider the Civil Rights and Suffrage movements from the past both had their fair share of internal disagreements and competing ideas.  I would also add the listless consensus that we find with provaxxers, as they roboticly mouth off about vaccines being safe and effective and calling for an end to the discussion, projects insecurity and weakness.

Still, something about Cia's support for vaccines got me stumped that I had to give it a deeper thought as to what was so problematic about it. I think Laura's take that any other product with as much complaints and concerns circulating it would've been pulled a long time ago is instructive here.  This view exposes a basic rule concerning product safety, and that's guilty until proven innocent, and not criminal court one of innocent until proven guilty.

When enough complaints and concerns are lodged against a product, in the interest of protecting consumers we air on the side of accepting the complaints and taking actions against the product.  If, of course, further testing scientifically clears the product, then we accept that it's vindicated or innocent, but never before then.  It's never the case of giving the product the benefit of the doubt.  Interestingly, if you listen to the 'shrewd' provaxxers you will find that they also abide by this rule.  You will never hear them say let's give vaccines a break, but, instead, they will parrot the line that we must accept vaccines because science has established that they are safe and effective.  

Reflecting on what Cia is now saying about vaccines,  we find the basis of her support extends from wanting to give vaccines a break or the benefit of doubt.  Cia has long exposed her concerns about vaccine safety research, so its quite clear that her support is not extending from 'trusting the science'.  Cia, instead,  is strictly asking that we give vaccines the benefit of the doubt, lest things backfire and we face undesirable consequences.  Compare this thinking to suggesting  that we refrain from pulling that birth-control pill from the market that is suspected of causing cancer because we're only dealing with mere suspicions, and, besides, the pill has shown remarkable success in preventing unwanted pregnancy.  Of course we would not buy this line, not so much because we accept the suspicions, or even because we consider that the potential risks of not sanctioning the product may outweigh the benefits. We would still pull the pill since it's the only prudent option given the hit to the pill's reputation.  Again -- it's guilt until proven innocent. 

Now Cia, please understand that I am making this argument not so much wanting to criticize you, but to aid in the understanding of where exactly you're going wrong with your support.  By my own argument, I too am guilty for not  joining Laura in calling for an immediate ban on all vaccines.  Again -- given the serious and ubiquitous complaints surrounding vaccines, this is the most prudent and just option.  Likely most antivaxxers here are also not in favour of a ban, and they too should be faulted.  I suppose what makes your position appears more of a 'heresy' and betrayal is the fact not only are you disagreeing with sanctioning vaccines, but you're actually taking things one step further by recommending them.   

Jenny Allan

From The Guardian UK (although this story has been taken up in several UK mainstream press outlets)
EXTRACT:-
"Weedkiller found in wide range of breakfast foods aimed at children
Cancer-linked herbicide, sold as Roundup by Monsanto, present in 45 products including granola, snack bars and Cheerios"
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/aug/16/weedkiller-cereal-monsanto-roundup-childrens-food
"Monsanto, which said it will appeal against the verdict, has said glyphosate has been used safely for decades. In 2015, the EPA said that glyphosate has a low toxicity for people but could cause problems for some pets if they consume the chemical.
However, the World Health Organization has called glyphosate a “probable carcinogen” and authorities in California list it as a chemical “known to the state to cause cancer”.
In April, internal emails obtained from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) showed that scientists have found glyphosate on a wide range of commonly consumed food, to the point that they were finding it difficult to identify a food without the chemical on it. The FDA has yet to release any official results from this process.
There was no indication that the claims related to products sold outside the US.
US farmers spray about 200m pounds of Roundup each year on their crops, including corn, soybeans, wheat and oats. It can also be used on produce such as spinach and almonds."

Monsanto, of course is screaming these levels are safe, safe safe, but let's not forget Roundup was designed as a selective weedkiller to be sprayed on cereal crops modified to resist the chemical. In view of the fact that cereal crops are a basic foodstuff for humans and animals, we can safely assume this stuff is now present in our own bodies and those of our children, as it will also be in animal meat and milk . Vaccines, grown in chicken's eggs or pig derived agar medium will have picked up the contamination.

I am disgusted by all the attempts to claim this chemical, admitted by the WHO to be a 'probable carcinogen' is safe for human consumption.

Hans Litten

Posted by: Eindecker | August 17, 2018 at 06:11 PM

You are possibly correct.
Someone explained to me that if monsatan wins on appeal according to law the case is then closed forever and can never be reopened ..... is this correct ?

So defeat in the opening round could potentially be planned, expected and part of their tactic ?

Eindecker

End of discussion I would suggest (End_decker): Nope, not over until the fat lady sings Sophie, and she’s ain’t even on stage yet…
1 These results allegedly finding glyphosate in vaccines were never published in a journal & subject to a proper peer review

2 This Moms Across America report is here https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/yesmaam/pages/1707/attachments/original/1473130173/FullGlyphosateinVaccinesReport_(6).pdf?1473130173 To detect Glyphosate, an enzyme linked immuno-sorbent assay (ELISA) was used at Microbe Inotech Laboratories Inc.

3 This Elisa test used is a screening test to test for the presence of glyphosate in WATER samples, it has never been validated to test in vaccines
“ELISA testing methods for pesticides can produce false positive and false negative results and thus cannot be used by regulators. ELISA methods can give inaccurate results. These methods are usu-ally used as a screening tool and any positive results have to be confirmed by a chromatographic method to be usable in risk assessment.” Quote from The Detox Project: “The Detox Project has created a unique one-stop resource based on independent peer-reviewed science to help you under-stand more about the probable harm being caused by glyphosate-based herbicides worldwide.”

4 The Moms Across America report refers to the need to do further non-Elisa testing, but makes no mention of any results obtained, instead it relies on the Elisa results which are only reliable to screen out negatives, not to quantify positives, and certainly not without further non-Elisa testing.

5 Of course we’ve been here before, in 2014, when Mums across America published another report claiming to have found glyphosphate in mother’s milk, again not peer reviewed in a journal, using the same Elisa test by the same analytical laboratory, without further analysis to confirm positive re-sults https://www.momsacrossamerica.com/glyphosate_testing_results This led to extensive testing using verified methods https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150723133120.htm in independent laboratories without any evidence of glyphosate in the breast milk, even when there were traces in the urine samples.

So Sophie Moms Across America used the same screening technique twice, not validated for screening milk or vaccines and certainly not capable of producing reliable positive results without appropriate secondary testing, or as the lead researcher in this investigation said "The Moms Across America study flat out got it wrong," said McGuire, who is an executive committee member for the Interna-tional Society for Research in Human Milk and Lactation and a national spokesperson for the American Society for Nutrition. "Our study provides strong evidence that glyphosate is not in human milk. The MAA findings are unverified, not consistent with published safety data and are based off an assay de-signed to test for glyphosate in water, not breast milk." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150723133120.htm

So there is zero reliable verified evidence to support the claim of glyphosate in vaccines, it’s a rehash of a previously debunked scare story from the same sponsor using the same methods: end of discus-sion Sophie ?

cia parker

John,

I had read that the pneumococcal vaccine was not very effective in elderly people. And, as I said, it is one I would refuse if I were raising a small child. I was thinking of a backlash if serious epidemic diseases return. I don't think pneumococcal meningitis would be one. The germs are ubiquitous, but most people are not affected by them, or get only mild disease. Most, but not all. I'm really thinking only of diphtheria and polio, should they come back, and Hib disease and tetanus. But we all know that if there were a polio epidemic again, and children were being permanently paralyzed, that people would say that antivaxxers had led them astray. And lose faith in our wisdom or our knowledge. And turn to the pro-vaxxers, many of them. I think it's good to be as honest and accurate as possible. I think when measles returns, people will be shocked at how undangerous it usually is. And I always forget to mention rubella. Same thing, as soon as people saw deformed babies from CRS, they would go back to the rubella vaccine, maybe the whole MMR. It would be very desirable to deliberately expose schoolchildren to measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox at school, one a year, and then not have to worry about it.

David Weiner,

Thank you, I agree. Totally agree that most people just get whatever their doctor (i.e. pharma rep) recommends.

Benedetta,

Thank you. It was a psychologist who saw Cecily yesterday. He asked some questions (which I had to answer) and then did an IQ test. I told him about the vaccine encephalitis, and after that, he just referred to the encephalopathy as though it were something he believed and accepted. He said at the end that he hadn't scored it, but that that wasn't the problem. Meaning that her IQ was normal, which the school had already said about five years ago. They said 98 IQ, 103 on the verbal part, whatever that means. But the first one the school did when she was five was only an IQ of 72. I said that wasn't true, but the school psychologist assured me that it was. IQ can't be changed significantly. I think it was because of the lack of the language structures in her brain, which have been repaired little by little with homeschooling, etc. I told the psychologist that he could see that she wasn't able to use much language and would not be able to provide for herself. He said yes, and if SS turned us down, I should appeal. I guess I could get a lawyer who only charged if he got her accepted by SS, and took it out of that. And I guess the psychologist would probably testify.

Susan Welch

David Weiner, What you said!

John Stone

David

I think that’s a good statement.

David Weiner

I see a lot of debate here between 2 positions on vaccination:

1) Vaccines are awful and should never be used.

2) Most of the current vaccines are awful, but there may be certain situations where a small number of vaccines might do more good than harm.

I don't want to weigh in on this issue, other than to say that I see no reason that vaccine activists have to achieve unanimity on position 1). We can and should agree to disagree here.

I think we all agree that the government vaccine program is a disaster and it has been a disaster for a very long time, if not always. This is where we ought to focus our attention.

We didn't get into this mess because individuals like Cia Parker did a lot of research and decided to utilize vaccines in a very limited manner. We got into this mess because most people did not do any research and instead blindly relied on what their doctor, their school, and their government officials told them about vaccines and the threat of infectious disease. And such people were also told that their kids needed to get their shots in order for them to be able to attend school.

If we want this nightmare to attend, we need to concentrate on ending the indoctrination and coercion surrounding vaccines, in other words the government vaccine program.

pharmster

Cia,

Thanks for posting this from the book. In my opinion what they are doing is largely guessing or conjecture. They start from the assumption that the vaccine and only the vaccine is the factor that matters and then they come up with complicated theories on why the vaccine works and everything that happens is connected to the vaccine. They shape the evidence according to their beliefs not the beliefs according to the evidence.

That's mostly theoretical. It's not hard science even though it is disguised as such.

From they way they write I would say they mostly make theoretical guesses, few of this is certain or based on conclusive evidence. Remember these are the people that still haven't figured out that vaccines cause autism. Why should they be an infallible authority?

example:

Low vaccination coverage in Europe and absence of diphtheria is proof that the vaccine works.
Low vaccination coverage in Russia and Diphtheria outbreaks is proof that the vaccine works and we need more of it.

To someone with a hammer everything looks like a nail.

Jeannette Bishop

Another great post by JB Handley:

https://jbhandleyblog.com/home/2018/5/14/savehumanity

I've just finished reading the paper by McKinlay and Mckinlay he references, and I would strongly recommend the paper or JB's post to anyone who can't get past the description "deadly diseases" now often assigned to vaccine targeted infections (that sometimes result in disease) to begin considering the disease causing effects of vaccination.

John Stone

Cia

No doubt there is going to be a backlash over "vaccine preventable diseases" - there already is of course. One issue is that though some vaccines may be effective at suppressing diseases there is not necessarily an overall benefit to health and mortality, and likely the reverse - particularly as the program expands. I tried to highlight the problem in my submission to the UK House of Commons Health and Social Care Committee inquiry into Microbial Resistance.

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/health-and-social-care-committee/antimicrobial-resistance/written/86156.pdf

One thing I didn't go into is the enormous cost. Recently, the Health committee of the European parliament rather foolishly complained that the cost of vaccinating a single child had gone up by 68 times between 2001 and 2014 (and heaven knows how much in 2018, but I would guess greater than x100) and it seems very unlikely that we have better health to show.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20180319IPR00021/health-committee-meps-warn-against-dropping-vaccination-rates

Having said all of which I am not sure pneumococcal vaccine would be a great example. In my Microbial Resistance submission I cited two papers, the Vila-Corcoles paper and the Mawson paper:

“After multivariable adjustments we found that the PCV13 vaccination did not alter significantly the risk of pneumococcal pneumonia (multivariable-adjusted hazard ratio [mHR]: 1.17; 95% CI: 0.75–1.83; p = 0.493) and all-cause death (mHR: 1.07; 95% CI: 0.97–1.18; p = 0.190), although it remained significantly associated with an increased risk of all-cause pneumonia (mHR: 1.69; 95% CI: 1.48–1.94; p < 0.001). In stratified analyses focused on middle-aged or elderly persons and immunocompromised or immunocompetent subjects, PCV13 vaccination did not appear effective either.”

"In Mawson’s small but ground-breaking vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study of home-schooled children (18) it was found that 1.2% of unvaccinated children had had pneumonia against 6.4% vaccinated, while 5.8% unvaccinated had had Otitis Media against 19.8 vaccinated."

We still have plenty of pneumonia, and we are not even going to begin to eradicate it by vaccination.

John

cia parker

Hans,

The crucial question is how common these conditions were before the Vaccine Epidemic began in 1990.

This is an article by Barbara Loe Fisher, using CDC statistics. It was written in 2004, so current prevalence is much higher now, but the basic point is that in the days when few vaccines were routinely given, these conditions were very uncommon.

https://www.nvic.org/vaccination-decisions/wakeofvaccines.aspx

Again, I don't think you have to choose all or nothing either way. It's always going to be a gamble either way you go, but it's not the case that contagious disease (or tetanus) would not be a problem in a completely unvaccinated population.

cia parker

Benedetta,

I completely agree that every dose of every vaccine is dangerous and unpredictable. The question is only which diseases are enough of a threat to the individual person in a certain place to warrant taking the chance of the vaccine. Everyone in my family has gotten many vaccines which didn't seem to cause any reaction, but it may be that they caused some damage which we didn't realize, or that the insult was cumulative and eventually we reached the straw which broke the camel's back. Or, in the case of my brother, me, and my daughter, vaccines given to young infants. I hope I haven't given the impression that I think that any vaccine is certainly going to be safe. I've separated the VPDs into two categories, the ones which I think present a real and present danger here and now, and those which usually don't. But no, I don't think any of them are certainly safe. But tetanus, diphtheria, polio, and Hib disease are not safe either.

cia parker

Eindeker,
Thank you for your explanation as to why the toxigenic diphtheria pathogens may have been reduced in prevalence. I didn't know about the parasitization.

Pfarmster,
I saw this in the Plotkin and Mortimer book, p. 53. "Of obvious concern is that this apparently high proportion of susceptible adults may offer the potential for recrudescence of outbreaks of diphtheria in adults. In this regard an important question is whether the proportion of susceptible individuals has increased in recent years, perhaps because the widespread immunization of children has resulted in a diminished circulation of toxicogenic C. diphtheria in the population and a consequent decrease in reinforcement of immunity by casual exposure to the organism. Curiously, however, a comparison of the results of current serological surveys of diphtheria antitoxin levels with those of 25 to 40 years ago provides no evidence of an increase in the proportion of nonimmune adults (granting that strict comparability among these various studies does not exist).

Nonetheless, it can be hypothesized that the reason that these low levels of immunity in adults have been associated only with small focal outbreaks of diphtheria in recent years is a form of herd immunity due to high levels of immunity in children. It has been generally accepted that 70% or more of a childhood population must be immune to diphtheria to prevent major community outbreaks, but this is an oversimplification of a more complex issue. Whether an epidemic occurs is influenced by a number of factors other than the proportion of immune and susceptible persons in the population, including the age distribution of immune and susceptible persons, the extent of mixing of individuals and subgroups in the community, and the infectivity and routes of transmission of the organism. In countries with high rates of childhood immunization against diphtheria, it may well be that epidemics do not occur among adults, up to half of whom may be susceptible, because the reservoir of disease in the childhood population has been eliminated and because the strains of C. diphtheriae circulating in the community are less apt to be toxigenic. Nonetheless, although there is disagreement, the proportions of susceptible adults is of sufficient concern that most authorities recommend maintenance of diphtheria immunity by periodic reinforcement using Td."

Hans Litten

Posted by: cia parker | August 17, 2018 at 10:27 AM

Can you also help me with my list of all the CHRONIC lifelong afflictions caused by vaccination
I reckon I might be able to make 50 you know (with your help & Eindeckers)

Alzheimers (cumulataive Vax)
Autism of course (how could I forget my first introduction to the subject matter - cumulataive Vax)
MS (HepB)
Diabetes (Pertusis)
ADHD
SIDS (flu vax ?)
SADS
Cancers (polio sv40 just for starters)
Leukemia (all formealdehyde containing vaxs)
Anorexia & Bulimia - pituitary gland damage via vax
Obesity - pituitary gland damage via vax
Allergies
Crohns
ALS
Asthma
Inferility
Deafness
Bipolar
PDD
Scoliosis

Again I am only on 19 or 20 - pathetic - but I will work on it - & you can too !

Not bad for my first effort to be fair , but i know there is a good 50 in here if its all fully broken out.

Angus Files

A lot of answers to the discussion here.From a lecture in Sweden autumn 2014 Dr Humphries

Dr. Suzanne Humphries speaks on tetanus, about the disease, how to treat the disease and how to protect from tetanus.
She goes through cases of vaccinated groups, that still developed tetanus, which shows that tetanus vaccine is not a guarantee to protect from the disease.

She also goes through the term herd immunity and how epigenetics function and could be affected by vaccination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIgomZ06FFQ&feature=youtu.be


Pharma For Prisson

MMR RIP

cia parker

Pfarmster,

Five thousand people, half of them adults in their forties, were killed by diphtheria thirty years ago in the ex-Soviet Union. Around ten times that number were diagnosed with diphtheria. I think that means that diphtheria could come back in areas where few are vaccinated for it, and that it could once again kill many of those who got it. Again, I don't care what parents choose. We all have to look at current reality and make decisions based on it. At this time in the US and other western countries, vaccine-induced autism and autoimmune disease are much bigger problems than contagious diseases. I don't think there would be any danger in refusing the diphtheria vaccine at this time, although in the US it would mean refusing the tetanus vaccine as well, as it only comes as the DT or dT. But once the ground shifts, we have to be ready with a plan as to what to do if the dangerous diseases come back. Parents of vaccine-damaged children reproach ourselves for having permitted whatever vaccines were responsible. But we need to also imagine how we would reproach ourselves if we had a baby or small child who died because we had refused the DT or Hib vaccines. Important to remember that a number of doctors who give a reduced vaccine schedule report no autism and little autoimmune disease in their patients. It's always a gamble, but I think if an entire society chose zero vaccines for several decades, that it would quickly reverse course.

cia parker

Eindeker,

I think rtp is referring to an idea I read in several books, that removing the Hib microbe from circulation opened up an ecological niche for other meningitis germs, namely pneumococcal and meningococcal to move into. I researched it a couple of years ago and found that this phenomenon, if it occurred at all, was negligible. Pneumococcal infections have always been common, and, like the haemophilus germs, are carried by a large percentage of the population much of the time, without their causing disease. Most people develop permanent immunity through subclinical infection to all the meningitis germs by the age of five. Deaths and disability caused by pneumo infections have never been that many. Meningo infections are extremely serious, often deadly or requiring amputation of a limb, but have fortunately never been common, while the vaccine is very dangerous.

I don't care what parents choose. In my opinion, Hib disease was both common enough and dangerous enough that I could see a parent of a child in daycare choosing it. Again in my opinion, I think the dangers of Prevnar are common enough, the death and disability uncommon enough, that I wouldn't get it or recommend the vaccine.

And whimsical is not the term I would choose either.

Benedetta

CIA Parker:
Good luck with the SSI. I think it all depends on what state you live it of how easy or hard it is to get it. Difficult hoops to jump through, takes a great deal of your time, and patients.

cia parker

Laura,

What is your advice for parents if and when the most dangerous contagious or infectious (tetanus and pneumonia are infectious without being contagious) diseases return in the absence of vaccination? Just good nutrition?

cia parker

Pfarmster,

But the danger from diphtheria and tetanus is from the damage done by the toxins they produce, not from the bacteria themselves. So producing antibodies to the toxins is really all you need. Also true that antibodies don't always mean protection from anything, and the absence of antibodies doesn't always mean lack of protection. Pertussis is also a toxin-mediated disease, but since it's no longer dangerous except for a few of the youngest newborns, I'd just say shelter newborns at home, give them the nosode, and treat with vitamin C if it occurs despite precautions. Diphtheria and tetanus, on the other hand, still have a high death rate when they occur, an average of 10% from diphtheria and 30% from tetanus.

But the fact is that in countries with diphtheria, once the vaccine is widely given, deaths from diphtheria stop occurring. That's good enough for me.

Benedetta

CIA Parker.
I would never down play any of these diseases seriousness.

Diphtheria was first described by Hippocrates in the fifth century BC; I am sure you are right. Civilization, dirt, filth, poverty and all that was around back then too; just like perhaps ex- satellite states of the failing, Russian, socialist system were back in the 90s.


You are for the DT because you saw no immediate reaction to it as you did with the P part of the DPT. I know you think that cause I have been there as well. Mine never reacted to the MMR vaccine either at least I did not think so.

We really don't know though and that whooping cough disease is capable of some pretty scary stuff too.

And yes CIA Parker; I know I am talking to you as part of the choir, and no; I don't think you should be against all vaccines; I just think you need to rethink that there is a danger and they are not even telling us, and we are not noticing the very, very slow reactions that eventually lead to other auto immune diseases like thyroid, or diabetes.

In the Untied States today we are not facing a Diphtheria problem, but we did lose 63,000 people this year to drug overdoses. This year is not even over with either. My conclusion is that Inflammation is painful after all. My daughter works with drug addicts and they all are telling her that they hurt, and that is why they took pain medicine that they became addicted to in the first place. All the drug addicts tell the other drug addicts to just suck it up and hurt. It is better to hurt than being a drug addict.

Hans Litten

CIA &/or Eindecker

Would either of you two be able to get me up to 20 with my list on why vaccination is a complete and total abomination please ? I know we can do it if we work together !

1. Infected African Green Monkey Kidney Vero Cells Foreign animal species viruses sv40 (Maurice Hilleman)
2. Deadly Porcine (Pig) Virus called Circovirus (in highly experimental Rotavirus jab - Offit)
3. Fetal Cells from Human Abortions RNA\DNA fragments (readily recombines with a childs own stem cells Dr. Theresa Deisher)
4. Peanut Oil (the main cause of childhood severe peanut allergies)
5. Latex (some syringes are poked through latex vial stoppers, hence severe childhood latex allergies)
6. FD&C Yellow #6 aluminum lake dye (why do we need vaccines to be colorful?)
7. Squalene (main cause of auto-immune disorder) MF59 squalene Gulf War syndrome
8. Over 50 Parts Per Million of Ethyl Mercury (still found in certain flu shots & in trace amounts elsewhere – toxic and nanograms 1948 Dr Frank Engley)
9. Genetically Modified DNA from other Humans (foreign proteins cause unnatural immune reactions)
10.Polysorbate80 opens that BBB and lets the poison right in
11. Retroviruses XMRV, ME, Lyme
12.The Gatti contaminants (all sorts of foreign contaminants, Tungsten, Titanium, Zirconium, Silicon, Chlorine etc)
13. Mycoplasmas Aids ? Gardasil ? mass Sterilisation ?
14. Formaldehyde leukemia being censored with the FDA right now
15. Glyphosate contamination in vaccinations (Samsel-Seneff)
16. MSG in vaccination – as a stabilizer (An Excitotoxin Like Aspartame)
17. L-Histidine used in the maintenance of the myelin sheaths which protect the nerve cells
18. hCG in secretly laced Tetanus vaccination programs in many countries :
Kenya 2015, Phillipines 1995, Mexico 1974 , Nigeria, Mexico, Nicaragua
19. & aluminium salt adjuvants (found in the brain specimens of both autistic and alzheimer sufferers
Exley Keele Univ.)

If not ....................
Perhaps we could collaborate in trying to put these in order of highest toxicity concern to the lowest. I have no idea what is the worst or the least despicable ?
Glyphosate probably belongs high up now given the recent California Monsatan ruling.


pharmster

cia and anyone who is interested.

I looked into this further and found this:

https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/article/S1198-743X(14)64654-1/fulltext

they blamed diphtheria outbreaks in Russia on poor vaccine coverage but in 1996 even in Europe there was poor vaccine coverage due to many older adults never having been vaccinated as a child.

"So, while most children were fully protected, provided that the majority of them were properly vaccinated, about 50% of the European adult population was not, and is presently partially or totally susceptible to diphtheria."

So it is an illusion that the european population had immunity to diphtheria but the russian outbreaks were caused by poor vaccine coverage.

Thinking about this further.. look at this chart.

http://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/u77/Diphtheria_1914-2013.png

Diphtheria cases dropped dramatically within 10 years of starting the vaccine program. Cases nearly disappear. The vaccination program did however only cover children to my best knowledge. Of course a large part of the deaths and cases must have been in children but can this explain how the disease virtually disappeared when adults were never vaccinated? Were children the only reservoir for the disease?

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/esm.02.08.00127-en

I don't know about the vaccine coverage in India and Indonesia but I see 70-80% I don't know if that is children or total population?

Perhaps I am misinterpreting something but I find it hard to believe that vaccination would be the only factor here.

John Stone

Grace

I think Jesus’s reputed miracles are too unspecific, nor do we know of any method. I don’t think it is practically germane. I rather doubt rtp’s ability to go round performing miracles despite his conviction.

Sophie Scholl

End of discussion I would suggest (End_decker):


Posted by: Eindecker | August 17, 2018 at 07:21 AM

· MMR II (Merk) vaccine had 2.671 parts per billion (ppb) of glyphosate

· DTap Adacel (Sanofi Pasteur) vaccine had 0.123 ppb of glyphosate

· Influenza Fluvirin (Novaris) 0.331 ppb of glyphosate

· HepB Energix-B (Glaxo Smith Kline) 0.325 ppb of glyphosate

· Pneumonoccal Vax Polyvalent Pneumovax 23 (Merk) had 0.107 ppb of glyphosate

Grace Green

John, I find rtp's comment about Jesus and the Hebrew scriptures very interesting. From what we know, Jesus' attitude to illness was quite different from that prevailing at the time, and probably ever since. He seemed to have more concern about the state of the "patient" than germs or infections. This in my view is a better approach than that of modern medicine. I would differ from some comments in this thread in identifying the cause of the illness as neurological rather than being in the mind (which implies emotional). Doesn't this all fit with Teresa Conrick's article today?

Eindecker

Thank you John, although I would have used a slightly different term than "whimsical", but Mr or Ms RTP two final comments

1 No "doctors" didn't stopped blaming Hib and instead blamed meningococcal and pneumococcal.: the identification of the organism is a laboratory based procedure based of what is cultured (grown) from the blood or CSF of the patient, so it's a lab tech who will enter the organism into the data base, they will have no idea of the vaccine status of the patient, the sample will arrive at the lab requesting "culture & (antibiotic) sensitivity"
&
2 Why do patients infected with antibiotic resistant organisms have so much worse clinical outcomes when the “best guess” antibiotic is administered before the antibiotic sensitivity test results are available?
RTP you really do need to wake up & smell the coffee, as they say in America
Pharmster & Cia the diphtheria toxoid vaccine provides protection against the very potent diphtheria exotoxin, enabling antibiotic treatment for the skin or respiratory mucosa infections. As to why the toxigenic strains have apparently reduced in prevalence where there is good vaccine coverage it may be that these strains are at a growth disadvantage compared to the non-toxigenic strains, (they are parasitized by a virus which codes for the toxin) a similar situation occurs with antibiotic resistant bacteria where these resistant strains tend to revert to the antibiotic sensitive “wild type” form if the selective pressure of antibiotics is with removed, but that’s just my guess as a microbiologist. 80% of the “classic” diphtheria cases occur in India and Indonesia, circulating toxigenic strains occur in countries with low vaccine coverage.

John Stone

rtp

I think it is obvious your ideas on infectious disease are whimsical - obviously a critical factor with infectious disease is poor living conditions, poor nutrition, contaminated water, poor sanitation etc. I certainly object to the idea that populations burdened with all these problems could somehow be injected to good health, but it does not mean that the problem does not exist. As to Jesus, unfortunately we only have severely edited versions of what he thought about anything assembled decades after his death.

rtp

In a sense you're correct Cia it isn't vaccines per se that you are entranced by.

It's contagious disease.

Civilizations have been petrified of it - even before germ theory.

Jesus had no interest in it but the Jewish scriptures were obsessed by it.

The Black Death and Spanish Flu were both caused *entirely* by the fear of contagious disease.

The moment you are persuaded that disease can be spread you instantly lose all reason and morality. Today it's a needle full of poison but tomorrow people could be persuaded to put their hand in a blender to prevent the spread of disease.

Sophie Scholl

Posted by: Laura Hayes | August 10, 2018 at 05:51 PM

JB Handley did the same thing in another interview (& Dr Paul Thomas).

Its all part of the tactic, to fill our ranks with leaders who could deliver a soft landing if the backlash builds to a breaking point.
We are being managed in many respects.
They taxed us to poison us. If the truth breaks, the whole authority of government is gone.

And Del Bigtree and RFK are the best I have seen all along these last 10 years.

That is why I ask over and over for you to enter the political fray. Brett Wilcox too.

Sophie Scholl

Posted by: cia parker | August 16, 2018 at 05:32 PM

I am also grateful to Stanley Plotkin.
He explained to me that the CDC-EIS was & perhaps still is actually part of the US Navy.

So vaccination is very much a part of the US military .
Vaccination has absolutely nothing to do with the promotion of anyone persons health.

Vaccination has everything to do with the decline of a persons health.
& its deliberate (& you are an apologist for these genocidal policies).

pharmster

cia,5

"Second is the fact that during outbreaks of diphtheria rates of disease are negligible among immunized persons."

Many people do not appear to have good or any protection.

"Diphtheria antibody level in serum samples obtained from 270 subjects aged 4–70 was measured by in vitro seroneutralization test on Vero cells. Of the studied population, 27.8% had an antibody titre below the protective level (<0.01 IU/ml). The prevalence of susceptible subjects showed a significant age-related increase (p<0.01), with the highest value (53.8%) in the 31–40 age group."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0264410X9400051N

The vaccine makes you produce antibodies against the toxin not against the bacteria. It was never designed to prevent colonization or transmission. It's not a vaccine against infection.

" The vaccine does not confer absolute immunity, as people who receive the vaccine often are carriers of the disease but do not display symptoms (4)"
http://www.austincc.edu/microbio/2704v/cd1.htm

http://www.who.int/immunization/sage/meetings/2017/april/1_Final_report_Clarke_april3.pdf

"In the US, toxigenic diphtheria had not been found to be circulating in national surveillance data"

So my interpretation of this is. Toxigenic strains are very rare in wealthier nations today and many people are not protected against Diphtheria despite being vaccinated. That's why I would say one of the reasons why Diphtheria is so incredibly rare today is because certain strains are not circulating anymore.

So regardless of whether or not you vaccinate you are not likely to get Diphtheria today.

The question is why did the toxigenic strains disappear? Of course the vaccinators want to take credit for that and say that a vaccine that was never designed to do something other than protecting you against a toxin has magically eliminated the bad strains and if we don't vaccinate they come back.

Is this really true? Personally I have learned to be skeptical as the history of vaccination shows they love to take credit for things they didn't do and they always find a way to deceive themselves or others to make it seem that the vaccine and only the vaccine could have been responsible for any improvement seen.

Remember the WHO, the CDC and the people who are writing those books deny that vaccines can do any significant harm to the population.

A while back I spent some time trying to figure out how a toxoid vaccine could have eliminated dangerous diphtheria strains and trying to trace the claims back I did not find much other than speculation and conjecture and some correlation= causation studies.

I don't think it's impossible that the vaccine eliminates toxic strains with some poorly understood mechanism. One idea was that the bacteria produce the toxin to damage the tissues to be able to spread in the body. Other studies argued against it. Others claimed that the bacteria disappeared due to evolutionary pressure as toxin production was no longer a survival trait but all of this is speculation and no one knows why this happened. They want to believe that it was the vaccine.

Tracing back the sources I found one single 50 year old WHO study that said we introduced the vaccine in a one country and toxins strains went away. That's the only thing I found.

Is this reliable evidence?

Knowing how the WHO lies with Polio statistics I remain skeptical.

The main argument today is that toxic diphtheria strains are common in poor countries where vaccination coverage also happens to be lower therefore it must be the vaccine that is making the difference.

Of course it could also be that poverty causes disease as low vaccination coverage.

So is it really true and certain that the Diphtheria vaccine keeps the toxic strains away from us?

I have no idea.


cia parker

I think it's good to read books from both sides of the issue. I bought Vaccines by Plotkin and Mortimer several years ago, and I respect them. Their tome is massive and scholarly, packed with solid information, my edition published in 1994 before the autism epidemic began to make itself felt. I am certain that they believed that vaccines helped children avoid untimely disease, disability, and death, and that they are sincere in what they write.
P. 51: "No controlled clinical trial, acceptable by today's scientific standards, has ever been conducted for three reasons. First, given the serious nature of the disease and the clear perception of benefit first from the toxin-antitoxin combination and subsequently from the toxoid (the vaccine), its value seemed obvious to early investigators. Second, the development of surrogate approaches to assessing immunity (the Schick test and serological methods) made such trials unnecessary. Third, the early appearance of strong presumptive evidence that the toxin-antitoxin preparation and the toxoid were effective made such trials unethical.

In spite of the lack of a controlled clinical trial, ample evidence exists that diphtheria toxoid prevents clinical disease in the vast majority of recipients and controls the disease from a public health standpoint. First is the nearly complete disappearance of the disease in countries in which immunization has been widely employed. Second is the fact that during outbreaks of diphtheria rates of disease are negligible among immunized persons. Third, when partially, or, rarely, fully-immunized individuals acquire diphtheria , the disease is milder and complications are fewer. Fourth, a good correlation has been established between clinical protection and the presence of serum antibody in the toxin, whether resulting from disease or immunization.

There is solid circumstantial evidence, too vast to review here (although they cite many studies in footnotes), that the introduction and widespread use of diphtheria toxoid immunization in populations are associated with a remarkable decline in morbidity and mortality from the disease (more studies footnoted). These temporal trends and the near disappearance of diphtheria in developed countries are far too striking to be attributed to secular fluctuations in the disease or to better therapy."

I think that developed countries no longer have diphtheria because almost everyone has received many vaccines against it. I believe that if some unknown percentage of people stop getting it for their children, that it will come back. I am against mandates, but I think everyone should think about what they would do if they had young, unvaxxed children and they read about a diphtheria outbreak in their city that was killing unvaxxed children. Would you seek out the nosode and hope it was effective? Would you get the DT or dT shot for your children and perhaps yourselves, even though you are anti-vax? Would you hope that you could get antibiotic and vitamin C treatment for your children quickly enough to often save their lives if you decide to just take your chances, remembering that diphtheria fatalities are at least 10% even with rapid hospital treatment? Do none of these and hope for the best? Any of these options is the right of every parent, but I'm sure everyone realizes that most parents would get the vaccine for themselves and their children if diphtheria made a reappearance in developed countries.

cia parker

Rtp,

Vaccines have no emotional sway over me. What does is reading descriptions of tetanus, diphtheria, polio, and Hib disease. You do not believe that bacteria and germs can cause serious, disabling, or fatal cases of disease, and that is your right, but I do. We discussed the other day the doctors who use a reduced vaccine schedule and have had no patients with autism. When I was a child, no one had ever heard of classic autism, nor seen it, even though all children got the DPT series (same schedule as now, it's not true to say that children then only got three shots total, as I have read in several places), the polio series, and one or two smallpox vaccines. Well, in three in 10,000 children autism occurred, apparently. As I have said, I think if you waited until two years old to get the DT series, and if you had a baby in daycare less than 18 months old, it WOULD be somewhat risky, but it might be a good idea to get the Hib series anyway starting at four months old, because while the vaccine is dangerous, Hib disease is MORE dangerous, and ever possible if the child is exposed to a lot of people. Polio if it comes back here. And no more. That is MY version of a reduced vaccine schedule, and I think it would also result in few or no cases of autism. Or get the nosodes, especially for pertussis, Hib, and pneumococcal meningitis. I like the nosode option better, but would like to see large-scale testing done with each of the nosodes. It is not accurate to say I like any vaccines or have a soft spot for them, or am emotionally attached to them. It's more that I am horrified at the images of the suffering and death of children from these diseases.

cia parker

Pharmster,
I looked it up last night in Plotkin and Mortimer's Vaccines, second edition. P. 50. "Specifically, a strain of C. Diphtheriae that is known to produce large amounts of toxin is grown in a liquid medium conducive to toxin production." Anything injected will produce antibodies: it sounds as though the vaccine would produce antibodies to that strain of diphtheria AND to the toxins it produces. There is a lot of other information in that chapter as to why they believe that it has been shown to be very effective in preventing serious cases of diphtheria, but I've got to get ready for an SSI doctor's appointment to determine if my daughter will get SSI. I know that vaccines cause autism. I wish to God she had never gotten the hep-B vaccine at birth which I had said I didn't want her to get as I had read it often caused autism. And they did it anyway and she reacted with encephalitis and autism. The DTaP at 18 months old erased her only words, encephalitis again. I believe that if she had only gotten the DT after two years old and no others, that she would be normal and healthy today and preparing to go to college next year. I am not pro-vax. But it is also true that I don't want my daughter to be disabled or killed by a contagious or infectious disease. I think you have to research it and try to find a path which you have reason to believe will very likely protect against both eventualities.

rtp

Greg and that's what makes me different.

I never had this feeling. In 30 seconds I went from "vaccines are good because germ theory is good" to "vaccines are bad because germ theory is wrong".

The moment I put 30 seconds thought into it I was instantly 100% certain no vaccine could possibly work.

Which is why people like Cia frustrate me. Vaccines never had any emotional sway over me. But clearly they do over so many - including people often labelled as anti vaxers.

Sophie Scholl

Fahrenheit 451 (Infowars)
2018 ‧ Drama/Science fiction film ‧ 1h 41m

In a future society where books are banned and burned, a fireman begins to read in secret and discovers an underground rebellion committed to protecting literature.
Initial release: 19 May 2018 (USA)

Sophie Scholl

Pharma is plotting and planning the whole time.

The ringleaders know the magnitude of their crime (Plotkin-Offit).

Their plans involve various strategies driven by the education of the masses on vaccination.

1. Force vaccination through law on everyone and exterminate the 95% (Turnbulls - now Israel too)
2. Plan an exit strategy in the event the resistance becomes too strong (a soft landing) - it never happened that way, it was all a tragic accident, manage the narrative.
3. African clearances & the theft of the land\resources (& everyone else too by the looks of it)
4. Lockdown of the internet (to stop the spread of the education - burning of the books 1939-45)

And then there is my plan

1. A hard landing, where those responsible for this CAH are held accountable in their lifetimes (not in history books) - and where their families name is sullied for their crimes.
2. Show trials , Nuremberg style but nobody gets off lightly this time.

Laura Hayes - please try to go into politics. Please find a way.

pharmster

cia,

"don't agree with your premises. The vaccine used prevents the toxin-producing strain of diphtheria."

Does it protect you from the toxin or does it prevent the toxin-producing strain?
There is a difference between these two.

Greg

Thanks everyone for making your positions clear on vaccine mandates. I am heartened that the consensus at a minium is the attitude that it's an abomination for government to dictate what medicine we can or cannot put in our or our kids' bodies. Yes, I fully agree that governments should get out of the business of recommending vaccines. David, I agree wholeheartedly wth you -- let vaccines prove their mettle in a free market system, where just like any other product they're not shielded by any special liability waivers. Let's face it, if vaccines cannot survive in a free market system, this is the ultimate measure of their worth, and not any personal endearment that may be held for them.

Laura, your position that there should be a moratorium on vaccines, and take that no other product would be permitted to cause such carnage has caused me some unsettledness. The truth is, I fully agree with you, but I am still tepid about calling for an outright ban on vaccines. Even worse - I dont"t know why!

I remember attending a screening of Vaxxed in my city, and listening to the discussion after as Andrew Wakefield went over the demands they were making of the Government and CDC. As he spoke, Andrew rather chagrimly stopped himself and asked why does it feel weird, even sacrilegious to question vaccines in such ways. The audience would acknowledge his feelings. It was quite a revealing experience that taught me even Andy is swayed by the power of the vaccination faith.

cia parker

Pharmster,

don't agree with your premises. The vaccine used prevents the toxin-producing strain of diphtheria. No case of diphtheria has been reported in the US for many years because nearly everyone has received many doses of the vaccine, and it has been enough to keep the disease from reappearing. There is disagreement about whether the epidemic in Russia was caused by the vaccine which everyone had gotten wearing off or not. Clearly the hunger, cold, and social breakdown were contributing factors. But a massive vaccination campaign stopped the occurrence of diphtheria there.

Wendy Lydall's charts on disease incidence from the UK government tables show that in 1900 there were 9,000 deaths from diphtheria in the UK. 1870 was the peak for pertussis, 18,000 deaths from it in the UK that year. The peak for scarlet fever deaths was also in 1870, 32,000 deaths. She doesn't have a chart for measles. It was Jamie Murphy in What Every Parent Should Know About Childhood Vaccines who said that diphtheria, pertussis, scarlet fever, and measles were the leading contagious diseases which killed children. I'll find the quotation later. But looking at figures like 32,000 deaths a year, 18,000 deaths a year, you can see why parents welcomed vaccines when they were introduced. (They tried a scarlet fever vaccine, several I think, but they were very dangerous and never routinely given.)

pharmster

cia,

"The diphtheria germs are ubiquitous, but there is close to no clinical diphtheria in First World countries because the vaccine blocks the effects of the toxin produced when it is contracted. If no one vaxxed, the disease would come back in the First World. "

From my understanding this is not true. We all are exposed to Diphtheria germs or carry them but they are not disease causing strains that produce toxins. The toxins strains are very rare today. So I doubt that the fact that Diphtheria is rare today is just because of the toxin blocking effect of the vaccine which probably doesn't always work.

I don't think there is much credible evidence that the vaccine keeps the toxins strains in check?

"But does anyone think that it's all right for poor children to die of diphtheria who would not have died if they lived in better socio-economic conditions?"

Who says this? This is what vaccine promoters would say. If diphtheria is endemic and the disease is worse than the vaccine why not vaccinate? We are talking about the western world here?

"It's easy to google the diphtheria epidemic in the ex-Soviet Union for further details. There is no doubt that it happened, nor that it was really diphtheria, and it killed 5,000 people."

There is no doubt that it happened but how do you know that it was caused by not vaccinating?
Seems like an assertion that one can't prove?
Many different things changed at that time. (Socio-economic breakdown)

Most of the population and many people who got it were vaccinated? How could non-vaccinating of children could have made them ill? It does not even make any sense?

" The four leading causes of deaths from contagious disease in the First World in 1900, were diphtheria, pertussis, scarlet fever, and measles."

As far as I know the leading causes were pneumonia, tuberculosis and intestinal infections which were all eliminated without vaccines.

David Weiner

I am less familiar with the situation for pet vaccines. I know that they are being harmed from vaccines, but perhaps there is justification for, say, infrequent rabies vaccination. I can't say for sure. But here too, there should be openness to other ways to protect pets. We need to make a habit of thinking outside the vaccine box, because that is the prison that we are stuck in.

cia parker

David Burd,

I don't think it's fair to say that J.B. is half-hearted. I think that, like me, he is aware of the dangers of the diseases, and in the case of a disease that is possible to get in a certain area and very dangerous, then you have to consider the vaccines available to prevent it. Of course taking into consideration how effective the vaccine usually is and how dangerous, but even after you do that, you may still reasonably believe that the vaccine is less dangerous than the disease in your particular case. I don't think it's reasonable to take an all-or-nothing approach.

Greg,

It's not that I'm somewhat warm toward vaccines, but I'm looking at both sides. I'm completely against the MMR, Prevnar, meningococcal vaccines, hep-A, varicella, rotavirus, HPV, hep-B for healthy children, the pertussis vaccine, and the flu vaccine. And I recognize that there are a certain number of people, even many, people, who get and die of these diseases. Doesn't that make me somewhat cold toward vaccines? I have given my reasons for being cautiously in favor of the DT series after two, the Hib vaccine for babies between four and eighteen months old who are in daycare, and the polio vaccine only if it comes back. I think it would be irresponsible to not consider in the case of those very dangerous diseases that vaccines are a usually effective way to prevent them, even though they do have dangers.

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