The Slow Moving Catastrophe of Behavior, Learning and Mental Health Problems in Kids
Today 4:00pm Eastern Dr. Paul Thomas Talks Health on the Pat Miller Show

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David Weiner

Cia,

I would say that most if not all vaccination in the current environment IS a crime, because there is no real informed consent. Under these circumstances, it should be considered fraudulent and medical assault, both of which are crimes.

If there were true informed consent, then I do not think that vaccination would be a criminal act, but I think that there would be little compliance either. I don't think we will ever get reliable and complete information on vaccines as long as governments consider it their job to promote vaccination.

cia parker

I'm still troubled about vaccine mandates for daycare. I'm against mandates. But what happens if a year-old baby is in daycare, unvaxxed, comes down with Hib disease, and three other children in his group get Hib disease the following week, and two of them die of it? I'm still thinking about what my position is or should be. What if it were proven by the time frame and the analysis of the bacterium involved that Unvaxxed Child A definitely gave Hib disease to the other children because he was unvaxxed? What if the children who got it and died were only six weeks old and couldn't have gotten the vaccine, even if it might have protected them at that young age? I'm not sure it could, but I'm sure you can see my point. I'm conflicted. Again, I'm against mandates, but what happens when parental choice causes the death of others? You might say That's life, and Parents should do everything possible to keep their children out of daycare, and if daycare causes illness, then that was only to be expected. I'm still thinking about it. Would different rooms for young babies, vaxxed children, and for unvaxxed children be appropriate? Masks and gloves when advisable?

Laura Hayes

Below is a comment I just posted elsewhere. Seems relevant to the discussion here:

"Questions to consider and ask oneself:

How many more billions of people must be injured and killed by vaccines until you are willing to say no more vaccines (or at a bare minimum, to demand no more vaccine mandates)?

How many more years do you want to be fighting for unfettered medical choice freedom, a battle which will always exist in the presence of vaccine mandates?

How many of your children and grandchildren, not to mention yourselves, do you want to be excluded from participation in society, detained, imprisoned, and have children removed from your/their care (then vaccinated) for vaccine refusal before you are ready to demand a forever ban on vaccine mandates, followed by a moratorium on vaccines, since not one has ever been approved properly or ethically?

If this were anything other than vaccines (e.g. tainted food, faulty tires, carcinogenic herbicide, dangerous crib, sex trafficker, child molester, serial killer, etc.), would your stance be guarded to the point of not eliminating the danger, and/or to not banning the mandate that you be subject to the danger?

Laura"

cia parker

David Weiner,

I agree that government should not be involved in mandating vaccines. And I'm in favor of independent testing of vaccine safety. But the problem would still remain that vaccines are by their very nature dangerous, and that problem could never be completely overcome. But I think parents should be able to get them if they want them. I'm not sure what to say if the parent wants a vaccine that some feel could be made safer than it is, if reasonable people could differ in their opinion. I, for instance, would take the DT vaccine which is on offer if I were raising a young child. I think it is safe enough for me, even though it has aluminum, etc. I would just be careful to not get the whole range of recommended vaccines. I do recognize that aluminum in vaccines is dangerous, but, in my opinion, diphtheria and tetanus are usually MORE dangerous.

As far as I know, the only preventives are vaccines and homeopathic nosodes, which ARE very effective, and this persecution of homeopathy should stop and its merits publicized. I am completely in favor of herbs, vitamins, and homeopathic remedies being used as treatment, and antibiotics in the case of a serious bacterial infection.

Rtp,
I don't think we are even speaking the same language. I'll just have to say that I don't think that a rash behind the elbows or knees obviously means that the child wants someone to hug him.

Laura Hayes

Greg,

To clarify my position, I am vehemently opposed to vaccine mandates. They violate fundamental human rights, they violate parental rights, they cannot exist in a free society, they destroy the corrective actions of a free market, they make informed consent and the practice of ethical medicine impossible, and they ensure bribery and corruption. Most importantly, the banning of vaccine mandates is the only sure way an individual can protect oneself, and one's children, from the known, and unknown, dangers of vaccines.

In addition to the banning of vaccine mandates (and all medical mandates), I support the immediate and full return of individual and parental rights with regard to medical decision making, without government interference, coercion, cost, or penalty. I also support the immediate repeal of the 1986 Act, and an immediate return of liability to its rightful owners, i.e. those who manufacture and administer vaccines (and we might be wise to add those who regulate them).

Lastly, I support an immediate moratorium on each and every vaccine as not one has come to market properly or ethically. As I have said before, permitting vaccines to remain on the market and in use is no different than it would be to continue to permit:

- Pintos that explode upon impact 
- Thalidomide for pregnant women which causes severe birth defects and miscarriages 
- Lead-laden water in Flint, MI which causes brain damage to those who consume it

At this point in time, vaccines have no right to be on the menu of choices. Period. Until a moratorium on vaccines is instituted, an immediate, and forever, ban on vaccine mandates is the only way one can maintain the ability to protect oneself and one's children from vaccine-induced harm and death.

cia parker

Greg,

I am against forced vaccination. Regarding babies over four months old in daycare who have not gotten the Hib vaccine, I guess there are several options. The first and mandatory requirement would be educating parents on the facts about Hib disease and the vaccine, with information as complete and up-to-date as possible. And then require separate facilities, maybe just separate rooms, for babies in daycare between four and eighteen months old whose parents refused one or more vaccines recommended for daycare. Certainly separate facilities or temporarily barring from daycare children with any symptoms of respiratory disease. That would be fine with me, as long as everyone were aware of all the facts known. For older children I'm against all mandates. Tetanus is not contagious, so lack of vaccination would only affect that person.

I'll be interested in seeing whether or not Laura and David would be in favor of making all vaccination a crime. Even if polio or diphtheria, or Hib disease, comes back? For pets as well? No more rabies or distemper vaccines? Yes, overvaccination of pets is a serious and deadly problem, but minimal vaccination of puppies and kittens I think is a good idea. Rabies and distemper (and parvo) are extremely serious diseases, and they are nearly always successfully prevented by vaccines.

Pharmster,

I said the other day that diphtheria came back in the collapse of the Soviet Union largely because of the poverty and misery at that time: hunger, cold, homelessness, and alcoholism are what I mentioned. So I certainly recognize that socio-economic factors were significant. Doubtless in the Indian tribe which had every male baby under two years old die of diphtheria that I mentioned: I was shocked at the poverty on the Indian reservations which I visited with my father. But does anyone think that it's all right for poor children to die of diphtheria who would not have died if they lived in better socio-economic conditions? Will the time ever come when no one has a baby anywhere in the world unless they are well-off financially?

One of my favorite authors on vaccines, Wendy Lydall, in Raising a Vaccine-Free Child, on p. 69 gives a chart with deaths in the UK from diphtheria from 1866 to 1954, with a mark showing where the diphtheria vaccine was introduced in 1940 (it was introduced in the US in the '20s). There were 3,000 deaths from diphtheria in 1866, going up rapidly to peak at 9,000 a year between 1890 and 1902. And then it plummeted, even though there was no vaccine yet. About 3,500 a year in the late '30s. 2,500 a year in 1940 (2,480 deaths reported in the UK in 1940), when the diphtheria vaccine was introduced. Then plummeting to close to zero by 1954, by which time the universal use of the DPT almost wiped it out.

Lydall believes that the drop was due to the natural life cycle of the pathogen more than to the vaccine. She says, p. 69,: "The idea that nutrition and hygiene made diphtheria decline is also without foundation. A look at the history of infectious diseases shows that nutrition and hygiene are irrelevant to the coming and going of germs. A hygienic lifestyle protects from waterborne diseases like cholera and typhoid, but it offers no protection against an airborne disease like diphtheria. Being malnourished does make a person more susceptible to a germ if the germ comes along, but what a person eats and how much each person eats, does not make germs enter or leave the environment.

"If the hygienists are correct, then the rise of diphtheria in Britain during the last century would have been caused by poverty and unsanitary living conditions. Living conditions in the cities had been very bad from the time of the industrial revolution, and the importation of wheat from North America caused more country folk to become destitute and to head for the cities. So there was a rise in the number of severely malnourished and poorly housed people during the last part of the 19th century. Before declaring that this was the reason why the incidence of diphtheria rose at that time, we should ask ourselves why deaths from whooping cough (pertussis) and from scarlet fever were dropping sharply at the same time. Sometimes there is a coincidental correlation between the rise and fall of airborne infectious diseases and the worsening or improvement of human living conditions, but overall there is no correlation."

I agree with Wendy partially, but not entirely. Pertussis cases peak worldwide about every three and a half years, give or take. It's just the nature of the disease. Interesting that deaths from scarlet fever and pertussis were plummeting at the same time that diphtheria deaths were increasing. But it's also true that mortality is much more common when poorly-housed, malnourished people contract the disease when it's in the environment. And Wendy recognized that malnutrition plays a role in the outcome. The diphtheria germs are ubiquitous, but there is close to no clinical diphtheria in First World countries because the vaccine blocks the effects of the toxin produced when it is contracted. If no one vaxxed, the disease would come back in the First World. Parents should be free to take or reject the DT series (after two years old, unless there is a diphtheria outbreak in the area). They might say that their child is so well-nourished and healthy that they're sure he could come through a case of diphtheria all right, and they might or might not be right. Their choice, but they own the outcome, whichever it is.

Benedetta,

I just googled the history of diphtheria as a disease, and found this: " Diphtheria was first described by Hippocrates in the fifth century BC, and throughout history diphtheria has been a leading cause of death, primarily among children. The diphtheria bacterium was first identified in the 1880s by F. Loeffler, and the antitoxin against diphtheria was later developed in the 1890s. The development of the first diphtheria toxoid vaccine occurred in the 1920s, and its subsequent widespread use led to a dramatic decrease of diphtheria worldwide.
Though the implementation of vaccination programs has significantly decreased the incidence of diphtheria, serious outbreaks may still occur when vaccination rates wane. One such outbreak occurred in the 1990s in the Russian Federation and the Newly Independent States of the former Soviet Union, in which the World Health Organization (WHO) reported more than 157,000 cases and 5,000 deaths. Though still endemic in many parts of the world, respiratory diphtheria in the United States is currently a rare disease that has largely been eliminated through effective vaccination programs. "
https://www.emedicinehealth.com/diphtheria/article_em.htm#diphtheria_facts

Diphtheria was a leading cause of death, especially among children, for at least 2,500 years. While toxins in the environment are not good for anyone, I don't think they are the cause of diphtheria outbreaks. The four leading causes of deaths from contagious disease in the First World in 1900, were diphtheria, pertussis, scarlet fever, and measles. Pertussis and measles evolved independently to become a lot less contagious. Scarlet fever also became attenuated, the related disease strep throat is still common, but scarlet fever is not in the US at this time. It has reappeared in the UK, though, and Mike Stevens son had it last year. Diphtheria has been controlled, largely by the vaccine. Again, parents should be free to take or refuse the vaccine, but they should be aware of what a dangerous, often disabling or fatal, disease it is even now.

David Burd,

Eindeker was right when he said that at its peak in the '80s, Hib disease killed 900 people a year. I had read about 1,000 a year. Are you saying that you believe that aluminum in the Hib and other vaccines is causing comparable rates of death and disability, so that the deaths of 900 babies a year is acceptable? I agree that it is very dangerous, and we are drinking Fiji water and taking magnesium malate and glycine to try to chelate it out. I'm not saying that aluminum in vaccines is safe. But I also believe that if a baby in daycare got only the Hib vaccine series after four months old (not needed after eighteen months old), that in most cases he could handle the vaccine all right and also not contract a clinical case of Hib disease. I don't recommend any other vaccines for infants, only the DT series after two years old, and the polio series only if it comes back here.

Rtp,
Dr. Thomas said: "In 2014 there were 28,000 cases of invasive pneumococcal disease a year in the US, with just under 2,000 of them in children under five." He adds that when babies and small children get a serious case of this disease, it's often done severe damage by the time the parent gets them to a doctor.
"Before routine use of pneumococcal conjugate vaccine, the burden of pneumococcal disease among children younger than 5 years of age was significant. An estimated 17,000 cases of invasive disease occurred each year, of which 13,000 were bacteremia without a known site of infection and about 700 were meningitis. An estimated 200 children died every year as a result of invasive pneumococcal disease. Although not considered invasive disease, an estimated 5 million cases of acute otitis media occured each year among children younger than 5 years of age."

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pneumo.html

So yes, pneumococcal disease can be severe, even deadly. But it has not replaced Hib disease in terms of deadliness: in 2014 there were about 200 deaths a year from it, in contrast to 1,000 deaths from Hib disease. In my opinion, that might warrant the Hib vaccine, but not Prevnar, but that's just my personal judgment.

Same with meningococcal disease: " It is estimated that, annually, there are between 150 and 300 meningococcal deaths in the U.S.,7 with an average of 16 babies under age 12 months dying from the disease8 Children under age two are less likely to die from meningococcal infection compared to older age groups.9"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360272/

It's easy to google the diphtheria epidemic in the ex-Soviet Union for further details. There is no doubt that it happened, nor that it was really diphtheria, and it killed 5,000 people.

David Weiner

Greg,

My position is that our governments should not play any role whatsoever in relation to vaccines, other than allowing plaintiffs to sue for liability in the court system.

Just because I say, for example, that there should be no vaccine schedule, does not necessarily mean that no vaccines should be on the market. If one or more of them can obtain private certification and can be safe enough that their liability insurance is not so expensive as to make the vaccine cost prohibitive, then they should be available for use. Needless to say, FDA licensing has been completely inadequate and should not have any bearing on the availability of vaccines.

There should be a free market in approaches for protecting against serious harm from infectious diseases. ALL (current and future) approaches should be allowed to openly compete with one another. More than anything, we need to rid of ourselves of the numerous government monopolies here which have wreaked so much havoc.

I have laid out my position in more detail in this article.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2018/02/vaccine-dissidents-what-should-our-long-term-goals-be.html

Greg

Cia, rtp, Laura, David, and others, if I could assist this discussion, I think what needs to be clarifiedis not how effective or useless we feel vaccines are, but our stance on their recommendation. We might find that we disagree on how safe and effective they are, but agree on how they should be pushed or not pushed.


Cia, as an antivaxxer who is still somewhat warm to vaccines, are you still open to government commendation programs, but with the choice of opting out via obtaining exemptions? For antivaxxers who see vaccines for the most part as dangerous and ineffective, but, nevertheless, entertain the possibility than on occasions they may serve a purpose, are you calling for the maintenance of a vaccination program, but one that you opt into to? Finally, for the true harcores such as David and Laura, are you in favour of abolishing the vaccination program entirely , to the extent we make it a crime to take vaccines, much like illicit drugs?

pharmster

cia, I am not against protecting children from infectious diseases using vaccinations but I wonder how reliable the statistics that you present are?

Vaccination statistics are often very deceptive and misleading.

Virtually no one dies from Tetanus anymore and there must be a significant number of people that are not vaccinated against it so that must mean that today Tetanus is very rare even among the unvaccinated. Tetanus cases must have declined for reasons that are not just related to the vaccine.

Your diphtheria example in the soviet union does not make any sense to me. It was not a controlled experiment. How do we know that no other factors (socio-economic breakdown) caused it?

You said that many middle-aged were affected, that should have been vaccinated so that does not make any sense that it was just due to not vaccinating.

You said that the Polio vaccine wiped out Polio but they tried to repeat that experiment in India and it appears that the number of children getting paralyzed from a disease identical to Polio and dying is now higher than ever. It seems more like they have renamed paralysis cases they have certainly not wiped out anything.

Regarding the Hib, did the total number of cases dying due to Meningitis(of any cause) decline more than you would expect from improved medical care?

One thing to keep in mind is that doctors always introduce bias because they refuse to diagnose disease in the vaccinated and will always assume that it is caused by the disease a person was not vaccinated for. This leads to diseases being renamed while the health outcomes remain the same and you get very misleading statistics.


pharmster

we have the same number of meningitis cases as before. Doesn't look like the vaccines saved us from meningitis?

http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/i/msnbc/Components/Art/HEALTH/050526/Chart_Meningitis1.gif

Any thoughts on this?

Hans Litten

Posted by: cia parker | August 14, 2018 at 04:21 PM

On the latest Bigtree episode there was a discussion on food additives classified as GRAS
Generally Recognised As Safe

I propose a new acronym for vaccines.
Vaccines are G.R.E.A.T

Generally Recognised Everywhere As TOXIC

Benedetta

CIA Parker, I know you think you are thinking this through; Lordy knows it took me long enough to come around to what I think and by the time I did it was a staggering 27 years.

First of all it is all about the environment and not so much about the pathogen.
Is that a fair statement?

We had a virus infect the diphtheria bacteria and gave it extra genes to produce the toxin that causes the leathery covering over the wind pipe of humans in spades, making it far more deadly than it was normally. Where did that virus come from? When did this disease become such a killer? Was it during a time when horses and manure filled the streets?

Are you living in some slum, with trash heaped up in the near by river that is used for bathing, sewer, drinking and washing laundry, or in the suburbs with hydrogen peroxide, and antibiotics.

The main point; The point that you all miss, all the time; drum roll here: that vaccines are being manufactured by companies that don't have to worry one bit about the safety of their product. You think they care? You think they wouldn't throw in as much aluminum to set your immune system and brain on fire and destroy your life. Who do you think made the flu shot a yearly - that is every year mandated for little kids and it has mercury in it?

My gosh they can't even be trusted to make motrin and Tylenol.

https://cherryhill.legalexaminer.com/health/fda-prescription-drugs/fda-found-tylenol-factory-to-be-filthy-and-contaminated/

rtp

"Before the introduction of the Hib vaccine, about 20,000 children in the United States under 5 years old contracted Hib disease each year, and about 3%–6% of them died. Since the use of the Hib vaccine began, the number of cases of invasive Hib disease has decreased by more than 99%."

That's because doctors stopped blaming Hib and instead blamed meningococcal and pneumococcal.

In fact, rates of invasive diseases in Australia have almost doubled since the Hib vaccine.

The vaccine is useless and dangerous.

Like all vaccines.

rtp

“Every virus is different. The immune system knows how to best expel the particular one from the body.”

This gets better and better.

“Cold and flu germs are mainly expelled in mucus and coughed out or blown out of the nose.”

Oh are they now?

“Other viruses are expelled through vomiting or diarrhea. Others pushed out through the skin in a rash. Many by several of these routes. Rashes are caused by the mind? Your evidence for that?”

I already told you. If they were caused by your processes then rashes would be distributed randomly (evenly) around the body. Why would a rash present behind the knees and inside the elbows (as they do for some patients)?

Clearly the issue is that the child misses embracing the loved one (probably a parent).

“Stress in itself doesn't cause rashes, but it weakens the immune system so that different pathogens can become active and cause symptoms such as rashes.”

Oh yes thanks for bringing this up.

You see, the germ theory is a mathematical impossibility. Let’s say that most of the time our immune system is powerful enough to hold all the outside pathogens at bay, well what happens when one pathogen is able to evade the immune system enough to make us sick?

Well clearly that means that our immune system is already weakened and the number of pathogens in our body is greater.

As the number of pathogens continues to increase, the immune system is increasingly exhausted.

But it wasn’t strong enough to prevent the initial infection (when the no of pathogens was less and the immune system was at full capacity) so clearly it has no hope of fighting off the infection now – when there are more pathogens and less immune system capability.

Therefore, recovery is literally impossible. And that is just from that pathogen alone – of course in reality our immune system would be susceptible to all the other pathogens that it had been keeping at bay.

So again, germ theory is a mathematical impossibility.

“I got eczema for the first time in 2009 when I was under stress, an itchy red patch on my wrist. Eczema can be an autoimmune disease, often triggered by vaccines, but it involves a mistaken identification by the immune system of its own systems as a foreign pathogen. Not caused by the mind, but the stress involved weakens the immune system so that it can appear.”

You’ve convinced me. Rashes are definitely not caused by trauma because you once had a rash that was definitely caused by trauma.

“The vast majority of children now do not get either chickenpox or impetigo”

Impetigo is not a notifiable disease so I have no idea how you think you know it hardly ever happens. We literally have zero data on it.

“With chickenpox the entire body is covered with bumps for at least a week, in my daughter's case two.”

No it isn’t.

It is very different for different people.

“And it's nearly always only once in life.”

Even if that were remotely true and not just a self-fulfilling prophecy it still wouldn’t provide evidence of immunity. Most people don’t break their femurs more than once – it doesn’t follow they have immunity.

“Shingled is more localized. My friend had classic shingles, a line of lesions around half of her waist, herpes zoster (zoster means belt).”

Yes. More proof that rashes are caused by the mind. How on earth does your shingles virus know right from left?

It doesn’t of course. Viruses cannot possibly cause such a thing.

Do you know something that does have a right and left?

The human mind.

“I had impetigo when I was nine, a large lesion on my face that lasted several weeks. It was nothing at all like chickenpox.”

I love how you think that every single chickenpox diagnosis in history has presented exactly the same way as every other.

Hint: they don’t. Not even close.

“They have identified the chickenpox virus,”

You seem to think that peering down a microscope and seeing some piece of biological detritus is the equivalent of proving that the virus causes the disease.

It isn’t.

“and they know that once contracted it stays in the body for life, usually stored at the base of the spinal column.”

You do realise that this simply proves that there is no such thing as immunity don’t you? If viruses “infect” us persistently then we clearly never fight them off and we therefore never learn how to fight them off. Indeed, the whole idea of immunity becomes obsolete (and infection too for that matter).

“I simply don't agree with you.”

I can see that.

“Your explanations do not make sense to me, while germ theory does.”

No. One is consistent with what everybody around you has always told you. It’s amazing what nonsense we can believe in when everybody else around you is doing likewise.

If germ theory actually made sense to you then you would *never* visit a doctor office.

“Is your theory for bubonic plague the same, that the fleas on rats didn't really carry it and disseminate it, that millions of people in Europe all got it around the same time as it spread from town to town, killing thousands everywhere it went?”

People were scared of contagious disease (it was a military trick). There was no contagious disease but the fear was very real. They whipped people, they starved people, they gave them glass to eat, they rubbed faeces into their wounds, they lived in sewers, they burnt people.

The sum total of all that was tens of millions of dead people.

The sum total of people who died from a bacteria was zero.

The characteristic symptoms of bubonic plague were nothing more than leprosy which had always been around (and became smallpox) and, as I said, there was a military strategy to get people to believe it was contagious.

It worked.

Too well.

All of this was exacerbated because at the same time there was a mini Ice Age and many people would have died from famine anyway.

Did people have sores? Sure. Some. Not all. Did any of them die because of bacteria? No. Well, other than people who died from sepsis from having faeces smeared into their wounds.

“During the Spanish flu many towns put up signs preventing ANYONE from entering the town, and doing that kept the flu from infecting anyone in those communities.”

If the isolation included being away from doctors and their vaccines and treatments it would have been an excellent way of avoiding the disease.

rtp

I'm shocked Eindecker!

Shocked I tells ya that your entire post was either appeals to authority or poisoning the well.

Sorry. My mistake. You also said this:

"Oh yes doctors’ surgeries can be dangerous places for the unvaccinated as the unfortunate parents of a German baby who contracted measles (too young to have been vaccinated) from an unvaccinated child taken to the clinic with measles, tragically the baby died of measles."

What a remarkable comment. Unvaccinated babies are supposed to visit doctors all the time to get their shots. So here you are admitting that such a behaviour is extremely dangerous and should never be done!

At any rate, you have no evidence that the child a) caught measles from the unvaxed child; or b) died from measles.

Wild guess don't count as evidence by the way.

Now, do you have any *actual* arguments as to why your precious germ theory is valid?

In particular, please provide an explanation as to why anybody would visit - let alone become - a doctor if germs were so dangerous.

cia parker

Eindeker is right. It is important to not turn our backs on those who were disabled or killed by the diseases: they were precious human lives as much as our vaccine-damaged children are. Even though it makes the choice harder, justice and wisdom demand that we give credit where credit is due. Hib disease wasn't a big problem before the DPT vaccine suppressed immune function from 1948 on. Antibiotics were successful in treating it when it occurred with increasing frequency until it had quadrupled in incidence in 1968 from what it had been in 1940. Then antibiotics became less effective, until by the mid-'80s, Hib disease (not just meningitis) had become a very great problem, and one in a thousand babies was dying of it, many of the others with Hib disease "only" getting deafness or mental disability on recovering from the disease. Then the vaccine came into general use, and the disease almost completely disappeared in just a few years. It was a triumph of modern medicine. And YES it has caused the modern peanut allergy epidemic, but when I looked it up, it was a tiny number dying of peanut allergy compared to the number who used to die from Hib disease. Of COURSE parents should be able to take it or refuse it, but I think it's reasonable to require it for daycare under the circumstances. I would NOT get it for my daughter if I had it to do over again (as it was I allowed three, but refused the fourth), but she was breastfed and cared for at home, not in daycare.

Dr. Sears says in the second edition of The Vaccine Book, p. 5: "Before the vaccine came into use in the mid-1980s, there were about 20,000 cases of serious Hib infections each year in the US. Now we have only about 25 cases each year, almost all occurring in children under age five and most in the first two years." That's a LOT of serious cases of a very serious disease, with 10% fatality, 25% deafness and 25% mental disability. In the book Whole Child, Healthy Child, Dr. Russ Greenfield says, p. 25: "As a young doctor training in the ER, Dr. Russ used to see many cases of bacterial meningitis, an inflammation of the brain and spinal cord, caused by Haemophilus influenza. He was shocked by how quickly this form of meningitis attacked; it could lay previously healthy children so low so fast that they suffered terrible consequences if antibiotics were not administered immediately. Thanks to the vaccine, it's now uncommon for an emergency department doctor to see Hib meningitis." Aviva Jill Romm says in Vaccinations, p. 81: "In 1984, at least 20,000 cases of invasive disease occurred in the US, with approximately 12,000 of those resulting in meningitis. (NB: the other types of Hib disease are also very serious and often fatal). These rates are the highest ever recorded. It is important to note that the disease has increased at least fourfold since 1946. This is primarily attributed to the organism's having become antibiotic-resistant. ..Neurological complications include hearing loss, language delay or problems, learning disabilities, retardation, seizure disorders, and vision problems. Other complications include pneumonia, pericarditis, abscesses, septic arthritis, cellulitis, bacteremia, and epiglottitis. Dr. Randall Neustaedter in The Vaccine Guide, p. 186, says: "The estimated incidence of Hib meningitis was about 12,000 cases per year prior to licensing of Hib vaccines., plus an additional 7,500 cases of invasive disease (heart, lungs, etc.). ..In 1995, five years after the vaccine became available for all infants, the total reported incidence of invasive disease was 1,300 cases. This 98% drop (NB: in only five years after the vaccine) has been attributed to the vaccine campaign. ..Children under six months are protected by maternal antibodies (NB: that's why I recommend the vaccine only after four months old for babies in daycare), and breastfeeding reduces incidence rates... The longer the duration of breastfeeding, the lower the risk of meningitis. The risk decreases for each additional week of breastfeeding. (Silverdal)

Dr. Thomas says in his book The Vaccine-Friendly Plan," p. 126: "Postvaccine follow-up studies have shown a 71% decrease in Hib disease in under-five-year olds from 1989 to 1991, and an 82% decrease in HIb meningitis between 1985 and 1991. The vaccine alone is believed to have prevented more than ten thousand cases of meningitis. In 2011 in the US, there were only fourteen cases of serious Hib disease s a year, and fewer than 250 non-type B or unknown types of Haemophilus influenza invasive disease respectively.

As I mentioned in the introduction, this vaccine was introduced in my training in the late 1980s, and we saw an immediate significant drop in the numbers of children with meningitis and serious Haemophilus infections like epiglottitis and sepsis. A child with suspected epiglottitis who was often drooling and unable to swallow would be rushed to the OR, where X-rays were taken and the airway stabilized by intubation. Once a weekly occurrence, epiglottitis is a condition basically unfamiliar to younger doctors who have trained since the vaccine was introduced. Had you walked the floors of Valley Medical Center or Fresno Children's Hospital before then, you would have seen several young children with severe meningitis, many of whom would not be neurologically normal if they survived the infection. These are infections of the past, a testament to a successful vaccine."

For these reasons, I think those who are against all vaccines ever, for anyone, should not deny the very high numbers of children who used to suffer and often die or be disabled by the Hib diseases. The first vaccine was introduced in the mid-'80s, but only for children over two, who were not the group most in danger. The vaccine series for infants was introduced in 1990, and it IMMEDIATELY started drastically reducing the incidence of invasive Hib disease, until in just a few years, Hib disease almost disappeared. On Dr. Sears' chart on p. 192 of numbers of those hospitalized each year as of 2010 for all the VPDs, only 25 were hospitalized with Hib disease. That is astounding.

Again, I KNOW how dangerous vaccines often are, I totally agree. But again, I think the danger is primarily from the hep-B vaccine, especially for newborns, the pertussis vaccine, the flu and MMR vaccines, and the sheer number of vaccines routinely given. Several doctors have reported NO autism in those who followed their reduced schedules. I AGREE that as few vaccines as possible should be given. But SURELY no one would want to go back to the many thousands of babies killed or disabled by Hib disease every year before the vaccine. And to avoid that, the only choices are caring for babies at home and nurse them until self-weaning, or at least 18 months at any rate, or the vaccine for those who have to be in daycare. Or the nosode, but I haven't read anything about its success rate in preventing Hib, so I can't swear to it.

david m burd

@Eindeker,

You claim before the Hib vaccine 4 1/2% (3 to 6 %) of 20,000 toddlers/kids having Hib disease die (from an age cohort of 20 million kids, the age group you cite, comprising birth to 5 years old) -- that comes to 900 deaths per year. Are you aware that the most used Hib vaccine called PedvaxHIB having neurotoxic Aluminum (Aluminum hydroxphosphate Sulfate) has most certainly caused irreparable damage to these 20 million? Clearly, you have no comprehension about the damage caused by such as the Hib vaccine.


Bayareamom

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2016/12/22/the-daily-mail-snopes-story-and-fact-checking-the-fact-checkers/#7dde5e39227f


I wouldn't be too quick to view Snopes.com as a credible source of information, given the above article's info. (and others I have found online). I REALLY tire of folks listing Snopes as some sort of holy grail re fact checking.

Lengthy article, above, but well worth the read...

Eindecker

Pharmster I suggest you read a slightly more critical view of Tetyana Obukhanych's speculation https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/harvard-study-unvaccinated-children/ it doesn't hold up to the actual evidence

but non-type-B outbreaks primarily affect older adult populations and have limited relevance to a schoolyard scenario. What is clear is that vaccination against type-B influenzae has greatly affected “the safety of public spaces.” Before the introduction of the Hib vaccine, about 20,000 children in the United States under 5 years old contracted Hib disease each year, and about 3%–6% of them died. Since the use of the Hib vaccine began, the number of cases of invasive Hib disease has decreased by more than 99%.

cia parker

Sophie,

I read the description of the book you recommended on Amazon. And I agree that every vaccine does at least some harm, often major harm, even kills or disables. Agree that the drug companies are greedy and often dishonest. BUT it's also true that most vaccines do prevent the diseases vaccinated for. BOTH are true. So the parent (or adult) has to study both sides carefully before getting any vaccine, and realize that there are no guarantees either way, but he or she still has to choose. Many thousands of people are alive today because they got the tetanus, diphtheria, Hib, or polio vaccines, which PREVENTED them from getting diseases which otherwise would have disabled or killed them. And in those cases, minor vaccine damage was worth the price of survival. It is not in my power to say whether or not different disabilities are so bad that death from VPDs would have been preferable. And I don't think many parents even think "I'd rather he DIED than develop ***." Of course you can't put your finger on them individually in most cases; you have to look at the rates of disease incidence and sequelae statistically before and after the vaccines were introduced. There are other factors to consider which we have already discussed, but that's the bottom line.

BOTH are true. Parents have to realize that and do the best they can to get the fewest number of vaccines, while trying to protect their children from the most viable threats to their life and health. But I'm not going to say that because every vaccine is dangerous to some degree (usually slight: look at everyone around you at any moment), I don't care if my child gets TETANUS or HIB DISEASE or DIPHTHERIA!, even THAT is better than getting even a single vaccine!

pharmster

cia,

according to Tetyana Obukhanych the Hib campaign success is an illusion.

https://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/category/featured-guest-blog/tetyana-obukhanych/

"the introduction of the Hib vaccine has inadvertently shifted strain dominance towards other types of H. influenzae (types a through f). These types have been causing invasive disease of high severity and increasing incidence in adults in the era of Hib vaccination of children (see appendix for the scientific study, Item #4). The general population is more vulnerable to the invasive disease now than it was prior to the start of the Hib vaccination campaign. "

Sophie Scholl

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=as_li_qf_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=You%27re+Next%3A+Lies%2C+Corruption+and+the+Dirty+Business+of+Vaccines&linkCode=g13&linkId=a5db94f3fd1765811c2d959351fc9045&imprToken=jivhTOIX7dmZDfsxeaO-dw&creativeASIN=1911240102&tag=dreamcatche04-21&creative=9325

Posted by: cia parker | August 14, 2018 at 12:26 PM

A book for you CIA ! Perhaps you could do a book review ?

Every vaccine harms - EVERY TIME

cia parker

Sophie,
Yes, I know that every vaccine does some level of damage, often quite a bit and very severe. Most vaccines protect for far longer than three years. The question is always whether the disease you're concerned about is prevalent enough in your area and serious enough to take the chance of the vaccine for it. If it is, then you have to look at how often serious adverse reactions have been reported for the vaccine, and in some cases how effective the vaccine is. And then you make your decision. I think the tetanus vaccine, or the DT (dT for those older than seven) is reasonable. Tetanus spores are always all around us. They start in the intestinal tract of many mammals, including horses, dogs, cats, gerbils, and many others, and are excreted in the poop. They remain in the soil even after the poop has decayed, and have been found even on the desktops of offices in big cities, borne by the wind. Although the greatest danger is for those who live around horses and ride horseback. Nails in themselves don't have the spores, but nails that were in horseshoes nailed to horses' feet and thrown were where the rusty nail thing came from. Gardens fertilized with non-sterile manure have it, and wounds sustained when gardening are a common source of contagion. Injuries from rose pricks in roses grown using manure. So the bottom line is that it is always possible for anyone to sustain a tetanus-prone wound, and the disease moves fast and kills quickly. The vaccine is very effective, and does not often cause a severe reaction. The disease has always been uncommon, so you could consider that, but the fact that you'd have to worry about it every time you or your child scraped a knee or got a splinter in their hand, and it is a valid fear, and the disease a very terrible, often fatal one, means that most people are going to want to take the vaccine series (after the age of two).

I've said what I think about Hib disease before. Up until the vaccine series for babies was introduced in 1990, Hib disease had reached its highest rate ever in the US. One in 200 babies was getting a serious case, and one in a thousand was dying of it. The vaccine DOES cause peanut allergy in one in fifty children, sometime diabetes, sometimes autism, sometimes other things, but the disease itself was a terrible disease, causing mental retardation in one in four who got a clinical case and deafness in another one in four. And it killed roughly one in five. It's still not an extremely high rate, but high enough for its occurrence to be conceivable and scary for every parent. The germs are everywhere, and a large percentage of people carry the germs around in their respiratory tract for long periods of time: they can infect other people while not usually harming the carrier, and most people have permanent immunity to the germ by the age of five. The question is what about the babies who actually get the disease. I'd say it has to be left up to the parent, who should know that the germs are still ubiquitous, and that one in 200 unvaxxed babies gets a serious case of it. And the parent should know that the vaccine is very effective, and wiped out Hib disease in vaxxed children within a few short years. But yes, the vaccine has dangers. Breastfeeding provides good, but not absolute, protection from it, but you'd have to breastfeed the baby for at least eighteen months, when the risk of a serious case of the disease is greatly reduced (though never down to zero).

I am not pro-pharma and I am not pro-vaccine. I am against preventable suffering which is meaningless. That means I think it is worthwhile for healthy people to suffer temporarily from a beneficial disease like measles, flu, etc., in order to get the lifelong benefits. I don't think it is worthwhile for someone to suffer horribly and die or be disabled by tetanus or diphtheria, or polio or Hib disease, when in most cases the vaccine would have prevented his disability or death. And I think if those were the only vaccines a child got, it would be very rare for him or her to have a disabling or fatal reaction. I'm for free and well-informed choice, but I think it is inhumane to be dogmatically completely for or completely against all vaccines.

cia parker

rtp,
Every virus is different. The immune system knows how to best expel the particular one from the body. Cold and flu germs are mainly expelled in mucus and coughed out or blown out of the nose. Other viruses are expelled through vomiting or diarrhea. Others pushed out through the skin in a rash. Many by several of these routes. Rashes are caused by the mind? Your evidence for that?

Stress in itself doesn't cause rashes, but it weakens the immune system so that different pathogens can become active and cause symptoms such as rashes. I got eczema for the first time in 2009 when I was under stress, an itchy red patch on my wrist. Eczema can be an autoimmune disease, often triggered by vaccines, but it involves a mistaken identification by the immune system of its own systems as a foreign pathogen. Not caused by the mind, but the stress involved weakens the immune system so that it can appear.

You are mistaken. The vast majority of children now do not get either chickenpox or impetigo, they don't get chickenpox because of the vaccine. Go take a survey. With chickenpox the entire body is covered with bumps for at least a week, in my daughter's case two. And it's nearly always only once in life. Shingled is more localized. My friend had classic shingles, a line of lesions around half of her waist, herpes zoster (zoster means belt). I had impetigo when I was nine, a large lesion on my face that lasted several weeks. It was nothing at all like chickenpox. They have identified the chickenpox virus, and they know that once contracted it stays in the body for life, usually stored at the base of the spinal column.

I simply don't agree with you. Your explanations do not make sense to me, while germ theory does. Is your theory for bubonic plague the same, that the fleas on rats didn't really carry it and disseminate it, that millions of people in Europe all got it around the same time as it spread from town to town, killing thousands everywhere it went? During the Spanish flu many towns put up signs preventing ANYONE from entering the town, and doing that kept the flu from infecting anyone in those communities. Because isolation and quarantine work, because the pathogens are real and are readily transmissible unless you block their means of spreading. Again, I simply don't agree with your theory and don't think it explains reality.

cia parker

pharmster,

This is a small Russian study which showed that the diphtheria vaccine was very effective in preventing diphtheria; it was done because some said that the Russian outbreak was because of low vaccine effectiveness. They decided that since the vaccine was very effective, over 90%, but no vaccine is 100% effective, it may have been because it had worn off over time in those who got diphtheria. So I'd say that in the US, it's not necessary at this time to take the chance of a reaction from a diphtheria vaccine, except that you can't get the tetanus vaccine without the diphtheria vaccine included. If diphtheria came back here, then most parents would want to get it for their children, and depending on how high the risk of diphtheria was, I think it would be a reasonable choice. And the massive vaccination campaigns in the ex-Soviet Union DID control the outbreak of diphtheria. OK, not the spread of the germs, but the important part, the manifestation of the diphthoidal membrane which cuts off breathing in many cases, and the toxin also often causes kidney or heart failure. So stopping those symptoms was the important thing, and the vaccine does that.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10657211

While I certainly view pro-vaccine studies with a critical eye, I think most of them are factually correct as far as that goes. This study was done before vaccines had become a major political issue and before all medical forces had circled the wagons against the vaccine-damaged.

Eindecker

Ah RTP I wondered where you’d got the germs are good for you nonsense, now it’s clear ”Germanic New Medicine” devised by one Ryke Geerd Hamer, you do know the full extent of this man’s idiocy do you?
Hamer's license to practice medicine was revoked in 1986 by a court judgment in Germany, which was reconfirmed in 2003. As he continued to treat patients, Hamer was investigated several times on allegations of malpractice and the death of patients.[4] He was jailed for 12 months in Germany from 1997 to 1998, and served a prison term from September 2004 to February 2006 in Fleury-Mérogis, France, on counts of fraud and illegal practicing. He subsequently lived in voluntary exile in Spain until March 2007, where Spanish doctors held him responsible for several tens of preventable deaths.[5]
He got into even deeper nonsense later on:
In 2008, Hamer presented a document where one "Chief Rabbi" "Esra" Iwan Götz confirmed the existence of a conspiracy among Jewish oncologists to use the "torture" of chemotherapy on all non-Jewish patients, while Jewish patients were to receive the "correct" treatment of GNM. Iwan Götz is a German holocaust denialist active in the German Reich revivalism scene who has been repeatedly convicted by German courts on counts of holocaust denial,[18] fraud, defamation, misuse of academic titles (the title "Chief Rabbi" is not legally protected in Germany), falsification of documents, among others.[
Oh yes doctors’ surgeries can be dangerous places for the unvaccinated as the unfortunate parents of a German baby who contracted measles (too young to have been vaccinated) from an unvaccinated child taken to the clinic with measles, tragically the baby died of measles.
Hamer said that his system is verifiable and that the University of Trnava and others have already confirmed some of his theories.[3] In fact, the University of Trnava has no real medical faculty and the documents which allegedly confirm his view are not available and registered at the university.[25][26] The Trnava University also rejected his habilitation thesis.[27]
The Hamer foci that Hamer saw in the brain CTs are identified by radiologists as common ring artifacts.[28][29]
The medical establishment in Germany and the European Union warns of the threat posed to patients by Hamer's therapies. If effective treatment is neglected, the applying of Hamer's theories is punishable in some countries as malpractice.[2]

So RTP do you really think anyone should take one iota of notice of this man’s stupidity?

Sophie Scholl

Posted by: Kathy Sincere | August 10, 2018 at 05:05 PM

I am 100% dedicated completely and totally anti-lies, anti-toxicity, anti-poisoning, anti-mainstream fake news, ANTI-VACCINE.

And proud of the amount of education, learning and reading that has gone into the effort to know for certain that Vaccination is the biggest crime in all history bar none.

You are not alone ! Loads of us know the truth of it.

Sophie Scholl

"When I was a child, all children got measles and chickenpox; now very few of them do, because of the vaccines."

Chickenpox is harmless - no need to ever vaccinate for it.

CIA - you cant prove that ! There is no vaccine for Scarlet fever (& its completely gone !)

Herd Immunity is a complete myth ! A pharma fairy tale.
Who do you work for ?

The Flu vaccine is 0% efficacy - complete sham - and its nearly flu vaccine season again.
I bet you don't get it ?

Tetanus is so remote a risk its plainly ridiculous to mass vaccinate for it.
The Pertusis vaccine doesn't work - even by your own admission.
The mumps vaccine was efficacy faked using rabbits blood !

Sophie Scholl

Posted by: cia parker | August 13, 2018 at 06:07 PM

CIA

Measles isn't a disease - its an infection.
Calling it a disease is all part of the SCAM

Remember - we ALL got it ! YOU TOO

rtp

“The immune system tries to expel the virus by pushing many of the viruses out through the skin.”

But then every virus would cause a rash and, again, the rash would be distributed randomly (evenly) around the body. I will say it again, the non-random patterning of rashes demonstrates that they must be caused by the mind. No other explanation is plausible.

“When C caught the chickenpox from my shingles, she first had just a few lesions on her chest and back.”

I have no idea how you think this story proves anything.

“But now she's immune to chickenpox for life”

No she isn’t. Although the doctor probably will diagnose something else because he believes they are immune (impetigo for example).

“although she might get shingles in later life when under stress.”

Strange. I thought you told me that stress/trauma can’t cause rashes.

“But that's better than chickenpox as an adult. How do you explain that chickenpox, measles, and mumps are usually much more serious when they occur in adults, if none of them are really diseases to start with?”

When did I say they weren’t diseases? And how do you know they are typically worse in adults? And even if they were, how would that prove they were caused by a virus and how would it prove there is such a thing as immunity?

“Twenty-five years ago, chickenpox was still a disease that nearly all American children got. The vaccine was introduced in 1995, and within a few years, chickenpox became a thing of the past.”

That’s because doctors started calling it impetigo instead. There are other differential diagnoses too of course. There is no valid evidence that there has been fall in the number of rashes (blistering or non-blistering) in children since the widespread use of vaccines.

“Do you think she would have had chickenpox, literally hundreds of lesions, if I had not had shingles?”

You always ignore what I say it gets really annoying.

I never said multiple people coming down with similar symptoms was a coincidence. In most cases it would be because they shared the same trauma – or in this case, it would be because your trauma (or the rash that you got from said trauma) led to her trauma (of separation). Her spots didn’t appear until after her trauma was over which only happened after you yourself got better. My guess is that her trauma is the same as for nappy rash – rather than being traumatized by being separated she is traumatized because she wanted to be separated from something (this is why chicken pox parties can sometimes “work” – even though there is no such thing as immunity to them).


“Have you noticed that no one gets chickenpox anymore?”

See above. It has been renamed because most doctors won’t dx a condition if the patient is vaccinated.

“Do you think it's just a coincidence that it disappeared within a few years of the vaccine being introduced?”

It’s not a coincidence and I have told you this many times before this – it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.

“Sort of like the disappearance of measles and Hib meningitis very soon after the vaccines started to be routinely given.”

As above. Hib is now just meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis blamed on other germs and total rates of these invasive diseases have actually increased. Measles is now called roseola, 5th disease, hand foot and mouth etc. Again, I have told you this before and, whilst you are welcome not to accept it, it is an act of bad faith to refuse to acknowledge this.

“We got her on Saturday, and I was deathly ill by that evening. Just a strange coincidence, or that I caught the virus at the store on Thursday, it had a two-day incubation period, and I had a high fever two days later? And not just me, but many people here.”

Again, this could be literally anything. It could be a shared trauma for the town, it could be a bunch of unrelated illnesses, it could be anything. It certainly isn’t proof that you all have the exact same disease which causes the exact same symptoms.

“Just a coincidence that tens of thousands of school kids in the US had that illness that fall, that some schools shut down for the duration?”

So lots of kids got sick one year with generic flu like symptoms (some more severe and some more mild) and lots of kids didn’t get sick and this proves that every single last one of them had the exact same virus that they spread to each other?

Sorry. That just doesn’t follow. Not even remotely.

“Some of them were permanently paralyzed and some died?”

Lots of people die and are paralysed each year. Are they all caused by the one contagious virus?

“Was it just a coincidence that millions of people worldwide in 1918-19 died of the Spanish flu,”

No. It was caused by vaccination and the subsequent treatment for things like smallpox, typhoid, yellow fever etc. The people who got the most sick were the ones most targeted for vaccination (especially the soldiers and young adults) and the symptoms were often described as a “cytokine storm” aka a massive immune reaction. In other words, it was because of vaccines.

Do you want to talk about Black Death too? I am more than happy to.

“and that 100% of those alive at that time subsequently had antibodies to that H1N1 flu for the rest of their lives?”


This is circular reasoning. You assume that a virus caused the Spanish Flu and you assumed it didn’t happen again because of circulating antibodies even though neither of those two things have the slightest shred of evidence to support them. But, even apart from being a fabrication, your story is internally inconsistent. If circulating antibodies protect us from the Spanish Flu happening again, why do we continue to vaccinate generation after generation for measles or polio or diphtheria?


“Ebola, dengue, chikungunya, typhoid, none of them exist as disease entities? Even though they've identified them with high-powered microscopes?”

No they haven’t. Where do you get this belief? Sorry. It’s just plain wrong. Nobody has ever shown a “virus” causing pathogenesis in vitro or in vivo. Most people don’t understand that because most people assume doctors know what they are doing, but someone who questions vaccines should be well aware of this fact. When there is an “epidemic” supposedly occurring, doctors will diagnose anything and everything as that disease even in patients that don’t have the characteristic symptoms. So ebola was supposedly a haemorrhaging disease but in the recent “epidemic” most patients didn’t have that but because they were sick (with whatever symptoms) and because they were around people who had been diagnosed with ebola, doctors said they had ebola too.

“I've read what you say in some Waldorf books, and it didn't make sense in them either. My experience of reality coincides with germ theory, and I just don't understand why the Waldorf people have gone off on that track.”

I don’t know anything about the Waldorf people. All I know is that up until German New Medicine, any alternative to the germ theory couldn’t account for the appearance of contagion or the apparent success of antibiotics. But German New Medicine can. And it explains everything else. And unlike the germ theory, it isn’t impossible in at least a dozen different ways.

cia parker

I got a lot of hits when I googled "diphtheria outbreak in the former soviet union." This is one:

https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/181/Supplement_1/S10/837378

Most cases occurred in adolescents and adults. Adults in their forties were the most likely to die; adults in their fifties were much less likely to get it or die of it. Maybe most of them had subclinical immunity? I'll have to think about what I just read. They think that the vaccine protection had waned over time, but if adolescents got it in large numbers, then it waned within ten years of their getting the childhood series. But the fact that traditionally children have been the most likely to get and die of it, and in that outbreak children didn't get it much, would seem to show that the vaccine was effective at protecting them for ten years or so. As I said earlier, most people used to be exposed to the germs and get subclinical immunity. It looks as though you need factors like cold and hunger to depress the immune system so that diphtheria causes clinical cases in large numbers. Five thousand Russians died of diphtheria in that long outbreak. Not many Australians did, maybe because their immune systems were stronger.

cia parker

Sophie Scholl,

Most vaccines usually work to prevent the diseases. For the usually mild and beneficial diseases that's a bad thing, but it's the way it is. When I was a child, all children got measles and chickenpox; now very few of them do, because of the vaccines. The tetanus vaccine was recently found to prevent tetanus for at least forty years, though they urge you to get a booster after ten years. Even in the '80s, no man who had gotten the tetanus shot before going to serve in the armed forces in WWII had ever gotten tetanus, whether or not they had kept up with boosters. The duration of protection of most vaccines varies from person to person, is usually unknown, but in some cases is for life. The flu and the pertussis vaccines are usually very ineffective, but most of them are very effective.

Herd immunity is in place here and now for several diseases like measles and diphtheria, because nearly everyone has gotten several to many doses of the vaccines for them. Bad in the case of measles, good in the case of diphtheria. I wish my daughter could have gotten measles and mumps as a child. But, as the case of the Soviet Union shows, diphtheria could come back, but if it did, as soon as the first cases occurred, most people would go out and get the vaccine for themselves and their children.

In the Soviet Union, there were underlying factors due to the collapse of the state: homelessness, cold, hunger, alcoholism. Everyone had gotten the vaccines in the past. I guess the diphtheria germs were able to take advantage of the gaps and the suffering to cause thousands to get diphtheria, and their immune systems weren't supported enough to repel it. I don't know how it was able to spread to Australia, obviously through those traveling from the Russian Federation to Australia, but I don't know how it got a purchase in Australia. I think thirty years ago everyone would have been vaccinated. Both the Russian Federation and Australia mounted widescale vaccination booster campaigns to successfully control it.

pharmster

"Diphtheria came back in the ex-Soviet Union thirty years ago, thousands of cases there with many deaths, and it spread to Australia too. They got it under control with a massive vaccination campaign."

cia i think you are relying too much on pro-vaccine sources.

How can you control a disease when you can't prevent it from spreading? The vaccines can only portect you from the effects of the disease not the germs. So if it spread from the soviet union to australia there must have been other factors involved than vaccination.

cia parker

It will be a while, but Dr. Moskowitz said that the best thing we could do for our children would be to give them natural measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox at school (only one a year). Flu is also usually beneficial, but I don't think I'd feel comfortable deliberately giving the flu. I read somewhere else that they could do it at the end of the school year in elementary school so the children could go through the illness at home, emerging with permanent immunity and a stronger immune system. I think that's a great idea, and I hope it will gain general acceptance.

Sophie Scholl

Posted by: cia parker | August 13, 2018 at 01:14 PM

CIA, it is my understanding the efficacy of any vaccine is no more than 5 years at best (3 usually).
How are we all surviving today ?
How are you avoiding diphtheria ?
Are you re-taking the diphtheria vaccine over and over ?

Vaccines don't work at all, do they ?
Vaccines are in fact a complete fairy tale aren't they ?
Every vaccine harms , every time (& you know it !)

cia parker

I meant that diphtheria and tetanus are toxin-mediated diseases, and the vaccines for them, not polio, which was just a straight virus and viral vaccine. There used to be three strains of it, but one of those strains has been wiped out, largely through vaccination.

cia parker

David,

The diphtheria vaccine was introduced in the US in the 1920s. And then mercury was added as a preservative in 1932, and it started causing autism, which Dr. Kanner started to see in the late '30s. And the antitoxin had started to be given in the 1890s, though in many cases it seemed to make the situation worse. I'd have to research it to see if the antitoxin was effective often enough to be worthwhile, or if it were more deadly than therapeutic.

The greatest number of diphtheria cases in the US was in 1921, with 206,939 reported cases. And most of those who had not had a clinical case had antibodies to it from subclinical exposure because it was like measles, pertussis, and meningitis: the germs infected everyone. I'm getting these figures from the Mothering book Vaccination: The Issue of our Times, edited by Peggy O'Mara, and Mothering was one of the early sources of information extremely critical of vaccines. At this time, mortality is still about 10% with rapid hospital care and antibiotics. But that would have been over twenty thousand deaths with the number of cases in 1921.

Dr. Moskowitz has given no vaccines in his clinic for over thirty years, but even he says that many of his parents have opted to give their children the vaccines for diphtheria, tetanus, and polio, and no others, and he thinks that is a reasonable choice, since the diseases are toxin-mediated and the vaccines are made using the toxins, not the pathogens themselves, and since the diseases are so often deadly even now, with the best of hospital care, deaths from diphtheria being about 10% and about 50% from tetanus. Other sources say that tetanus mortality is about 10% now. There were wide disparities in the mortality quoted in the article I put up yesterday, and I'd just have to leave it at that. Diphtheria is no longer with us, but it used to be called the children's angel of death. My mother had a neighbor boy who died of it in the '30s, despite every doctor in Taylor, Texas, being called to his house to try to save him. The Mothering book had an article which discussed an Indian leader, Marie Hughes, I think it was, who reported that diphtheria killed every male child under two years old in her tribe one year. That was before antibiotics, but it has continued to often be deadly even with antibiotic treatment. Diphtheria came back in the ex-Soviet Union thirty years ago, thousands of cases there with many deaths, and it spread to Australia too. They got it under control with a massive vaccination campaign.

I'm just saying, I think this is information which every parent should know before making the vaccine decision. No compulsion either way. At this time, you cannot get just the T in the US. You still could when I got my daughter just the T in 2005 when she was nearly five. But the DT seems to be less reactive than the T, so I don't mind recommending that parents consider the DT series after the age of two. Diphtheria and polio aren't around now, thank heavens, although other enteroviruses are appearing, but still nothing like polio was in the decades before the vaccine.

I also was very impressed at how well one thousand mg of vitamin C worked to save the lives of ALL the children with tetanus who got it at that hospital in Bangladesh. If one of us got tetanus, God forbid, I would certainly demand high-dose IV vitamin C. But I would still like to see other studies which looked at the use of vitamin C to treat tetanus. And everything else.

Just as interesting factoids, the Mothering book, which only looks at the vaccines given to children then, twenty years ago, the years with the highest recorded numbers of cases were: rubella: 1964-5: 57,686 recorded cases, with 20,000 cases of birth defects from congenital rubella syndrome; mumps: 152,209 cases reported in 1968; 894,134 cases of measles reported in 1941, but of course blood tests showed that 99% of children had antibodies to measles by the age of 18, so most cases were either treated at home and not reported, or were subclinical cases; Hib meningitis: 12,000 clinical cases, all serious or even fatal, in 1987; polio: 21,269 cases reported in 1951; pertussis: 265,269 cases reported in 1934. I absolutely do not recommend the MMR, but would say that women need to keep up with whether rubella comes back and think about their options, including the nosode, before becoming pregnant if it does. I don't recommend any of the new shots ever, and not the pertussis vaccine ever for anyone. The Hib vaccine to be considered, not mandated, for babies between six and eighteen months old not breastfed and in daycare.

I completely agree that better nutrition and hygiene have done a lot to reduce the number of deaths from contagious disease, and it's certainly something to factor in when making the vaccine decision. Also the fact that measles and pertussis have become greatly attenuated and are no longer nearly as virulent pathogens as they used to be. Also better supportive treatments like assisted breathing, feeding, rehydration, etc. Antibiotics in some cases. Better access to herbal and homeopathic treatments and preventives like nosodes. But it's also true that many Americans continue to be malnourished and live in crowded, substandard housing, although a lot fewer than even fifty years ago. But I think it's also true that the DPT worked to prevent pertussis in most cases as well as tetanus and diphtheria. Also caused autism in three in 10,000 cases. Now they're talking about replacing the DTaP with the old, more effective DPT again. They don't want people to remember DPT: A Shot in the Dark and Vaccine Roulette. Also true that people should be aware of how dangerous pertussis can be in infants in the first few months of life, who should be kept sheltered at home. Not recommending the vaccine, just that parents know that pertussis is once again common and a grave danger for newborns. Get them the nosode.

I'm really just saying, like you, that people need to research it themselves. The vaccines are not all equally dangerous, though any vaccine CAN cause encephalitic brain damage, autoimmune damage, and man other adverse reactions. I've seen the polio, diphtheria, and tetanus vaccines all described in different books as THE safest of the vaccines. The diseases are not all equally prevalent now or equally dangerous. There are other ways to prevent and treat the diseases than vaccines, though many people would probably choose to get the most necessary vaccines and then not have to worry about it anymore, although they absolutely should not just get them all because that's what the doctor recommends. I'd say just the T (or the DT) series after two and in some cases the Hib vaccine after four months old: after eighteen months old it usually wouldn't be helpful, as ideally the child gets immunity through a subclinical case the way most people used to do. It's usually only dangerous between six and eighteen months old. Polio if it comes back.

cia parker

rtp,

The immune system tries to expel the virus by pushing many of the viruses out through the skin. That's what causes all rashes associated with disease, like measles and rubella as well, or rubeola. When C caught the chickenpox from my shingles, she first had just a few lesions on her chest and back. But a week later, she had hundreds of lesions all over her body. The first day she had a fever of 103 F and she threw up when I gave her her favorite apples-sweet potato lunch. After the first day the rash got very bad, but she felt a lot better, the fever and nausea were gone. It was nearly three weeks before she recovered from the same virus that had given me chickenpox at seven years old that I had carried latent since then. But now she's immune to chickenpox for life, although she might get shingles in later life when under stress. But that's better than chickenpox as an adult. How do you explain that chickenpox, measles, and mumps are usually much more serious when they occur in adults, if none of them are really diseases to start with?

Twenty-five years ago, chickenpox was still a disease that nearly all American children got. The vaccine was introduced in 1995, and within a few years, chickenpox became a thing of the past. In our case, I got two short lines of honey-colored fluid-filled lesions, one on the left side of my chest and the other on my left upper arm. I wouldn't have known what they were, but a friend said they looked like what she had when she was diagnosed with shingles. And a week or so later, C had chickenpox. I had hoped she would get natural chickenpox and had refused the varicella vaccine when she was 18 months old. Do you think she would have had chickenpox, literally hundreds of lesions, if I had not had shingles? Have you noticed that no one gets chickenpox anymore? Do you think it's just a coincidence that it disappeared within a few years of the vaccine being introduced? Sort of like the disappearance of measles and Hib meningitis very soon after the vaccines started to be routinely given.

What you say doesn't make sense. Three years ago I got a summer flu the day we brought our new puppy home on August 13. I had a 104 degree fever for two days, 103 for one more day. After I recovered, my daughter's speech therapist told me that many school children were getting that flu and missing their first week of school. I took Polly to Puppy Kindergarten classes at Petco, and our teacher said he had had that flu the week before, he had a 103 degree fever for three days. When I went to the local health food store and said that I had had a horrible flu, the girl who checked me out said that two of their employees had had it the week before we went to get the puppy. I had gone there to get groceries on Thursday, so we wouldn't have to leave the puppy alone that week. We got her on Saturday, and I was deathly ill by that evening. Just a strange coincidence, or that I caught the virus at the store on Thursday, it had a two-day incubation period, and I had a high fever two days later? And not just me, but many people here. My daughter had the EV-68 virus four years ago, the week after classes started in August she came home from school with a runny nose, had a severe cough and congested nose by bedtime, and coughed for two months. Also lost some of the hearing in her left ear (polio-type meningitis). Just a coincidence that tens of thousands of school kids in the US had that illness that fall, that some schools shut down for the duration? Some of them were permanently paralyzed and some died? Just their imagination? Was it just a coincidence that millions of people worldwide in 1918-19 died of the Spanish flu, and that 100% of those alive at that time subsequently had antibodies to that H1N1 flu for the rest of their lives? Ebola, dengue, chikungunya, typhoid, none of them exist as disease entities? Even though they've identified them with high-powered microscopes?

I've read what you say in some Waldorf books, and it didn't make sense in them either. My experience of reality coincides with germ theory, and I just don't understand why the Waldorf people have gone off on that track.

David Weiner

Cia,

Thanks for sharing the information on tetanus. Good to see that high dose Vitamin C appears to be very helpful for it too.

David m burd

CIA, your earlier comment citing 3,000 deaths per year by diphtheria is terribly wrong. The 1948 US Vital Statistics on Mortality cites 416 diphtheria deaths for children from birth to age 5 for 1948.

The DTP vaccine shot was initiated in 1949 with no good stats as to participation. I can only guess your claimed figures are from pro-vaccine sources just "making up figures". What is your source?

cia parker

I agree, David. No mandates of any kind and let the parents research and decide. And then keep careful records of the outcomes to learn more, and then future parents will have more concrete information to use in making their decisions to vax or not.

cia parker

David,
Here's a link to the Bangladesh study, which Mike Stevens was kind enough to give me the link to the actual study.

http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/hemila/CT/Jahan_1984_bm.pdf

All of the children who got C in addition to standard therapy as of 1984 recovered. 67.8% of those who didn't get it, but just standard therapy, died. Of the adults, most of them died even with C because it was a low dose, 1,000 mg for everyone. 74.2% of those who only got standard therapy died.

So absolutely, C should be given to everyone to treat everything, and I would really like to see studies on how successful it was. At this time, though, it is not standard therapy, and it would be hard to fight with the hospital when a loved one was in a life-or-death struggle with tetanus. My father saw a man die of it in his father's doctor's office in Louisiana in the '30s. The vaccine is very effective and if it's just given as the DT, it's not ALWAYS safe, but it is usually given with no adverse reactions.

cia parker

David,
I don't think that number of deaths from tetanus is unrealistic. This study from 1960, after most Americans had been getting the tetanus vaccine for many years, shows that the mortality rate even then, WITH antibiotics (which would usually not help), was 69% in 1950, and 63% in 1960. The rate of mortality varied by area, from 32% to 75%. Even now, with the best of hospital care, tetanus has a high mortality rate of between 10 and 50%.

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.54.5.769

The study says that the drop in tetanus mortality in the '20s was probably from the use of the antitoxin for tetanus-prone wounds, and the drop in the '50s from the generalized use of the vaccine. But once you GET tetanus, there is no medical treatment for it: just muscle relaxants and antibiotics. The greatest number of tetanus cases in the US outside of wartime was in 1923, when there were 1,560 cases. Mortality was around 50%. And by that time, they knew that wounds should be cleaned well to prevent tetanus. We have a much larger population now, so if no one got the vaccine, there would probably be several thousand cases of tetanus a year, probably with a ten to fifty percent death rate even with modern hospital care. Vitamin C would reduce the mortality, but there would be a lot of people who did not start the treatment in time to save them.

About half of tetanus cases now are from inapparent wounds that were not cleaned because the person was unaware of them. Things like splinters and rose thorns. I'll get the Bangladesh study, put this up first. I was shocked at the very high death rate from tetanus even with modern hospital care.

The bottom line is that I think it would be reasonable to get the DT series after the age of two, and then not have to worry about every wound or about inapparent wounds. I worried in 2005 when a pet gerbil bit me, and a care book said that gerbils CAN carry tetanus in their GI tracts. I got a tetanus booster, which will probably protect me for many more years.

rtp

This is what you do Cia you ignore 90% of what people say and just keep on arguing with them as though they never said it.

I pointed out that disease *appears* to be contagious because it's caused by trauma. Two or more people can share the same trauma.

Chicken pox is a trauma of separation (it actually comes in the healing phase). Like measles and all the other epidermis skin conditions it will occur on our bodies at the place(s) our sub conscious minds most closely associate the separation.

And this must be true because a viral explanation is absurd.

Why would a virus give a child a rash, say, behind the knees and inside the elbows?

The non random patterning of rashes tells us that rashes cannot possibly be caused by anything other than the mind.

cia parker

David,

I completely agree. No one should get the pertussis vaccine. The vaccine is very dangerous, whether whole-cell or acellular, while the disease is no longer dangerous for any but a few of the severely immune-compromised or infants in the first two months of life, and, even in the unusual case that the vaccine might protect from pertussis, it never does so until at least five months old. So the baby is out of the age of danger from pertussis by the time he gets the vaccine, which doubles the rate of asthma if given at two and four months old, as it usually is. In Africa the Guinea-Bissau study showed that the pertussis vaccine increased rather than decreased mortality in the children who got it. It can be prevented by a nosode, by isolation at home, and treated with vitamin C if it occurs anyway.

No pregnant woman should get any vaccines. I completely agree. No one can force her to do so, and she shouldn't. We need to continue to teach everyone how dangerous it is to get any vaccine while pregnant.

I think the DT, without pertussis, given after two years of age, might be a good idea, but would let parents make the decision.

cia parker

It's Dr. Elizabeth Mumper, I just looked her up. She also uses an alternative schedule and says it hasn't caused autism in any patients.

David Weiner

Cia,

Independent studies are fine, though I am sure you know that there is little funding for them, the journals are reluctant to publish adverse findings, and the media won't report adverse results.

But what do we do in the interim? As long as these vaccine programs exist, I am 100% in favor of parents deciding which, if any, of the vaccines to take. And sure, they should assess the risks and benefits as well as they can, though we should recognize that the gaps in the research are such that in many cases this will prove difficult to impossible. In my opinion, they would be far better off choosing none versus all.

My primary position has always been that we need to remove the government from the equation here. No vaccine schedules, no mandates, no government research, no government funding, no government propaganda, etc. Let each individual and parent decide how best to contend with potential harm from infectious disease, and let them choose from all available options. That is how we will come up with the best approaches. The market is a discovery process. It won't be perfect, but no approach can deliver perfect outcomes. It will produce results which are greatly superior those obtained from a government monopoly and results will only get better over time. This much should be clear to everyone who follows this issue by now.

David m burd

Another comment of "benefit versus risk" regarding the DTaP shot (brought up by CIA) now urged/coerced into those pregnant and then into their 3 more times by 6 months age: There are numerous Journal Papers proving the neurotoxicity of the Aluminum salts in this vaccine.

Mandating this vaccine, despite its clear and massive damage to totally helpless infants - Damn any alleged benefits! - is a perfect example of the brainwashed medical mind.

cia parker

Rtp,

Contagious does exist, and we have experienced it many times. Do you think my daughter would have had chickenpox in March 2002 a week after I had shingles? She caught the virus from me and now stores the virus permanently in her spinal cord. But I think it's a good thing for children to catch chickenpox naturally.

Why do you think almost no one catches measles or diphtheria anymore? Diphtheria was extremely common until the vaccine and measles infected 99% of children by the age of 18 before the vaccine.

David,

I am all for studies on vitamin C and nosodes, and the more parents who decide to refuse vaccines and take nosodes to prevent and/or vitamin C to treat, the better for the sake of finding out how effective they are on a large scale. But it must be left to every parent to decide. If C/nosodes turn out not to work that well, then many children would die from the diseases when they came back. Of course the industry doesn't want to do the studies, as they would just cut into the pharma bottom line. But we could advocate for independent studies, which would be a very useful thing to do.

There are so many questions involved that it wouldn't be appropriate for me to make the decision for anyone. And if parents continue not to be educated about vaccines now, we just need to continue in our efforts to educate them.

I know that Dr. Humphries advocated for vitamin C treatment in Israel when polio viruses were found in the water there. But, again, it would have to be the parent who decided. If there were a polio outbreak here, and I saw pictures of and saw the numbers of those paralyzed by it, or the little children killed by it, I would probably get polio boosters for both myself and my daughter. I'd also read about how successful using homeopathic lathyrus sativa to prevent polio was, and depending on what I read, might decide to go that route. I wouldn't wait until paralytic polio set in before deciding for vitamin C treatment. But if it did, I would certainly insist on treatment with C.

Dr. Sears also said that he had very good outcomes in his patients using his reduced schedule, no autism. Another one too, Dr. Mumkin or something like that. I'll look her up. But combined with Dr. Thomas' positive experience, I'd say that for parents of normally healthy children, choosing one of these reduced schedules (or mine), would probably not result in autism, and would also cause less autoimmune disease than getting the usual schedule. But I think it's very important to remember how awful the diseases I mentioned used to be, and how many were killed or permanently crippled.

David Weiner

Cia,

I think that the 1,000 potential deaths from tetanus in an unvaccinated population that you suggested is too high.

According to the CDC, there are about 3 deaths per year from tetanus in the U.S. If the true risk for a totally unvaccinated population was 1000 deaths per year and 1% of the population was unvaccinated for tetanus, then we should be seeing 10 deaths per year from that population alone. And I think that the unvaccinated rate is probably higher than 1%.

David Weiner

Cia,

Dr. Klenner (and others) successfully used high-dose vitamin C to prevent permanent paralysis from polio.

You would like to see a large-scale study to demonstrate this? Well, it has been almost 70 years since Klenner presented his findings, so there has been plenty of time to do such a study. Clearly, the powers that be do not want to even entertain this possibility. They want people to be terrified of polio and to be dependent on vaccines and government to protect them.

But guess what? If we had medical freedom, then parents who believed as I do could forego the polio vaccine and rely upon high-dose Vitamin C if their kid got polio. And their experience would give us the information that you would like to see. Or you could substitute nosodes or any other potential prevention or treatment for polio in place of Vitamin C. So medical freedom is the answer here, not a more limited vaccine schedule.

You also stated:

"Shouldn't it be left up to the well-informed parent to decide which, if any, they want their child to get? Several of the doctors with reduced vaccine schedules have commented here, and said that no child who has gotten their reduced schedule has gotten autism."

But the problem is that, in the current environment, few if any parents ARE well-informed or even could be. They are not given accurate information about the risks and benefits of the vaccines. Dr. Thomas has tried to provide informed consent and I give him credit for that, but he can only do so to the extent that the necessary research has been done and that it has been done properly. And yes, his reduced schedule did not cause autism, which is a wonderful result, but it did cause other problems that did not occur in his unvaccinated cohort.

rtp

Cia maybe you should take the time to understand what I'm saying.

Contagious does not and cannot exist.

This can be proven. But it's obvious at any rate. You would never visit a doctor if disease could actually be spread.

Now stop worrying about germs and start worrying about all the lunatics - many with immense political power - who are so scared of germs that they'll poison every man, woman and child on the planet to avoid them.

cia parker

I think we need to consider what we will do when very few people vax and once again we have a thousand people a year dying of tetanus, three thousand of diphtheria, a thousand of Hib meningitis, and four thousand crippled for life with polio. Or more. Because when the diseases come back, they will. Is everyone all right with that, since no one would be injured by vaccines anymore? Are parents going to agree with that?

There continues to be no medical treatment for the toxin-mediated damage caused by tetanus and diphtheria. Maybe high-dose vitamin C would successfully treat it, but I would like to see a fairly big study done to show that. Antibiotics will treat diphtheria and meningitis if it is started soon enough, but there continue to be a lot of hospital deaths from these diseases when they occur, despite antibiotic treatment. There continues to be no medical treatment for polio.

I fully concur that every vaccine causes some level of damage to everyone who gets any, but when I was growing up, while ALL children had gotten the DPT and polio vaccines, everyone I ever knew was bright, active, and healthy: no classic autism, very little autoimmune disease. USUALLY it's vaccinating young infants or the accumulated damage from many vaccines which is most to blame. For seventy years most babies have gotten the DPT vaccine, and have not gotten diphtheria or tetanus. For sixty years most have gotten the polio vaccine. For thirty most have gotten the Hib vaccine. And have not gotten polio or Hib disease. It's only been since the vaccine epidemic started in 1990 that we've seen the rates of vaccine injury explode. Most children who get only a few vaccines, and do not get the hep-B vaccine, do not sustain perceptible damage, while they also don't die of the diseases. Shouldn't it be left up to the well-informed parent to decide which, if any, they want their child to get? Several of the doctors with reduced vaccine schedules have commented here, and said that no child who has gotten their reduced schedule has gotten autism.

I just think we should remember how horrible it was when a child choked to death with diphtheria, spasmed to death with tetanus, died in agony from meningitis, or was crippled for life with polio. Maybe nosodes offer an answer: I'd also like to see a large study on that. But it's a huge mistake to write off the suffering caused by vaccine-preventable diseases because we hate vaccines so much. And nutrition and hygiene are not enough to prevent these diseases or this suffering.

I basically agree with Handley, except for the pertussis component of the DPT. THAT'S what caused most of the vaccine injuries of the '50s and '60s. Then the MMR caused a lot of it in the '70s and '80s. Then the Vaccine Epidemic hit in 1990. So many parents might consider the DT and the polio vaccine, and for babies not breastfed and in daycare, maybe the Hib vaccine. And then avoid most of the ravages of disease and also most of the ravages of vaccine damage.

rtp

So you want to gain traction?

Call people who get their shots "biological terrorists".

Not because of shedding - which is impossible in reality and in the minds of pro-vaxers - and therefore has zero rhetorical value.

But call them biological terrorists because of the place where most of them go to get their shots. Pro vaxers *are* genuinely scared of sick people so this argument is emotionally resonant - devastating in fact.

It instantly puts them on the defensive and destroys every single piece of rhetoric they can possibly throw at you.

Their only "out" is to admit germs aren't that dangerous in which case you thank them for admitting vaccines are unnecessary.

You really should all use this. Again and again.

It pulverizes pro-vaxers.

rtp

The simplest way to counter the fear of germs is to tell people this.

"If people are so scared of the germs of sick people why on earth would anybody visit - much less become - a doctor?"

(If people respond by saying "they are all vaccinated" you can point out that vaccines only "cover" a tiny proportion of supposedly communicable diseases and that people have been visiting doctors for thousands of years - long before vaccines (or even hygiene).

Disease is caused by either trauma or poisoning. Because trauma is often shared (by siblings or classmates or colleagues) diseases (a particular trauma leads to a particular set of symptoms) appear to spread but of course, if disease could spread then visiting a doctor would be instantly fatal.

But that is the dialectic. Just pointing out the germs in doctor offices is - by a trillion miles - the best rhetoric we have.

It's a devastating blow to any pro vaxer to inform them that the very place they take their children to get their precious shots is, according to their anti germ logic, a ticking biological time bomb.

Grace Green

People are definitely terrified of "germs", and in a way I think they are abdicating their responsibility for their own and their children's health to the medical profession/government. They fear the guilt they would feel if anything happened to their children, so prefer to give up the responsibility to others. I'm sure there do need to be alternative strategies for dealing with childhood diseases, before people as a whole would be willing to give up what they wrongly perceive as the safety net of vaccines. In the UK we have no serious alternative health options because of the total monopoly of the NHS, which renders it uneconomic for anyone to set up an alternative practice. It's going to need a complete change of mindset to one of looking after our own health by diet, lifestyle and avoiding pharmaceutical poisons. And I do agree that the more of us who advocate a complete ban on vaccines the sooner this will become seen as a solution worth considering. Watering down the message to one of "better vaccine safety" will be counter productive, keeping people in that state of a false sense of security.

David Weiner

Rtp,

I think that you are right, that people have been conditioned to fear harm from infectious degree to such a great extent (terrorized would not be too strong a word), that in order to do away with vaccines, we are going to need one or more substitutes, at least in the near term. Perhaps down the road, say in another generation or two, people will come to assess the risks in a more rational manner and realize that breastfeeding, good nutrition, and our innate immune system confer excellent protection.

This is why I promote the idea of creating a market for alternatives to vaccination which will prevent serious harm from infectious disease with greatly reduced risk and at a lower cost. One promising alternative is homeoprophylaxis. Herbs and nutrients could also effectively treat infections, such that they do not cause great harm. There are many possibilities here and many approaches yet to be invented. The problem is that we currently have a government monopoly (i.e. the vaccine programs) which is supposedly taking care of this problem for us. This has had the effect of blocking competition and innovation. We need to have a real market here, so people can start thinking outside of the vaccine box and choose the best available option for protecting themselves and their families.

bob moffit

Would love to hear SOMEONE in the scientific community explain the SCIENCE of vaccines .. which begins with the ASSUMPTION that a "one size fits all vaccine" is scientifically possible? Consider .. if every individual's immune system is as complex and unique to each and every individual as is their DNA and fingerprints .. how is it scientifically possible that each individual is expected to have the same tolerance or genetic pre-disposition to the vast majority of anti-gens and adjuvants EVERY VACCINE CONTAINS?

Saying you are "pro-science and not anti-vaccine" is at best intellectually dishonest .. at worst .. completely incompatible with the basic ASSUMPTION upon which the entire "science of vaccines" is based upon … that being the scientific possibility, probability, plausibility of manufacturing a "one size fits all" vaccine.

So .. if one intellectually accepts .. scientifically speaking .. there is no such thing as a "one size fits all vaccine" .. to remain "pro-science and not anti-vaccine" requires one to embrace the "benefits of vaccines outweighs the risks" .. upon which protecting the "herd" allows the sacrifice of those individuals within the herd who are all but guaranteed to pay the ultimate price for the "greater good".

Just my humble .. admittedly uneducated .. opinion …

Rtp

Laura, I'm afraid even you're not quite all the way there. It's all very well telling people not to vaccinate but that won't stop them being scared of other people's germs.

Fear of contagion killed hundreds of millions of people in the Black Death (it was the treatments that killed people not any bacteria). And this same fear of contagion killed tens of millions during the so called Spanish Flu - which was again caused by doctor treatments especially vaccines.

You want to change history - explain to people that there is no such thing as contagious disease.

Heather Kovac

Thank you, Laura Hayes, David Weiner, and Kathy Sincere for your excellent comments regarding the absolute importance of being ANTI-VAX...not, "Let's do more studies and hope someone will develop safer vaccines (an impossibility in and of itself!)." I have been in the trenches for three decades and have seen the complete brainwashing of the masses because the voices of the anti-vax crowd have been replaced by the "let's green vaccines" crowd! There is plenty of science (there has been since the beginning of compulsory vaccination) to show that bypassing our brilliantly-designed closed-blood system is an assault on our immune system and trying to trick this brilliant design only causes suppression of the immune system. Just one vaccine can cause death, life-long disability, or chronic disease. I, myself, was vaccine damaged in 1964 and had debilitatling asthma and ecxema for a good part of my childhood until my mother found out about real nutrition and alternative health practices like chiropractic. So going back to the pre-1986 schedule is just as criminal as the 2018 schedule. Vaccine theory is based on a completely flawed premise, and our movement should put all of it's weight behind exposing that immediately!

Ted Kuntz

Laura and David, I am there with you. I am proudly anti-vaccine. The mass harming of our children and adults is criminal and needs to stop. The entire vaccine paradigm is flawed and dangerous. Anyone who says the are not anti-vaccine is still supporting pharma and the maiming and killing of our children. Its time for us to stand up and be clear. The mass poisoning of our children through vaccination needs to end. Anything less is permitting death and destruction.

go Trump

Well done JB !!!

A link to the other shows here..

https://www.wowo.com/category/pat-miller/



david m burd

Laura Hayes, Yes - JB Handley being ambivalent as to ALL vaiccines being toxic to the nth dgree doesn't make sense. My best guess he is hoping to get heard by the mainstream media. Well, Good Luck, fat chance.

At least, JB is doing so to "open the door" to the overall vast destruction of what is happening every day, each day, over 5,400 infants/toddlers per day are being damaged by their vaccines here in the U.S.

david m burd

Mainstream Media: Regards vaccines completely bought off;

Honest Journalism re vaccines completly bought by $Billions of adverts.

Pharma and its CDC/NIH/FDA and related Agencies compromised to protect their "reputation".

Medical Journals, comprimised by their Pharma incomes.

"Peer Reviews" such as by Institute of Medicine, totally comprised by vested interest, aka Pharma.

State and Federal elected such as Representative and Senators: Bought and sold by $millions of Pharma Dollars every election cycle.

Then there's the so-called Pediatrican Dr. Pan in California who is about as evil as it gets.

Laura Hayes

Kathy,

I am glad you brought up Del's recent comment during an interview this past Monday after a rally in CA in which he stated, "I am not anti-vaccine. I am pro-science." After a friend shared the video clip with me yesterday, I proceeded to send Del the message below via text today. No reply yet.

Hi Del,

A friend send me a brief video clip from Monday’s rally of you being interviewed and saying, “I am not anti-vaccine. I am pro-science.”

Well, I would challenge your statement with the following:

If you are pro-science, it follows that you would be anti-vaccine.

There is zero science to support the safety (meaning doesn’t cause harm), efficacy (meaning protection from illness), success (meaning eradicates infections), or necessity (meaning can’t live without them) of vaccines. However, there is plenty of science to show that vaccines cause harm, including death, fail repeatedly and regularly, are not responsible for the eradication of the infections for which they are targeted, and are not needed for good health or longevity. So how is it scientifically sound to say that you are not anti-vaccine?

I continue to be baffled by and greatly frustrated by those who supposedly understand the Vaccine Holocaust and all that is at stake publicly stating that they are not anti-vaccine. Still waiting for one of you who publicly states that position to tell me what there is to be pro about when it comes to vaccines.

I really do hope you will explain to me how you can say you are pro-science but not anti-vaccine. That is akin to saying that you are pro-science but not anti-thalidomide for pregnant women.

Laura

Laura Hayes

David Weiner,

Thank you for commenting. I concur with what you wrote. I have posted comments in the past when J.B. mentioned returning to the pre-1986 schedule as a possible solution. We must remember that it is THAT schedule that led to the 1986 Act in the first place! The vaccine carnage was such that vaccine-making pharmaceutical companies were stopping their vaccine production because they were losing so many multi-million dollar lawsuits due to the injuries and deaths their vaccines were causing. Vaccines were no longer good for PR or for the bottom line. That is, until the 1986 Act came along, indemnifying all who make and administer vaccines. Talk about insanity...that is the point in time when a complete moratorium on all vaccines should have been immediately instituted. There is not one vaccine that has ever been properly or ethically approved, not one. Therefore, not one should be on the market or on the menu of choices, not one.

For decades now, activists have tried the "moderate", "soften the message", "don't demand what is actually needed, wise, or ethical" approach. It has not worked in the past, is not working now, and is a large part of the reason why we are in the dire straits in which we currently find ourselves.

The clock has run out. People of all ages, millions/billions of them, are being poisoned every single day via vaccinations. I do not want to be fighting this battle until the end of my days. I don't want my young adult children having to figure out how to protect their future children from the government, the medical profession, pharmaceutical companies, law enforcement, and from the vaccine-induced harm and premature death they all currently have a hand in inflicting. I have already been involved in this battle for over 2 decades, and I know others who have been at it for nearly 4 decades. Activists must change their rhetoric and their demands to those which will ensure a meaningful victory.

The solution continues to be very simple:

To stop the Vaccine Holocaust, we must stop vaccinations. Today. Period.

No time to pussyfoot around, or compromise. The task at hand is to DEMAND our medical choice freedom, and to fully restore our individual and parental rights with regard to medical decision making. No vaccine mandates can be tolerated, with or without exemptions, now or ever. Nothing other than a simple "no thank you" must be the requirement when one wants to decline or refuse a medical treatment or procedure for oneself or one's child. This isn't a complex argument. We are talking a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT of all human beings, for goodness sake...to determine that which they allow, or don't allow, into their own bodies, and those of their children.

This is no time for moderate stances, for further investigation into vaccine "safety", for expansion of exemptions, or for compromises of any sort. It is time to revolt against medical tyranny. It is time to speak the unadulterated truth about vaccines, which includes that not one should be on the market, and demand the banning of vaccine mandates and the return of unfettered medical choice freedom.

Kathy Sincere

I am not nearly as eloquent as Laura Hayes and David Weiner. Yet I feel compelled to comment because I so very much agree with their sentiments. I literally feel sick when I read comments/speeches/books by parents of vaccine injured children that call for more oversight and more vaccine research.

What is it going to take to get people in our vaccine awareness movement to come together in solidarity? What is it going to take for EVERYONE to say “yes we are anti-vaccine because we are anti-toxins, anti-injury, anti-autism, anti-death”? What is it going to take for everyone to have the courage to speak the Truth?

Del Bigtree states “Stand up, Be Brave, Speak Out” and yet still says he is not anti-vaccine. I can’t believe he can make that statement after so many years in the trenches of this Vaccine War and viewing the horrendous damage to children and their families.
.
We have absolutely no chance of beating our enemies in Pharma and Government unless we have the same voice and march to the same message. Period. What will it take to finally accomplish this? It will be when the hammer falls in a year or two and it will be a year or two late.

They know this and they are counting on divisions within our troops.

david m burd

JB Handley is unfortunately "half-hearted" regards ALL vaccines' terrible toxicities, perhaps to give him less censorship by the Mainstream Media, or even alternate Media.

At least, JB is a strong wedge that can indeed initiate the expose the rest of the HELL that is afflicting virtually every family that has unwittingly followed the CDC Child Immunization Schedule per

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6105a5.htm

This CDC Schedule is typical despite its year.

A gigantic problem is that very few parents have ever viewed this horrendous toxic onslaught that will be injected into their infants. How to inform parents? I am baffled.

David Weiner

Laura,

Thanks for your critique of J.B.'s call for the continued investigation of vaccine safety.

I have thought much the same thing, though I have held my tongue up until now.

The time for studying the safety of vaccines is before they are given, not after they have harmed millions of people. And, of course, so much of what passes for vaccine research is nothing more than a sham. How can we ever put stock in fraudulent government and industry research? One might say that independent research is needed, but we know that there is little funding for this and little appetite for publishing such studies, and even less appetite for giving proper coverage to the results of such studies.

I have also heard J.B. make statements that we should go back to the old vaccine schedule of years ago, with DPT and Polio. While I am sure such a schedule would cause less harm than today's barrage, I think that this is the wrong position for our movement to take. We must demand an end to vaccine schedules altogether. We must make the case that governments have not and cannot improve the health of their subjects by centrally planning their health care. Health does not accrue from government coercion, propaganda, and fraud. And that has been the foundation of the government vaccine programs from day one.

I make these statements with reluctance, because I do greatly appreciate J.B.'s work for Generation Rescue, his educational efforts, and his passion for our cause. But I also believe that we will never prevail if we think that we can get there through compromises in our rhetoric, trying to appear moderate or reasonable. We are fighting a powerful and vicious enemy who will not lose any sleep over activists who are trying to tweak things. We must be bold and strive to abolish the government vaccine programs.

Jeannette Bishop

Thank you... great interview!

Paul Thomas

Join me today at 1 PM Pacific Time (4 PM East coast) as I will be interviewed by Pat Miller of WOWO on the vaccine topic and we shall see what else :)

Paul Thomas MD
Author of The Vaccine-Friendly Plan & the upcoming Addiction Spectrum and host of The Addiction Summit: www.addictionsummit.com (The summit is online and free - starts in 3 days August 13 - 19)

Laura Hayes


Thank you, Hans, for the link to Bernadette Pajer’s powerful testimony...simply awesome! I will be sharing it with others. She displays the level of boldness that every American citizen must begin to utilize if we are to break the freedom-ending, tyrannical hold that Pharma has on the U.S. and globally.

Regarding JB’s book, I just read the description of it on Amazon. I am sure it contains a wealth of damning information about vaccines and those who profit from the poisoning of nearly all now, from fetus to grave, via vaccination. Yet, I read that he takes a moderate position and that he calls for the continued investigation of the safety of vaccines, which I take to mean more vaccine safety studies.

We have time to wait for more vaccine “safety studies” like those on the Titanic had time to wait for more rescue boats to be built. Continued investigation is not the solution...an immediate moratorium on each and every vaccine is.

The description also states that vaccine injury is 1 in 50, and autism is 1 in 36. If the premise of the book is that vaccines cause autism, with which I fully agree, then those numbers don’t make sense. Vaccine injury includes autism plus so much more...meaning vaccine injury is greater than 1 in 50, greater than 1 in 36, and in actuality is 1 in 1. No one remains unscathed and unharmed after being injected with known toxins, neurotoxins, carcinogens, nervous and immune system disruptors, a carrier of other ingredients through cell walls and into the brain, viruses and retroviruses of both human and animal origin, food proteins and other allergens, detergent and anti-freeze, foreign DNA, and who knows what other heinous ingredients made in heinous ways since all ingredients are not required to be listed.

The time for a moderate position with regard to immediately ending the Vaccine Holocaust, which includes the Autism Eoidemic, has come and gone...and has actually never existed. There are some things we can not be moderate about, and the poisoning and subsequent destruction of our children, and ultimately our nation, is one of them.

Gary Ogden

Excellent!

Hans Litten

https://vaxxter.com/bernadette-pajer-washington-state-board-of-health/

Woman Called ‘SuperMom’ After Heroic Vaccine Speech

“We have discovered a network of government and drug industry entanglement so complex and so richly funded, they form a pervasive tightly woven fabric consisting literally of thousands of groups all working together towards just one thing: increasing vaccination uptake.”

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