Think Out Loud Asks About Parental Vaccine Opt Out: Comments Ensue
From Apgar to ADOS

Denying Service to Customers

Rainbow20cakeBy Kim Rossi Rainbow vaccine

Earlier this week, the Supreme Court of the United States of America ruled that a baker Colorado in can refuse to bake wedding cakes for gay marriage, in effect,  deny them service.  The ruling is narrow and specific to this case. The result is the same. One baker is able to say, "No, I will not create a wedding cake for a gay marriage."  

When a pediatric practice kicks out a patient because Mom or Dad choose to alter the vaccination schedule, maybe even forego vaccination for a period of time, or eschew it altogether, I see no difference. Yet I see no outcry in the news.

This is 2018, not 1958. We don't have separate water fountains and Jim Crow laws. We have SB277 instead.

A ruling in Colorado just denied medical marijuana for the treatment of autism.  In my opinion, this is a result of the long standing edict that autism has never been and never will be "treatable." We are denied medical care, therapies at every turn.   While every group seems to get a letter, a designation, protection and support were are relegated firmly to the bottom of the pecking order. A group with no rights or protections. We're reviled in the media. And our kids are denied service from pediatricians who provide a range of services to children, because we refuse one portion of their practice.  Kids need a doctor. They get colds. Broken bones. Parents have myriad questions and need support. Vaccines have become the center of the solar system in pediatrics. To deny their use is to be a flat-earther. And out you go.

Here is the AAP definition of a pediatrician:

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) has developed the following definition of pediatrics and a pediatrician:

Pediatrics is the specialty of medical science concerned with the physical, mental, and social health of children from birth to young adulthood. Pediatric PA charging patientsPediatric care encompasses a broad spectrum of health services ranging from preventive health care to the diagnosis and treatment of acute and chronic diseases.

Pediatrics is a discipline that deals with biological, social, and environmental influences on the developing child and with the impact of disease and dysfunction on development. Children differ from adults anatomically, physiologically, immunologically, psychologically, developmentally, and metabolically.

A pediatrician participates at the community level in preventing or solving problems in child health care and publicly advocates the causes of children.

In 2018, pediatricians are denying service to children because their parents are delaying or eschewing vaccination. Forbes ran an article that As More Parents Refuse Vaccines, More Doctors Dismiss Them -- With AAP's BlessingGiven the broad scope of the definition of pediatrics, shouldn't a a doctor embrace a patient Carmichael Pediatricswith autism even more firmly than a typical patient?  

Kim Rossi is Managing Editor for Age of Autism.

Comments

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Angus Files

Your right Linda we have to watch the slippery slope and to that extent I dont agree with cake seller.If that was my cake shop whoever refused them would be out,gone, if they hung around long enough for the bollocking bigger fool them.

Pharma For Prison

MMR RIP

Linda1

Angus,
You didn't refuse to do business with them because they were gay. You had a good reason - they were going to kill the hens and that's not what you were selling them for.

I guess as far as discrimination in this country goes, very ugly history, you maybe had to be there to understand just how ugly. A cake is not the same, but it could be a slippery slope back to the way it was if we are not careful. Some would like that very much.

Gary Ogden

John Stone: Right on the money. Distract them. Bread and circuses.

John Stone

Barry

I think that’s the essence- wind everyone up about minutiae so they don’t see the big picture.

Barry

Of all the things within my spectrum of concern, some baker refusing to bake a cake for ANY customer, is not even on the radar.

What I'm most concerned about, is the right to REFUSE the services of anyone who believes they have the right to jam them down my throat.

The last thing any pediatrician needs to worry about, is the right to refuse their services from my family. Because I fired my son's pediatrician, long before she had the chance to fire me.

Angus Files

Thats blatant racial discrimination against blacks.Last year I was selling 7 young hens.A gay looking couple came to the house and were going to buy them . I was all for it until they said they were good food for our python.I refused to sell them the hens and they were very annoyed as they had travelled 98 miles etc.I could have said it wasnt a Christian thing to do which it wasn`t. Would that have been discriminatory against gays,no its my and everyone`s right to say no,for whatever reason religious or otherwise.Jumping from cake to blacks is chalk and cheese.

Pharma For Prison

MMR RIP

Gary Ogden

David: Thank you. Very similar to my thinking on such matters. It does seem foolish for a business to refuse service to someone who behaves well and dresses appropriately simply because they think their lifestyle is morally wrong. I would decline to patronize such a business because I feel everybody deserves to be treated with basic dignity, and the non-acceptance of gays is based upon nothing more than ancient prejudice. Forced vaccination is the worst sort of state-sanctioned discrimination. We long ago ceased to be a representative democracy. We've become much too big, that is, the federal government has, and corporate interests direct nearly all of what Congress does. One of the great tragedies of our system is that members of Congress spend half their time on the phone rounding up campaign cash, yet it is clear that all that political advertising makes little difference in election outcomes.

David Weiner

I should have added that the government vaccine schedules and mandates are, of course, also important factors in creating this coercive monopoly.

David Weiner

Linda,

You stated: "Just one example, before our anti-discrimination laws, black members of touring musical bands would not be able to eat at the same restaurant or sleep at the same hotel as their white band mates."

I think we need to be very careful when discussing these matters, because many people conflate 2 different situations:

1) Jim Crow laws, i.e. state-mandated discrimination, which were prevalent in the South until the 1960's, where businesses are compelled to discriminate against certain groups of people. This type of law should never be tolerated in a free society.

2) Discrimination on the part of owners of private property, such as the bakers who refused to make a cake for a gay wedding. This type of discrimination should be legally tolerated, though people who object to it are free to speak out against such actions and organize boycotts, if they think that they are warranted.

This raises the question: which category would pediatricians refusing to serve non-vaccinating or semi-vaccinating patients fall into.

At first glance, it would appear to be type 2), since the pediatric practices are ostensibly private businesses . But when you look at the matter more closely, I think that the right answer is that this type of discrimination is really more akin to a Jim Crow law, even though their actions are not specifically compelled by law.

Basically, we have governments which, via its licensing laws, mandate that pediatricians attend a medical school that provides a curriculum which is heavily biased in favor of vaccination. Then, these same pediatricians are subject to sanction by medical boards established by government which are also strongly in favor of vaccination. So, in effect, you have a situation where the government has created a monopoly, or a cartel to be more precise, of pediatricians who are strongly biased in favor of vaccination (we'll set aside here the few pediatricians who have transcended these circumstances and managed to maintain their medical license).

So, indirectly, through its licensing laws, government has created circumstances which are tantamount to a Jim Crow law discriminating against those who do not want to abide by the CDC schedule. So this is why I, a consistent libertarian, do not think that it is appropriate to defend pediatricians right to discriminate in this situation.

Linda1

Angus,
There are people here who feel strongly that any good or service should be sold on the sole discretion of the seller, in all cases, including medical care, food, water, electricity, etc., regardless of the consequences for the person(s) turned away. Just one example, before our anti-discrimination laws, black members of touring musical bands would not be able to eat at the same restaurant or sleep at the same hotel as their white band mates.

Grace Green

Of course, the situation here in the UK is quite different. Someone has already commented that the courts here have forced bakers to make gay wedding cakes (whatever they are). On medical and dental matters, we can, in my experience be refused treatment, and/or a diagnosis, by the NHS, and there is NO ALTERNATIVE available either within the NHS or privately. This is why you have cases of people traveling to the USA, or other European countries - probably countries we used to describe as impoverished - for essential and sometimes life-saving treatment. Or they might even be kidnapped and incarcerated and left to die, as in the case of Alfie Evans.

Angus Files

The cake is a non- essential item that can be bought almost anywhere medical care is not. If were arguing non-discrimination laws the cake has a limited necessity medical care is not. The bakers obviously feel that they are violating their religious beliefs, why isn’t that being respected. Just as its argued by a Judge on an non earthly subject in the court that the Christian should submit. Is it right for a court of law to Judge on a non earthly subject. In my opinion in short, there are serious limits to the cake argument and non-discrimination laws and it doesn’t carry into non- discrimination laws.If the Christian faith goes all my Gay friends and family members will be thrown from buildings.You cant have your cake and eat it -as they say.

Pharma For Prison

MMR RIP

will

The gay bakery situation is not related to doctors denying services to a parent that disagrees with the vaccine schedule so why talk about it anyway AofA. The medical marijuana case is related enough to be here and parents should sue the state for its hypocrisy and interference in private family matters like how the chose to medicate their child.

Autism Investigated

The vaccine statist pediatricians who kick wiser parents out of the practice will simply lose business and give more of it to the vaccine skeptical pediatricians. What the state does to those doctors, however, is the real issue.
https://www.autisminvestigated.com/child-sacrifice-vaccine-policy/

dude

I tried to post this on youtube and was ghost banned. The post only shows when I am logged in.

Anyway, this link to an important series of graphs. In some cases, as with the small pox vaccine, death rates went UP, drastically, after the introduction of mandatory vaccination.

http://whale.to/vaccines/decline1.html

Linda1

David,
Remember, we have to have laws to force hospitals to provide a minimum of care to the indigent. We have to have laws to prevent discrimination even of those of means that are different or not to the seller's liking. It could be a cake. It could be life saving surgery. Not silly, unfortunately.

Shelley Tzorfas

I have not seen a single Pediatrician cure anything, nor have I met one who diagnosed most things correctly. Once your child is vaccine injured, they deny it. They seem to have no clue as to the health of children poisoned with Aluminum, Mercury/thimerosal, cancer-promoting Formaldehyde, animal cells, retroviruses, peanut oils leading to anaphylaxis, and other toxins that they shoot into your innocent healthy babies. Even if or when they refer you to a neurologist, tests are run but at best only psychiatric medicines are prescribed which makes Customers for life. They have No Idea how the boys brains react to so many chemicals that often the area of the brain that develops empathy is forever intoxicated, so to speak. Look at how there are large Groups of pediatric doctors? You barely see the same one twice, guarenteeing that a relationship with them barely develops. That was instituted by the Insurance companies. They sever the concept of relationships. So now 1 in 34 kids in NJ are Autistic with 1 in every 22 boys, not better diagnosis. It is the only state required to report it and so as a result-it is a Truer, more accurate number. That does not include toddlers who fare far worse. I never heard of childhood cancer until after 1986. They are shooting children against "Diseases" that are NOT Diseases, merely 1 to 2 week Temporary illnesses that cause immunity for the rest of their lives! Look mom, No Boosters needed!

Jeannette Bishop

@Benedetta, so sorry! You and your family are in my prayers.

re this thread...
I'm ok with pediatricians posting signs about who they will or will not take into their practice, and I'm ok with people sharing images of those signs for whatever impact they hope to have...as long as I have the right to not seek their "services" or some part of the "services" and the right to choose what to seek for health and from whom, if anyone. I'm actually happier with the up front denial of service, rather than the who-knows-what-threat-I'm-walking-into entering a "health provider's" office.

Having licensing boards monitoring cake makers and forced cake buying and consuming (inject it right on the premises, actually) government "recommended" and expanding schedules...that's how far we've gone in insanity with vaccination. Oh and you can't sue the cake maker or recommenders if you get sick, which most people would naturally expect to happen today, but what if people had been taught all their life that having cake was good for them, saved them from something dreaded (like starvation) that used to be rampant, something important to do for health, something that could be deemed a child's "right?" I'm pretty certain, based upon how we handle vaccination, that we would all be eating more and more cake for health and not understanding where the "side effects" were coming from.

Linda1

Anonymous,
It's really about anti-discrimination to prevent persecution and the resulting denial of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" in a civilized society. It's about us all agreeing that we should not allow people to be shunned, marginalized or denied their rightful place in society because of some characteristic difference that is not illegal.

Forced medical treatment is evil and wrong. Laws that prevent us from making other people miserable, are good.

david m burd

Linda1,

I alwaysenjoy your comments, ===== BUT --- comparing real-life emergencies such as breech babies, etc. to the frivolous demands for a homosexual couple demanding a wedding cake, when they can easily go elswhere, is just plain silly.

On a different slant, I would demand the ACIP (the Immunization Committee for Immunization Practices), each and every one of them, 13 unaccountable Committee Members, have themselves subjected/injected to the total of 32+ vaccines by 7 months, given to mothers-to-be and born-babies surving to that age. AND, adjusted to fifteen times volume the .50 ml doses given preemies and infants (as these unaccountalbe ACIP experts are at least 15 times the weight of newborns).

Let's see if these dispicable, unaccountable, ACIP Members would dare to do so. I think not.

susan welch

Kim, Great post and I entirely agree with you that 'a doctor should embrace a patient with autism even more firmly than a typical patient.'

Pat, I felt you comments were a little harsh, but perhaps I misunderstood them.

Donna L.

What happens if a family has a documented religious objection to vaccination? How do pediatricians avoid religious discrimination lawsuits if they refuse to treat these patients?

annie

The tactic of refusing pediatric services to vaccine choice advocates further serves to marginalize the community. In a piece she wrote for the daily beast Ana Marie Cox lays it out:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ignore-the-vaccination-debate

You see, there's nothing to see here. Vaccine-induced autism and vaccine injury in general isn't real. If we ignore it, it will all just go away.

Linda1

Paradigm shift,

"My guess is that the next shift in children's health will be away from cell phones/wireless devices."

I hope so and hope it isn't already too late for the DNA damage that will be passed down - if the same as in animal studies - causing complete sterility by the 5th generation. For humans, according to Olle Johansson, that is 150 years (this youtube is from 2013 - our gov't now admits that there is "clear evidence" of wireless carcinogenicity).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH3gJctqKk4

anonymous

If the government can force a Christian baker to bake a cake for a gay wedding because the government thinks that’s for the good of society, what will stop them from forcing you and your family to get vaccinated because they think that’s for the good of society?

Linda1

"Further, if Baker #1 doesn't want to bake my cake, I'll make do. Certainly not worth getting all worked up about. Sheesh."

The cake may seem trivial, but when you find yourself thirsty, hungry, out of gas, in a broken down car, with a broken arm ready to give birth to a breech baby while having an asthma attack, needing oxygen and no one will sell their goods or services to you because you are the wrong (fill in the blank), then it is worth getting worked up about, and not possible to make do.

Kim

Hi Bill. Yes the decision was very narrow and about his treatment in lower court. I think the parallel holds - why don’t we deride peds who kick out patients.

Thanks. Kim

Tim Lundeen

@Sharon -- well said! But even for acute care, the mainstream medical system is often a poor choice, and may well kill you. For example, sepsis is well-treated with intravenous Vitamin C. If you go to an emergency room, they will deny you this treatment and you have a high risk of death.

Paradigm Shift

I think educated parents are already coming to realize that seeking out a pediatrician (vs. a family practice or holistic physician) is synonymous with making an uneducated health choice. I mean, what else do pediatricians do besides vaccinate? They rarely pick up on problems kids are having (witness the raging autism epidemic of the past 20+ years), and if they do happen to notice any significant problem, they refer you to someone else anyway, so what is the point?

Look at all that has radically changed in children's health over the past 50 years: formula vs. breastfeeding, disposable vs. cloth diapers, traditional vs. organic food, natural vs. medicated childbirth, and now vaccines vs. true health. It's only logical that vaccinating pediatricians get kicked to the curb.
My guess is that the next shift in children's health will be away from cell phones/wireless devices.

Now, where all this leads to for lower-income families who cannot afford healthier alternatives will be the next great American tragedy.

Bill

Um, with all due respect, Kim Rossi, you're WRONG in your analysis of what the U.S. Supreme Court did, and didn't say in its' ruling regarding the Colorado baker. They simply ruled that the baker's Constitutional rights had been violated by a lower Court that was biased against him, based on religious grounds. In effect, they said the baker had not gotten a fair hearing based on religious discrimination. The Supreme Court did NOT rule on the issue of whether the baker could, or could not refuse to bake a cake for a gay male couple. (To be fair to the baker, I *believe* that his position was that he would have been glad to sell generic baked goods to the gay couple, but did not want to create a specific gay marriage cake.) Legal rulings are often VERY narrow, and sometimes VERY hard to understand in detail. And we all know how bad the media is at getting facts straight!....

Pat

"When a pediatric practice kicks out a patient because Mom or Dad choose to alter the vaccination schedule, maybe even forego vaccination for a period of time, or eschew it altogether, I see no difference."

Not seeing a difference doesn't mean there isn't one.

Business, as private entities, are allowed to "discriminate." And bear in mind that the word "discriminate" has not only broad implications but broad application, not just the "narrow" one you concede.

Medical doctors are part of a business, just like the baker. Either or both may choose to deny service to whomever. But your point, apparently, is that no business should ever be allowed to deny anyone whatever that business provides. I'm guessing you haven't really taken time to extrapolate that point, or, if you have, you've accepted the vileness that such entails (nice).

If my pediatrician decided s/he was not going to do business with me because my views on "care" differ from her/his, I should consider that a benefit. I mean, especially in this day and age, why would I, as a forward-thinking and inquisitve parent, want to enlist the "help" of a medical practitioner who apparently considers as appropriate ONLY whatever it was s/he was taught in medical school? And since doctors are inclined (required by law?) to report "bad parents," who is to say s/he wouldn't, if only because I don't want to vaccinate or whatever?

Further, if Baker #1 doesn't want to bake my cake, I'll make do. Certainly not worth getting all worked up about. Sheesh.

Benedetta

Spend some of all that billions if not trillions -- some -- just a drop in the bucket to bend the minds of young doctors.

Benedetta

So there you go, John Stone: "The last thing we want is psychotropic medicines for autism." or anything else apparently.


Oh and when they sent the big Dr. Psychiatrist to our home - three times ; she said that she was not doing this because she was getting paid by big pharma.

Sigh,

No, of course not. She is a good person except she has been trained unbeknownst to her by an education system that unbeknownst to them on knowledge derived by big pharma.


What better way to spend trillions, no longer billions of dollars to keep all that green rolling in.

Benedetta

Just for your alls information, and the chance you all might possibly need to know: Zoloft; If given to a 93 year old man with Parkinson disease; will result in putting them to sleep -for 24 hours, seven days a week. When it first takes effect almost a week and a half later, it causes falls. As in falling all over the room, turning over everything, before hitting the wall, sliding down, and the big heavy clock falling on his head.


Zyloft; even when cut in half, trying to wean him off of it will cause dystonia; so he can't find their mouth to put food in it. Dystonia as in the flap in his throat gets stuck, so he snore loudly, even when awake, breathing with his mouth wide open like there are few hours left to live. Dystonia as in the physical therapist exclaim that they have never seen any one go down hill that fast, as the promptly release him from their services.

I want to thank the VA in their relentless (Relentless) persistence with Zoloft in treating a WWII veteran like he is just one of the younger veterans that are killing themselves in record numbers.

Linda1

Kim,
The baker and pediatricians' denials are the same because they are both based on religion.

I was recently curious to see how many pediatricians we have in this country and looking up job prospect info, I found that there is a shortage of pediatricians specializing in developmental and neurological disorders, attributed by this one source (of unknown reliability) to the cost of extended education and reluctance to spend the time. And I thought, to them it isn't about the NEED of the patient population, the undeclared epidemic of sick children doesn't seem to be a factor in their career aspirations. It's about THEIR making a good living and having a nice life. The children are a means to THEIR end, which is sickening.

Sharon,
AMEN.

John Stone

Gayle

I have few hopes of the pharmaceutical industry to ameliorate our woes. The last thing we want is psychotropic medicines for autism and even Autism Speaks had to abandon its foray into the area. Of course, one huge problem with administering medicines to non-verbal or semi-verbal autistic people is that they cannot even tell you how they feel. At the moment I feel only terror when politicians and public bodies look to big pharma to sort out our health problems (giving them carte blanche to behave in predatory ways) when nearly all the most effective medicines date to the middle of last century or before, anyway.

Sharon Kistler

Conventional medicine is to be avoided -- whether you are a pediatric or adult patient -- except for acute care. Functional or holistic or integrative medicine is the only kind of medicine that we should all seek to be a part of. It is a shame that we must avoid these conventional systems, but how can you be well if you are vaccinated (and die of SIDS or remain permanently injured) on schedule, if you say yes to conventional psychiatric medications that disable you and put you into SSDI-group homes when you were once enabled (Robert Whitaker's Anatomy of an Epidemic), if you say yes to conventional oncology and allow the cut/burn/poison cancer "treatments" to kill you? To say nothing of the less serious conventional "treatments" whose only goal seems to be making you the patient an annuity in a system of "how many Rx medications can we force you to take" rather than prescribing lifestyle and nutrition treatments.

We must all have the courage to say NO to these systems. To accept their fraudulent, corrupt, money-hungry nature has nothing to do with our well-being. The more of us who shun these systems, the speedier the collapse. There are very good alternatives now in the functional/holistic/integrative worlds. They do cost a lot of money b/c they are outside of the system. Hopefully, one day, the conventional systems will implode, allowing all of us access to the alternatives that put our wellbeing at the forefront of their practice and abide by the Hippocratic oath of "First Do No Harm".

Gayle

Autism as we know it today is and can be treated and CURED with the right research and the right pharmaceutical companies to do the trials necessary to find the drugs necessary to correct what has happened to our children's brains, immune systems, and neurological functions. There are trials going on right now to do just that and the day is finally coming in the near future when our children will be CURED of this condition. We will never give up on our children!

Angus Files

Its a bit like the News being controlled Kim and an agenda being picked as a worthy news story which it is to some.The cake fits with the world wide narrative distracting from the millions of kids every day vaccinated harmed and killed- but thats not an issue.A cake is an issue which I think most folks would say you dont want to bake my cake your loss ,I`m off to your competitors.Would you feel like eating it if they did bake it, would you want to start your marriage with a unwilling cake.Surely we shoudnt be forced into vaccination I mean where is the customer satisfaction gone. Tripadviser lets start a Trip doc and rate them accordingly..

This one in Ireland 2016 with the opposite result nothing like divide and rule.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/01/gay-marriage-cake-ashers-bakery-northern-ireland-uk-supreme-court

PHARMA FOR PRISON

MMR RIP

bob moffit

"Pediatrics is a discipline that deals with biological, social, and environmental influences on the developing child and with the impact of disease and dysfunction on development. Children differ from adults anatomically, physiologically, immunologically, psychologically, developmentally, and metabolically."

Children not only differ from "ADULTS anatomically, physiologically, immunologically, psychologically, developmentally and metabolically … they also differ from other CHILDREN .. as each child is an INDIVIDUAL who inherits their own UNIQUE anatomical, physiological, immunologic, psychological, developmental and metabolical differences .. no different than each child's UNIQUE fingerprints and DNA.

Which is precisely why the pediatric insistence of administering a "one size fits all vaccine" to each individual child .. regardless of that child's UNIQUE inherited differences not only defies common sense .. but .. is recklessly DANGEROUS to those children who suffer the RISKS associated with ALL vaccines .. solely because the pediatrician .. with callous disregard .. is quite willing to "sacrifice" those children .. preferring instead to "protect the herd".

Notice the pediatrician's guide identifies all the "differences" between a child and an adult .. making no effort to pretend they are all simply members of some type of "herd".

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