Awareness without Recognition
Caption Contest: Lesions! Buttocks! Autism! MMR! What??

"You Can Never Really Say MMR Doesn't Cause Autism," Dr. Paul Offit

SplainingThanks to AofA's Nancy Hokkanen for this summation:

"You can never really say 'MMR doesn’t cause autism,' but frankly when you get in front of the media, you better get used to saying it. Because otherwise people hear a door being left open, when a door shouldn't be left open."

- Paul Offit, vaccine developer

"You can't prove that Coca-Cola doesn't cause autism, either... You're in a debate [chuckle] and, you know, you gotta fight unfair."

-  Arthur Caplan, bioethicist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lnA9W2YgeE&t=0s

YouTube video published on May 16, 2016 (Comments disabled)

The National Meningitis Association (www.nmaus.org) hosted a panel discussion, Achieving Childhood Vaccine Success in the U.S., before its 2016 “Give Kids a Shot” Gala on May 9, 2016. The panel addressed a range of issues including parents who opt out of childhood vaccine requirements, physicians who stray from the recommended vaccine schedule, and the role of the media in creating or removing barriers to vaccine success.

The panelists included

  • Arthur Caplan, PhD., Professor of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center
  • Carol Baker, M.D., Professor of Pediatrics, Molecular Virology and Microbiology at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston
  • Paul Offit, M.D., Director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia
  • Dorit Rubinstein Reiss, PhD., Professor of Law at UC Hastings College of Law
  • William Schaffner, M.D., Professor of Preventive Medicine and Infectious Diseases, Vanderbilt University School of Medicine
  • Alison Singer, President of Autism Science Foundation
  • Paul Lee, M.D., Director of the International Adoption Program and Pediatric Travel Center at Winthrop-University Hospital in Mineola, New York (moderator)

Comments

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Hans Litten

http://bolenreport.com/mike-adams-natural-news-attacks-skeptics-center-point/

Vaccine Holocaust Denier (VHD) Paul Offit,
speaking at the 2014 “Amazing Meeting.” Offit, with his wild-eyed rhetoric like “A child can be safely given 10,000 vaccines at once,” it is obvious, fits right in here.

Hera

Curt Watkins;
I also would like to hear your answers to John Stone and ATSC's questions.
Re your quote from Dr Thompson; yes. Kind of proves my point about people not really caring enough about identifying vulnerable populations or working to prevent vaccine injury, imo.

To be honest, how these kind of statements come across to me is rather like the bad King to Shrek and the assembled knights; if you aren't familiar with the movie, he looks at all the knights, tells them they have to go and slay a dragon, and says cheerfully, since he is staying safely at home "Some of you may die, but it is a chance I am willing to take."

When you have no actual skin in the game, and no risk factors in your family, then what is the real down side for you if our kids get injured?

Of course, it doesn't actually benefit society if you maim or kill children, even if you think it is for a "good cause". Those disabled children, no matter how much people try to hide the numbers, are already starting to effect education budgets, and as they continue to age into the general population ,the increasing number of adults requiring lifelong care are going to eventually have an effect on society as a whole.

Imo vaccinating everyone without regard for personal rights to medical choice, ( as codified in the Geneva convention) and without even bothering to make any real attempt to help identify which children will be most likely to be killed or maimed by vaccines, imo is neither moral nor even going to provide any of those much discussed "society benefits".

Pam

CDC Scientist connects vaccines to tics, language delay

Re: MMR-Autism Paper
Dr. William Thompson called the study design "insane" and said it was "criminal."
He said "it was the worst study ever."

The following article & recordings of Dr. Thompson speak volumes...

http://fearlessparent.org/cdc-scientist-connects-vaccines-to-tics-language-delay-recording-4/

Kathryn Craig

In my city the allergists have admitted to family doctors that vaccines are causing allergies. I don't think they've told their patients yet. Kate C

Hans Litten

http://www.peninsulaallergyandasthma.com/our-staff.html

I guess Curt is fighting for his life here .
Diplomate American Board of Allergy and Immunology

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Nasal and Sinus Conditions
Allergic Rhinitis (hay fever)
Nasal congestion
Non-allergic Rhinitis (sensitive nose)
Recurrent and Chronic Sinus Infections
Nasal Polyps
Sinus Headaches

Lung Conditions
Asthma
Exercise-induced Asthma
Chronic cough
Vocal Cord Dysfunction

Food & Other Allergies
Food Allergies
Anaphylaxis (severe allergic reactions)
Drug Allergies
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Immune Dysfunction
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Do away with vaccination , and you are basically out of business son !

ATSC

Curt,

After you've answered John's question, please answer mine:

"Would you agree that people either have antibodies to measles, mumps and rubella, or they don't, regardless of their vaccination history?"

Yes, or no?

John Stone

Hi Curt,

So we have a statement above from Paul Offit that health professionals should lie to the media, and from Arthur Caplan, bio-ethicist, that you have to fight unfair.

Do you agree with them? Yes, or no?

Curt Watkins

here is one of the few public statements made by William Thompson (the so-called “CDC-whistleblower” himself):

"I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits."

I wholeheartedly agree.

Curt

Morag

Caustic carbuncles ! where are the risk assessments? As it is being observed in it's true colours it sure as heck dos not have an odour classification of " Raindrops on Roses " wafting off it?
"Aye aye, captain." " Bathaidh toll beag long mhor" or " A little hole will sink a big ship" or [vaccine vessels]
US Navy vs Spanish Lighthouse -- you tube
Village People - In The Navy - you tube or the Billy Connoly "In the Brownies" version you tube.
HMS Victory World War 1 Would want to tell the caustic carbuncles "Ready ,aye ready, an aye laughing" Someone better give them the good news , their vaccination risk assessments are in line to get well and truly doctored - Vasectomies for vaccine studies . The sooner the better!

John Stone

Cia,

No, you were quoting two and a half in a hundred cases ("2.525%") not two and a half in 10,000.
Best,

John

cia parker

John,
No, that would be two and a half in every thousand cases, but it was really two or in some places three out of every ten thousand, according to the figures given by Dr. Alexander Langmuir and the official record for England and Wales:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1522578/pdf/amjphnation00499-0004.pdf

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814

From Vax Truth:
In the screen shot below, I have figured out the percentage of people who died from measles of all of the measles cases back then. 0.015%. Suddenly, measles seems a little less scary doesn’t it? The CDC claims that around 1 or 2 out of a thousand people who get measles will die from measles. Their math doesn’t add up though. I guess they use the term “about” lightly.

http://vaxtruth.org/2012/01/measles-perspective/

John Stone

nhokkanen

Nancy, I think maybe Curt Watkins has actually given up, unable to defend the statements of Offit and Caplan, (not to mention McCormick) when challenged. Of course, in this age when the term "fake news" is often bandied about it is actually a civilised thing to debate about facts. But even then it is very hard to defend people who say they are going to lie in order to gain an advantage, which is what Offit, Caplan and McCormick have done.

The vaccine program has a problem when its leading proponents are self-confessed liars. What are the troops supposed to do now?

John Stone

Hi Cia,

I believe you are a nought out again! Should be 0.25%?

John

nhokkanen

Curt Watkins still doesn't realize that with every one of his smug diversionary comments, he's telling vaccine injury victims and their parents that:
- he doesn't care about their vaccine adverse reactions,
- he's comfortable letting vaccine injuries continue unabated into perpetuity.

Curt is the kind of perversely selfish guy who'd offer whisky at a MADD meeting.

God help his short-changed patients -- the man needs emergency empathy first aid.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201103/how-test-your-empathy

ATSC

Curt,

"I received the measles vaccine in 1965. I never caught measles. I've never been exposed as far as I know. A couple years ago my hospital required documentation of immunity or vaccination. I had my antibody titers drawn, and turns out I still have plenty. That is one damn long lasting vaccine. "

Was the laboratory informed that you had been vaccinated? I ask because when my son's blood was sent away for titers, the laboratory refused to do the tests - on two occasions. They rang the doctor and myself several times to say they required his immunisation history, and we would not give it to them.

Would you agree that people either have antibodies to measles, mumps and rubella, or they don't, regardless of their vaccination history? If you do, then what possible reason would they have for not doing the tests, or doing them and withholding the results?

There's a whole army of professionals involved in protecting the vaccination programme. From doctors who won't diagnose vaccinated patients with a disease that they've supposedly been immunised against to coroners who diagnose vaccine-caused death as SIDS, SUDS or liver failure.

And why would you give praise the measles vaccine for not catching measles and giving you long-lasting antibodies when, as a doctor, you must know that many measles infections are subclinical?

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(98)02364-2/fulltext?cc=y=

"Subclinical measles occurred in 39 (45%) of 86 vaccinated children who were exposed to measles and in four (25%) of 16 unvaccinated children."

The measles vaccine has made measles far more dangerous than it used to be because school-aged children who should be getting measles, aren't, and the people who shouldn't be getting it, are.

http://www.rxlist.com/measles_rubeola/page7.htm#is_there_any_treatment_for_measles_after_symptoms_and_signs_develop

"The people most likely to have complications (including death) are those who are malnourished or who have weakened immune systems (for example, people with AIDS or other conditions that weaken the immune system)."

ATSC

Cia: "Measles was an extremely dangerous disease up until less than a hundred years ago, with high mortality. "

The way the symptoms of measles were treated might have had something to do with it. In the 18th-19th centuries treatment included blood-letting, opium, calomel (mercury), Peruvian Bark (quinine), wine, laudanum, emetic tartar and camphor.

A Defence of Blood-letting, as a Remedy for Certain Diseases by Benjamin Rush, Medical Inquiries and Observations. Volume 4, Philadelphia 1815 http://bobarnebeck.com/defence.html

An inaugural dissertation on the measles: submitted to the examination of the Rev. William Linn, D.D. P.T. president ; and of the trustees and faculty of Queen's College, New-Jersey ; for the degree of Doctor of Medicine, with the rights and immunities thereunto appertaining by Charles Buxton 1793
https://collections.nlm.nih.gov/bookviewer?PID=nlm:nlmuid-2544087R-bk

"Opium most infamous use in Victorian Britain was as infants' quietener (Parssinen 42). Children were often given Godfrey's Cordial (also called Mother's Friend), consisting of opium, water, treacle, to keep them quiet. The potion had pernicious effects and resulted in deaths and severe illnesses of babies and children. It was recommended for colic diarrhea, vomiting, hiccups, pleurisy, rheumatism, catarrhs, and cough. Twenty or twenty-five drops of laudanum could be bought for a penny. Raw opium was often sold in pills or sticks (Berridge 440)". http://www.victorianweb.org/victorian/science/addiction/addiction2.html


Then came aspirin.... http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/reyes-syndrome/basics/definition/CON-20020083

.....and acetaminophen (Tylenol).

I still don't see Vitamin A being recommended as a treatment except for the malnourished in developing countries.

cia parker

http://www.vaclib.org/intro/measles-intro.htm

Interesting measles statistics. This article is not certain that almost 100% of children used to get measles, but I think we did. Plotkin and Mortimer said that serological tests on army recruits showed that 99% had measles antibodies by the age of 18, although not all of them had gotten clinical cases. I think that's the answer, that a lot of people got permanent immunity from subclinical cases. Even now, it is presumed that anyone born in the US before 1958 had natural measles. If that's the case, then in 1920, there were about three million births a year, with 7575 measles deaths, or 2.525%. But that means it wasn't NEARLY as deadly as diphtheria, pertussis, or scarlet fever at that time.

cia parker

John,
Sorry, you're right, 0.01% in the early '60s died of measles, one in 10,000, maybe 0.015%.

John Stone

Cia,

I think that's 0.01%.

John

cia parker

Hera,
Measles causes death in about one in 10,000 patients, which is in 0.001% of those who get it, not the population as a whole. I'm agreeing with you that for most people it's better to just get the disease, which is really not very dangerous. Sometimes I wonder what parents of immunocompromised children should do, or those of malnourished children. The vaccine might be even more dangerous for them than for healthy children, but with one in ten children with measles dying of it in Africa, for sickly children it might be worth it to get the vaccine. However, in the 90% who recover even in Africa, there is a huge slash in their mortality in the next five years. only one-fifth the mortality as in those who did NOT get measles. whether they got the vaccine which prevented it or just did not get measles. Measles, again, in of incalculable value to training the immune system to protect the person involved. Really the decision has to be left up to the parents: who can figure out at what point a child is sickly enough to fall in the 10% mortality category or not?

Linda1

Pam,
Curt sounds like a doctor who is a member of the Offit/Caplan vaccine promotion despite any costs to society club. He presents himself as a healer and an all knowing sage, when he is really a bully and an impostor.

Hera

Hi Curt,
yes, you are right that their was a ten month dose of vaccine given.But this is a population where mortality happens in the first nine months. A high titre vaccine is specifically designed to get a response even from young infants. And the infants it was given to had a higher death rate.

The difference between us and you, is that for you all the deaths and injuries from vaccines are academic.For those of us with autoimmune diseases etc in our family, the risks from the vaccine are terrible. We realize that with one shot,our kids may lose their health for good. And there is no one with any real treatment to fix it. There is no attempt to identify who will react so badly, and the doctors best response is lets pretend it didn't happen. You read about a death from the mmr booster, ( Holly Lyle) and it didn't even faze you, or occur to you that this is what happening here, in this country, under your watch. Kids are being injured, kids are dying by a medical treatment that is being forced on them, and what we get is a lecture on the evils of a disease that I have already had and survived just fine.

So the question really is; how many two year olds is it okay to maim so that you can prevent a mostly benign illness?
if we look at possiblities, risk versus benefit
Risk factor number one; Measles; a fairly benign illness, treatable with vitamin A, not common in the US. that when it does occur, kills less than 0.2 per cent of the population and confers lifelong protection against some kinds of cancer.

Risk factor number two; the vaccine.
.High fevers that will be considered "normal" as a reaction. Epileptic seizures that will be considered normal. Encephalitis, high pitched cries for hours, that will be considered "normal"
The chance of lifelong epilepsy starting at the age of two.
The chance of lifelong brain damage caused by encephalitis
The chance that the person will now require institutional care for the rest of their life.
And the chance of instant death at the age of two (or five with a booster).

If you get the shot and your kid ends up injured or dead, you don't get to do a do over. Every day in every life is always on borrowed time. And risk factors are different for different people. MTHFR, Iga deficiency, family history of immune disorders all seem to massively increase the chance of a reaction to vaccines, though for the most part no one wants to study who is vulnerable at all.
One is left to believe that this is because they really don't care if our kids get injured.


cia parker

Curt Watkins,

Measles was an extremely dangerous disease up until less than a hundred years ago, with high mortality. Like pertussis, it evolved to become much less virulent, and had become a relatively mild, universal disease by the '50s in developed countries. Death or disability had become very rare in previously healthy, well-nourished children. Any disease can take a bad turn and at least sometimes cause death.

The decision has to be left up to the parent. It IS necessary to respect the potential danger of measles, keep the patient in bed throughout, well-hydrated, give him the appropriate dose of vitamin A even here in the US, NO fever reducers, which may in some cases cause encephalitis, and keep him quiet at home for three weeks after the day the rash appears, to prevent secondary infections which may take hold before the immune system has recovered. But going through the disease is of irreplaceable value for the child's lifelong health.

Which is worse, a disease which in a very small percentage of cases causes death or disability, but is very beneficial for the majority, or a vaccine which not infrequently causes autism, bowel disease, or other disability, encephalitis, and sometimes death? The vaccine has no benefits other than preventing three beneficial diseases at the time in life when they are mildest. I would not force anyone one way or the other, but it would probably come down to which the parent was more frightened of based on what he had read or heard. And when measles comes back in force, as it will, then most people will realize it's not that bad and shouldn't be feared, just respected and well-nursed. And a LOT better than a lifetime with autism.

Han Litten

Curt (surely that is a spelling mistake ?)
Ndavis

www.autismone.org/content/mark-david-geier-new-expanded-diagnostic-paradigm-abnormal-connectivity-spectrum-disorders

What are these two geniuses raving on about ?

John Stone

Curt

It was "stuff", which is perhaps rather British.

My point: I was referring back to the topic of this article which was the determination of Offit, Caplan, Pan etc to steamroller everyone into submission and being prepared to lie (apart from anything else) to achieve this. The problem is, what price "evidence" then? What happens as a result of the determination to hold the line, never admit anything, always trash the opponent - label them frauds, incompetents and liars? You use the "people will die" tactic to usurp all reasonable conversation about what else the products might do except prevent disease. It is not only bare-faced deceit, it is deliberately screwing the evidence base.

Linda1

So we had a physician and his sidekick show up to divert and distract from the article which showed the main vaccine industry spokesman confessing that he regularly lies to the media about the measles vaccine and instructing others to follow his example, with the NYU head of bioethics evilly laughing about being unethical in order to sell vaccines. This wasn't about how dangerous measles is. This was about how dangerous the people who peddle the measles and other vaccines are. So what did our visitors prove? That there are more charlatans than were up on that stage.

RCP

@ kws

I'm just across the lake from you;)

sorry for going OT but do these numbers include home-schooled kids?

If not, this is a gross underestimate for the autism numbers.

Out of 11 ASD children (now teens) that I have stayed in touch with from elementary school, 9 of them have opted for either charter school (4 HFA completely mainstreamed in elementary school) or home-school (5 in elementary special day class) after 5th grade due to the sorry state of our middle schools here. The 2 girls that remain in public school are sisters, and their mother is extremely unhappy with their programs but she says she's too exhausted and broke to figure out other options.

Or does it include those that are in residential placement due to parents being unable to handle their aggression/behaviors (I know 2 kids who were so placed at age 16 who are now early 20's).

It's horrifying either way, and it's only going to get worse with SB277.

Kws

Worn out ?
Tell Paul and Julie not to send a boy on a man's job.

And don't forget your flu shot

Pam

Notice how "Curt Watkins" posted
"That's the problem with Google university. You think you know, but you don't know."

Then in his last post (hopefully), he recommends doing a "Goggle search"

I doubt that "Curt" is a doctor. . It appears more that he came to this site having no clue and wanting to begin an arguement with people here & those who write for AOA, who have been studying & writing about this subject for decades.....many who really ARE doctors, scientists, chemists,, nurses, educators, legal scholars, etc.


Thank you for this article, Nancy & thank you AoA for all of your terrific reporting & articles!
People could really learn a lot from all these articles at AoA, the Vaxxed team, and RFK, Jr.....you all have hearts of gold & so much compassion for all the children & adults suffering from disabilities & those who have died from their vaccines.....and you are all devoting most of your time to put a stop to it!! Cannot thank you all enough! :)

Curt Watkins

Whyser says

"But that won't work in a developing country".

How then did central and south america eliminate measles? Smallpox? Rubella? Polio? 'Cause they sure as hell didn't eliminate poverty. I'd say your understanding about vaccinations and immune function in impoverished countries could stand for some revisions

John Stone accuses me of "intimidating people and telling them shut up". Exactly where did I do this? Perhaps it is next to the ad hominem he accused me of. Is showing people where they made a mistake a form of intimidation? Is bringing facts to a discussion intimidating for you John?

I am offended that you think I dont give "a snuff" about neurologic injury. You know nothing about me. What I think is that in your mind you NEED to vilify me so as to block out my attempt to penetrate your personal echo chamber with some reality. It would have been easier just to block my posts, eh? Tell me you dont do that.

I apologize for my rant directed at John. He has falsely accused me of bullying, not caring, population control, BS, and ad hominem arguments (aghast!). Who is the bully John?

Curt

Linda1

"I have had enough here. You have worn me out. Perhaps I have encouraged a few to reconsider their attitude towards the seriousness of measles."

No, what you have done is further alienated readers from ever wanting to seek the services of someone like you. I've had enough of you too.

kws

Dr. Watkins has not fully disclosed how many scripts he writes for Merck each year.

He has not disclosed that the more children with dysfunctional immune systems, the more money he makes.

He has not disclosed how much Merck paid him to troll this site.

It looks like the numbers went up again, about 3.2 million kids in America. Feel free to adjust RCP, I trust you, not the guy in the white coat driving the Porche. have a wonderful evening,

California Dept of Education 2016-17
Intellectual Disability 43,978
Hard of Hearing 10,528
Deaf 3,346
Speech or Language Impairment 160,024
Visual Impairment 3,565
Emotional Disturbance 24,560
Orthopedic Impairment 11,153
Other Health Impairment 90,692
Specific Learning Disability 293,231
Deaf- Blindness 51
Multiple Disability 6,887
Autism 104,573
Traumatic Brain Injury 1,689
  Total   754,277

Extrapolate Autism/Speech to US Since CDC
data is fraudulent garbage 3,215,030

John Stone

The trouble with Curt and ndavis is they don't give a stuff about how much neurological damage is inflicted on our children by vaccines or by not investigating vaccines properly. It is alright just to go round intimidating people and telling them shut up just so long as program marches on. It isn't about science at all, it is about BS and bullying, and population control. I don't want anybody to die of anything, but for God's sake listen when people are teling you the products are going wrong!

There is nothing about the way Offit and Caplan and Pan have conducted themselves which is in ordinary terms defensible.

Curt Watkins

Linda,

"eradication of the measles, didn't happen, even in 100% vaccinated populations."

Didn't happen? Uhh, how do you explain this?:

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-27/measles-declared-eradicated-in-the-americas

If, as you say, vaccine immunity does not provide lasting immunity, how did the US eliminate sustained transmission in 2000 followed by the rest of North and South America by 2016? Answer: They did it by vaccinating everyone twice. In the US the second vaccine was recommended in 1989. 11 years later: Poof. Measles gone. First Smallpox. Next up , soon hopefully, polio. Then measles and Rubella. Then we could do away with the measles vaccine.

Turns out we want the same thing.

Anecdotes do not make for strong evidence, but I received the measles vaccine in 1965. I never caught measles. I've never been exposed as far as I know. A couple years ago my hospital required documentation of immunity or vaccination. I had my antibody titers drawn, and turns out I still have plenty. That is one damn long lasting vaccine.

I know this is going to sound like blasphemy to you, but your assertion that natural immunity is somehow superior to vaccine induced immunity is not based in reality. Your lymphocytes do not care. Many vaccines induce immune responses that are long lasting, some do not (flu shot for example). each case is different. Vaccinations do come with side effects, and there have been unintended consequences. Medicine learns, it builds on prior knowledge.

I have had enough here. You have worn me out. Perhaps I have encouraged a few to reconsider their attitude towards the seriousness of measles.

I thank the editors for letting my comments through. Dissenting views , even sarcastic and insulting ones, preferably with facts in hand, are important for promoting truth.

Curt

One last thing for those of you hoping for natural immunity. Goggle search: SSPE + Measles + Parents + experience + Sarah Walton

ndavis

Linda1 commented on a 1984 modeling study which was obviated by the 1989 recommendation for a second dose of MMR. The authors of a more recent study (2015) of measles virus transmission concluded that "as vaccination makes preventable illness rarer . . . it also increases the expected severity of each case. Because estimates of case risks rely on data for severity generated during a pre-vaccine era they underestimate negative outcomes in the modern post-vaccine epidemiological landscape. Physicians and parents should understand when making decisions about their children’s health and safety that remaining unvaccinated in a predominantly vaccine-protected community exposes their children to the most severe possible outcomes for many preventable diseases. [Fefferman NH, Naumova EN. Dangers of vaccine refusal near the herd immunity threshold: a modelling study. Lancet Infect Dis. 2015 Aug;15(8):922-6.]

I've seen many posts that suggest that, based on data from previous decades, measles is relatively benign. Such Brady Bunch arguments ignore the recent data that suggest instead that the death rate from measles is now much higher than it was in the prevaccine era. For example, the death rates in the most recent large outbreak in Minnesota, in California, and the ongoing outbreak in Romania were on the order of one in two hundred and fifty cases. This is, likely, because--due to vaccination--healthy school-age kids no longer get the measles, so the cases now occur mostly among the most vulnerable.

whyser

@Curt Watkins,

"Poor nutrition PLUS measles is very bad, I think we agree on that. But unless you think fixing poor nutrition is just around the corner, then blaming measles death on poor nutritional status is simply a rationalization on your part allowing you to hold onto the mistaken belief that measles is not a threat."

As an MD, allergist, and immunologist, shouldn't you know that a vaccine isn't going to fix anything either? I mean, why is malnourishment and malnuritional status such a factor for death rates?

Because their bodies LACK the RESOURCES to mount an EFFECTIVE response to a disease, amongst other issues. This is why, when you compare the mortality rate stats of the US prior to the measles vaccine (close to 1 in 10,000) and compare it to a developing country, it is very obvious that developed countries with good socioeconomic conditions and good nutrition and general health have much lower mortality rates than developing countries.

Often I see two different arguments being presented during these kinds of debates: one is mortality rates and the other is incident rates. Improvement in living conditions is what brought down the mortality rate of the US and UK DOWN by over 95% when comparing the early 1900s to prior to the introduction of the vaccine. How do we know that we wouldn't have reduced the mortality rates by another 95% or more in the last 55 years after the vaccine was introduced? If we experienced 400 deaths, imagine if society were able to reduce it down to 20 deaths/year without the vaccine... and with 4,000,000 cases, that would mean a death rate of 1 in 200,000. Still deadly?

Vaccines do not affect mortality rates. They affect incident rates. Yes, vaccines help the immune system prevent a measles infection (the duration is unknown but we do know scientifically that it is waning due to lack of natural exposure). The lowered number of incidents, with the same mortality rate, will definitely show that the vaccine reduced the overall number of deaths.

But that won't work in a developing country. When the immune system's health is fundamentally supported by a person's nutritional status, all we are doing by vaccinating them is profiting off their fears. Even if they've developed both celluar and humoral responses against measles due to the vaccine, what GOOD is it if their immune system is MALNOURISHED? They are essentially immunocompromised because they lack the resources to maintain a healthy and robust immune system.

Linda1

Curt Watkins,
This is getting boring because you are deliberately not seeing the whole issue. I've already said what has to be said. You aren't listening.

One more time: The vaccine destroyed herd immunity and surprise, surprise, what was supposed to be lifetime immunity from the vaccine and eradication of the measles, didn't happen, even in 100% vaccinated populations. Now because of the vaccine we have vulnerable adults and infants. The vaccine at first was touted as a one injection eradication of measles. Didn't work so they added a booster. Now they know that vaccination doesn't work in, what, 5%? at all, and they have no earthly idea if continuous boosters will work or even be safe going into old age. That's the problem, Curt. They led humanity off a cliff. And that isn't even taking into account the massive carnage the trivalent MMR has caused. That's why your generation is now vulnerable to measles. Because you should have had it as a child, as nature intended. As Dr. Wakefield has pointed out, (paraphrasing, he is much more eloquent than I) - 'You screw with viruses that you don't understand, and mother nature will win, every time.'

Did you know that the MMR, a combination of 3 live viruses, was never tested as a combination drug before approval? True. The 3 vaccines were tested individually but not combined. Meanwhile, back in the day, if a child caught wild measles, mumps and rubella all at once, they'd be in a bad way. But no one thought to test the trivalent live viral vaccine in combination. Turns out some kids don't do very well.

Try to see the whole picture.

Curt Watkins

Linda
RE the future of measles. 1984 American Journal of Epidemiology.

This raises valid concerns. You are a little late to the party, however. 27 years late. This waning immunity problem was recognized, and it was addressed in 1989 by the addition of the second dose of MMR at age 11-12 (the second dose has since been moved to age 5)

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/84/6/1110.long

See also this article for a little history of the measles vaccine:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4418682/#i1551-6776-20-2-144-b13

This is the problem with Google university. You think you know, but you don't know.

Curt

Curt Watkins

RCP

"I never said measles was a benign disease; Merck did."

You left out a few important aspects , chiefly the word "Usually" . It may surprise you to find that I agree with the statement that measles is USUALLY a benign illness.

Courtesy of Michael down thread, here is what the 1950 Merck manual actually said (all caps are mine):

"Measles USUALLY is a benign infection with a low mortality
rate and one attack apparently confers lifelong immunity.
However, the disease may be followed, particularly in infants,
by bronchopneumonia and other bacterial infections which may
be fatal. Postmeasles encephalitis, which also may be fatal,
occurs only about once in 1,200 to 1,500 cases".

Not sure how you got benign out of that description, but we all have different perceptions of risk.

Curt

Curt Watkins

Hera,

Thank you for linking that article. A great example of the ongoing effort to find improved vaccines and schedules. I am afraid you misread the trial design. All participants were vaccinated. There was no non-treatment group (that would have been highly unethical) so your statement "If you want to produce absolutely no change in mortality outcomes, give them either nothing, or the Schwarz vaccine. It makes no difference" is erroneous.

You seem to be claiming that the high titer vaccine somehow caused more mortality. This too is erroneous.

The trial did find higher mortality with vaccinating at 5 months with the High titer vaccines vs vaccinating with the Schwarz vaccine at 10 months. You state: "If you want to increase the amount of children you kill in a high natural measles infection area, give them the Edmonston vaccine.". The trial design does not permit this conclusion to be made. Perhaps the Schwarts vaccine is superior in protecting, but more likely the improved survival seen by vaccinating at 10 months is because the measles vaccine does not work very well at 5 months. Many of the recipients are going to fail to respond, leaving them unprotected from infection later on.

Curt

Curt Watkins

Linda

"Lots of healthcare workers do not take care of themselves, eat poorly, are obese, abuse substances, and have all kinds of issues."

Even more reason to maintain high vaccine coverage rates. Poor nutrition is bad. I agree. Poor nutrition PLUS measles is very bad, I think we agree on that. But unless you think fixing poor nutrition is just around the corner, then blaming measles death on poor nutritional status is simply a rationalization on your part allowing you to hold onto the mistaken belief that measles is not a threat. It is clearly a threat, especially (but not exclusively) to vulnerable groups: immunocompromized, chronically ill, malnourished, and lets not forget infants. And where did you get it in your head that the three health care workers who died were malnourished or in poor health? You cant just make up facts. "They died, therefore they must have been malnourished"? That is circular logic. For arguments sake, lets say they were malnourished. Does that make their PREVENTABLE deaths somehow justified? What about the infants who died? Did they somehow earn their fate?

Curt

Linda1

Curt Watkins,
American Journal of Epidemiology, July 1984, a quarter of a decade after the measles vaccine experiment was implemented, predicted the dire outcome we are beginning to realize. A glimpse of the mess man has made, not unlike what he did with the reckless overuse of antibiotics:

Am J Epidemiol. 1984 Jul;120(1):39-48.
The future of measles in highly immunized populations. A modeling approach.
Levy DL.
Abstract
Little is known about how an intensive measles elimination program changes the overall immune status of the population. A computer model was created to study the effect of the measles elimination program in the United States on the number of susceptibles in the population. The simulation reveals that in the prevaccine era, approximately 10.6% of the population was susceptible to measles, most of whom were children less than 10 years of age. With the institution of the measles immunization program, the proportion of susceptibles in the population fell to 3.1% from 1978 through 1981, but then began to rise by approximately 0.1% per year to reach about 10.9% in the year 2050. The susceptibles at this time were distributed evenly throughout all age groups. The model did not consider the potential effect of waning immunity. The results of this study suggest that measles elimination in the United States has been achieved by an effective immunization program aimed at young susceptibles combined with a highly, naturally immunized adult population. However, despite short-term success in eliminating the disease, long-range projections demonstrate that the proportion of susceptibles in the year 2050 may be greater than in the prevaccine era. Present vaccine technology and public health policy must be altered to deal with this eventuality.
PMID: 6741921
[Indexed for MEDLINE]

Laura Hayes

In addition to all of the excellent comments posted by AoA readers to Curt Watkins, here is another important point to consider, the misdiagnosis of measles.

Below is an excerpt from an article I wrote after the "outbreak" of measles at Disneyland (tragically ironic how all of these "experts" continue to remain silent about the OUTBREAK of autism, with 7,400+ cases diagnosed per month in the U.S., probably more now as that number is based on the CDC's 1 in 45 stat from a few years ago...not to mention OUTBREAKS of other vaccine-induced disorders, illnesses, and premature deaths).

http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/disney-measles-and-the-fantasyland-of-vaccine-perfection.html

"2. Did you know that historical statistical figures for reported measles cases have been fraught with error? For but one example, I will refer to doctor-diagnosed "measles" cases in the UK in the late 1990s, where a serious problem emerged. A government scientist discovered that only 1 in 40 reported cases of measles was actually confirmed to be measles after lab testing. This discovery throws into question historical, and current, figures for measles. If reported cases are not required to be lab-confirmed, then this scientist’s discovery would lead us to believe that there has been gross over-reporting of measles cases, past and present.

Daily Telegraph 8 January 1997 London (Europe Today): "97.5% of the times that British doctors diagnose measles they are wrong", says a publication of the Public Health Laboratory service. The mistake being made by National Health GP's was found when the services tested the saliva of more than 12,000 children who had been diagnosed as having measles. Roger Buttery, an adviser on transmissible diseases at the Cambridge and Huntingdon Health Department, said that the majority of doctors "say they can recognize measles a mile off, but we now know that this illness occurs only in 2.5% of the cases." Buttery says that doctors classify as measles many other viruses that also cause spots. He found eight different viruses during the survey in East Anglia. One of them, parvovirus, gives symptoms similar to German measles. The reason for the high rate of error puzzled Buttery. "Doctors are neither vague nor careless," he said. The solution is to defer the diagnosis until more detailed information can be got. There are 5,000 to 6,000 cases of measles registered each year in the United Kingdom, but these findings now call most of them into doubt."

Geez, ever wonder if that might be happening at Disneyland, and beyond...and for multiple diseases against which we vaccinate, including the "flu"?"

Additionally, doctors fail/refuse to report vaccine-induced cases of measles, as either a case of measles, or as a case of vaccine failure. They should report such cases as both, should being the operative word there.

Hera

Hi Curt Watkins, you somehow missed the very relevant peer reviewed journal article I quoted for you, ( with the link, so you can read the whole thing yourself)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/014067369191771L

To again quote from the article

"The use of Edmonston-Zagreb high-titre (EZ-HT) vaccine at age 6 months has been recommended for countries in which measles before the age of 9 months is a substantial cause of death, but little is known about the long-term effects of high-titre live measles vaccines given early in life. In a randomised vaccine trial in a rural area of Senegal, children were randomly assigned at birth to three vaccine groups: EZ-HT at 5 months (n=336); Schwarz high-titre (SW-HT) at 5 months (n=321); and placebo at 5 months followed by standard low-titre Schwarz vaccine at 10 months (standard: n=358)."

So, to paraphrase ( a lot) there were three groups given either the high titre measles vaccine ( Edmonston Zagreb ) a low titre Schwarz vaccine ( also a measles vaccine) or a placebo then vaccination at 10 months with the Scwarz.
What were the results?

If you want to increase the amount of children you kill in a high natural measles infection area, give them the Edmonston vaccine.

If you want to produce absolutely no change in mortality outcomes, give them either nothing, or the Schwarz vaccine. It makes no difference.

(I wonder if giving them vitamin A would have actually made a difference? )

(Mercks GSK MMR contains the Scwarz measles strain)

So , the risks versus benefits becomes clear in a situation where live measles virus is rampant. You can kill people best in such a situation by giving them a high titre vaccine. ( Edmonston) Who knew high titres were so dangerous?
If you plan on not killing them ( but not saving any lives either) you give them the Schwarz vaccine.

By the way, all those immune compromised kids who can't be vaccinated that you want to protect? You do realize that no one is checking infants for most autoimmune diseases before they vaccinate, first one, the Hep B given on the day of birth, don't you?

So some of them are probably becoming long term live virus carriers courtesy of live virus vaccines.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1045105606000303

They include a rare case of long-term virus excretion by a healthy child recently found in Ireland and the case with the longest period of vaccine-derived poliovirus excretion by an immunodeficient individual ever known, 18 years.

Actually, though another vaccinated patient has carried vaccine derived polio virus for 25 years. If you are interested, I'll track it down.
Interested in your thoughts,
Hera

RCP

I never said measles was a benign disease; Merck did. Oh the irony!

What I said was that in MOST people, measles is a mild disease, and I backed up that statement with two prevaccine era scientific medical journal references. Hundreds of people died, yes, but the death rate was 0.2%, which does square the fact that 99.8% = most people.

The early 1990's outbreak happened because of waning immunity in the vaccinated, and because vaccinated mothers were for the first time not able to transfer natural immunity to their infants. This was when and why they added the second MMR booster. Many of the deaths were in infants too young to be vaccinated.

In the prevaccination era, these infants would have been protected by the mother's natural immunity, and vaccination has shifted the risk of measles to those who are more susceptible to dying from it.

Yes, measles can be deadly. So can Candida, but I wasn't on CNN the last time I had a yeast infection.

Linda1

Curt Watkins,

"Do you think the situation is any different currently? And I do not concede that poor nutrition is the reason so many died in the 1989-1991 California epidemic. Did you know that three of the deaths in that epidemic were hospital staff? Do you think they were malnourished?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1307555/pdf/westjmed00347-0082.pdf

"Further, a vivid demonstration of the danger posed by measles to
medical staff is that in this epidemic more than 150 cases
were reported among medical staff; 3 of these died, 1 was
left paralyzed, and another recovered only after severe
ARDS developed that required ventilatory support for
several weeks."
---------------------------

Now ask yourself: How did we find ourselves in this predicament where adults do not have natural immunity to measles? Because pre vaccine, almost all had the infection and life long immunity by the time they were 15, according to the CDC. And in the good old days of real herd immunity, newborns were protected for a good 1-2 years by placental transfer of immunity and by breastfeeding (which should be promoted as the most important form of vaccination, and of course isn't, because it would hurt pharmaceutical and medical industry profits in a big way). Vaccinated mothers cannot protect their infants except for an unreliable very short time after birth. A breastfeeding vaccinated mother can likely offer more protection to her infant for as long as she breastfeeds, but nothing like the specific protection that the mother with natural immunity used to provide.

What a mess human hubris has made. Humans are their own worst enemy.

Oh, and about those unfortunate health care workers. Lots of healthcare workers do not take care of themselves, eat poorly, are obese, abuse substances, and have all kinds of issues. Physicians have the highest suicide rate of any profession, with approximately 1 committing suicide per day. That can be attributable to depression which suppresses the immune system and increases susceptibility to infection.

So yes, measles in 2017 is not as benign as it was in the pre vaccine era. The question is - how did we get from 1960 when it was mostly benign to now? We should learn from our mistakes. There are almost 300 vaccines in the pipeline. There's an old saying about tampering with mother nature. LEARN.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/806779-overview

Curt Watkins

Michael

"Accepting the premise that measles can be either benign for some and not innocuous for others,"

Thank you. That is all I have been trying to get across.

Linda1

"In food deserts, definitely. With increasing exposure to glyphosate that chelates minerals in the gut, yes. In children eating nutrient deficient processed school lunches out of a can, yes."

Do you think the situation is any different currently? And I do not concede that poor nutrition is the reason so many died in the 1989-1991 California epidemic. Did you know that three of the deaths in that epidemic were hospital staff? Do you think they were malnourished?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1307555/pdf/westjmed00347-0082.pdf

"Further, a vivid demonstration of the danger posed by measles to
medical staff is that in this epidemic more than 150 cases
were reported among medical staff; 3 of these died, 1 was
left paralyzed, and another recovered only after severe
ARDS developed that required ventilatory support for
several weeks."

NOT BENIGN

Curt

Grace Green

As Germany prepares to make measles vaccination mandatory for adults I'm wondering what is this obsession with measles. Someone commented on AofA recently that the BCG vaccination (for tuberculosis) is no longer on the schedule (either in the UK or the USA). I'm not advocating the use of the BCG vaccination, but this seems surprising since TB is a highly contagious disease which killed far more people than measles ever did. I'm wondering if something has been put in the measles vaccine that we don't know about. Just a conspiracy theory - nothing weird. I wonder what Mr. Watkins makes of this?

ATSC


Curt,

"there were hundreds of deaths in the US each year from measles prior to the introduction of the vaccine in 1963"

If you imagine everyone in the US ate well in the 60s and no one suffered from malnutrition, you should watch this documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h94bq4JfMAA

CBS Documentary "Hunger in America" 1968


michael

@ Curt

From the 1950 Merck Manual of Diseases:

Measles
Prognosis

Measles usually is a benign infection with a low mortality
rate and one attack apparently confers lifelong immunity.
However, the disease ma 3 ^ be followed, particularly in infants,
by bronchopneumonia and other bacterial infections which may
be fatal. Postmeaslcs encephalitis, which also may be fatal,
occurs only about once in 1,200 to 1,500 cases

I will let the above paragraph speak for itself. The parents I know who have read extensively the medical literature and declined the MMR do so expecting their child will succumb to the "often" but not always benign infection, but those parents usually possess knowledge and skills of other medical modalities/philosophies that will support a child's immune system as they experience measles and recover with "I believe" a more robust immune system for whatever immunologic challenges lie ahead. We all want healthy children to grow up to become healthy adults.

I am going to "speculate" that some parents who decline the MMR might do the measles component, but decline the mumps and rubella. Accepting the premise that measles can be either benign for some and not innocuous for others, breaking the MMR to individual components and allowing parents to exercise informed consent on timing and selection of which antigen, certainly would be a welcomed change in federal policy which is what Dr. Wakefield suggested should be done.

One-size-does-not-fit-all in any other area of medicine except in vaccinations.

My two cents.

Linda1

Curt Watkins,
It is wrong headed to look at one vaccine, because children don't receive one vaccine. You have to look at all that are given, at the timing, the order, whether they are live or killed, considering possible interactions with each other and with other drugs (such as acetaminophen) and the effect on the immune system, development, morbidity and mortality.

"Do you think that poor nutrition was a widespread problem in California in 1989?"

In food deserts, definitely. With increasing exposure to glyphosate that chelates minerals in the gut, yes. In children eating nutrient deficient processed school lunches out of a can, yes.

Curt Watkins

Thank you nDavis for those sobering statistics.

RCP-
You continue to promulgate the view that measles is benign . 27 dead in Romania. 75 dead in the California outbreak. There was a miscarriage in the small 2013 Brooklyn NY outbreak. Benign illnesses do not kill people. Do you think that poor nutrition was a widespread problem in California in 1989?

You state "in most individuals with good nutrition and sanitation, measles is a mild disease, provides permanent immunity, and allows naturally immune mothers to protect their infants from measles infection". How do you square this statement with the fact that there were hundreds of deaths in the US each year from measles prior to the introduction of the vaccine in 1963?

I understand that the risk has to be part of the risk/benefit analysis. I have specifically avoided getting into the risk issue with you all because 1) my original point was to point out the fallacy, widely expressed here, that measles is benign and 2) I don't want to argue with this audience about the risks of MMR. We would not even be able to agree on basic facts (for example, the findings of the DeStefano paper), so I'm pretty sure it would be a fruitless exercise.

Regarding your quibbling about deaths total vs "deaths in children". I concede. I was using hyperbole and I will try to be more careful. And you are also correct that "Zero deaths " in the US is not correct. There was a death in 2015. And a few others over the years since endemic transmission was eliminated in the US in 2000. I am guilty of rounding the annual average of deaths from the last 17 years from less than one death per year down to zero deaths per year. You sure got me on that.


You linked a study of the DPT in Guinea implicating DPT recipients had increased mortality. I dont know what that has to do with the Measles, but I took a look anyway.

"We examined mortality for children aged 2-8 months who had received DTP and compared them with children who had not been vaccinated because they were absent, vaccines were not available, or they were sick."

If you think that that trial design can say ANYTHING about why these two groups had different mortality, then you have a seriously crappy logic circuits. Really.......

Susan disagrees with me therefore I am "completely and utterly unable to see a bigger picture".? Nice closed minded thinking there susan. Enjoy your echo chamber. ( I know that that was snarky, but she cut off the discussion, so my promise to be cordial to her is no longer in force. I will attempt to remain cordial with the rest of you).

Curt

Hans Litten

http://vaxxter.com/stanford-scientist-claims-human-fetal-dna-fragments-in-vaccines-cause-autism/

Dr. Theresa Deisher, a Ph.D. in Molecular and Cellular Physiology from Stanford University has put forth a theory that human DNA fragments in vaccines could be one of the causes of autism. Deischer is a well accomplished and respected scientist. She has over 19 years of commercial biotechnology history and her research has often led to clinical trials.

“It is possible that these contaminating fragments could be incorporated into a child’s genome and disrupt normal gene function, leading to autistic phenotypes.”

Being that she’s a well-respected and incredibly accomplished scientist, she’s been somewhat left alone regarding her research into vaccines, which was done several years ago. These days, your entire life can be sabotaged for even suggesting that vaccines cause autism. Most of the current studies regarding the matter are sponsored by pharmaceutical companies. The justification of mass vaccine is, at its very core, a financial play by these mega-pharmaceutical corporations.

RCP

Measles as a mild disease

PMID: 14462171

Dr. AD Langmuir (regarded as the father of infectious disease epidemiology & director of epidemiology at what is now CDC)

In 1962, he describes measles as a “self-limiting infection of short duration, moderate severity, and low fatality…”
Graph indicated that in early 1960’s the death rate was 0.2/100,000 (2 people out of every one million)

From the BMJ in 1959 PMID: 1992477

measles was “mild,” “commonest disease in the world, very few complications”, “no attempt to prevent the spread”, best age to contract disease was 3-7 years, mothers say how delighted they are at how much good the attack had done their children & how much better they were after the attack

Encephalitis PMID: 9243237

Measles, mumps, and rubella induced encephalitis cases dropped after vaccination program introduced, but total encephalitis cases remained the same because other microbes had filled the vacuum left by the drop in the vaccine targeted microbes. (in other words, the people who developed measles encephalitis still developed encephalitis in spite of the drop in measles—they just reacted to a different virus like herpes, etc.)

Laura Hayes

Just as I did after Paul Offit spoke at NYU's Langone School of Medicine a few months ago, I called the Office of the President at NYU again yesterday to alert them to the comments made by Arthur Caplan at the meeting covered in this article...reminding them that Art Caplan is a "bioethicist" (nothing ethical about his statement that "you gotta fight unfair").

I spoke with Kyle again in President Hamilton's office. She was polite and seemingly receptive to what I had to say. I explained to her how she could locate this article by Nancy Hokkanen, and that President Hamilton needs to take action when someone affiliated with NYU as a bioETHICIST is making statements such as Arthur Caplan did.

If you would like to call, too, to register your disgust and dismay, you can find the number you need in my article about NYU hosting Offit:

http://www.ageofautism.com/2016/11/laura-hayes-asks-nyu-president-about-controversial-anti-medical-rights-lecture.html#more

Linda1

Curt Watkins,

"I challenge you to find a pediatrician with pre-vaccine experience and ask them about treating measles. If anyone cares to argue that measles is not occasionally a very serious disease, then I would be happy to engage in a discussion. I'll check back."

I gave you a substantial list of doctors expressing their professional opinion, several pediatricians among them, several days ago. But you are above looking at youtube videos. You have your eyes glued shut and your ears plugged with cement. You are clinging to your paradigm and your one track closed mind for dear life.

Forget about measles. Your ignorant arrogance is the reason why your profession is the 3rd leading cause of death in this country.

And that's not ad hominem. THAT'S THE TRUTH.

Hans Litten

ndavis

http://www.naturalnews.com/2017-05-30-vaccine-hoax-unveiled-as-rigorous-scientific-study-finds-no-reduction-in-measles-mumps-rubella-influenza-or-rotavirus-among-vaccinated-children.html

The study, published in the Journal of Translational Science by epidemiologists from the School of Public Health at the Jackson State University, reported no reductions in the incidence of measles, mumps, rubella, influenza, or rotavirus among vaccinated children. Furthermore, the team of scientists, led by the renowned epidemiologist Dr. Anthony Mawson, concluded that vaccines may be the culprit of the dramatic rise of neurodevelopmental disorders (NDDs) and chronic illnesses such as allergies, autism, and ADHD.

Mercky Business

ndavis

Are you by any chance anything to do with Lord Justice (Nigel) Davis who pulled the plug on the MMR litigation and claimed not to be aware that his brother Crispin, CEO of Reed Elsevier, proprietor of the Lancet, was also a director of GSK?

John Stone

ndavis

Well, I don't think that's a great success for the US health system. With all the lies and propaganda about Andrew Wakefield in the UK (who advocated single vaccines) and the claims that he damaged the vaccine program we have only had three deaths from people contracting measles in the UK since 1998 (out of approx 10m deaths, present population 64m) - all three were very sick people - and one at least was really more a case of medical negligence. There is great deal to be said for the NHS even though it is now being debauched by government and pharma. The one stick model of vaccines as an answer to infectious disease is ridiculous.

On the other hand the child population is in meltdown from NDDs - no one has any explanation, no one wants to look at it. No one dares.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-deaths-by-age-group-from-1980-to-2013-ons-data/measles-deaths-by-age-group-from-1980-to-2013-ons-data
(see comments beneath table)

http://www.ageofautism.com/2017/05/10000-new-cases-of-autism-in-london-a-year-as-bureaucrats-plan-to-dump-children.html

http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2449/rr-5

susan welch

Curt, 'Happy to engage in discussion' - I don't think so! I'm not sure I have ever come across anyone, except maybe Dorit R, who gives an appearance of being reasonable but is, in fact, completely and utterly unable to see a bigger picture.

I most certainly give up on any discussion with you.

Pam

I must say that the videos in this article are So well done...terrific!!
"We've looked and looked, and we have found no link between MMR & autism."
What MONSTERS these people are.
Yes, CDC looked for an association between the MMR & autism, and when they found it (especially high risk in young black children)...they threw a trash can party to destroy the evidence. How's that for racism!?

Apparently exposing these monsters has touched a nerve with someone posting.

I suppose providing clean water, nutrititious food, sanitation & less crowded living conditions for those in other nations confronting disease, doesn't get as much Gov't $$$ as distributing pHARMa's toxic needles. I'll just leave these links here....

An Interview With Dr. Archie Kalkerinos
http://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork.com/an-interview-with-dr-archie-kalokerinos-md/
"I can show some slides about measles & how they misrepresented the situation in Africa. You CANNOT immunize sick children, malnourished children, and expect to get away with it. You'll kill far more children than would have died from the natural infection."
Dr. Kalokerinos

WHO Reluctant To Suspend Vaccines After 26 Children Die In Developed World - Children Being Used As Guinea Pigs
https://vactruth.com/2013/04//02/who-suspends-vaccine/
"It has become second nature for the likes of WHO & UNICEF to offer free trial & banned vaccinations to poor & vulnerable populations in the developed world. These are God's children too, and they are very precious. They are not lab rats or guinea pigs to be tested on at leisure.

36 Syrian children died following measles vaccination, with many more hospitalized. There's a list a mile long of stories of infant deaths following "routine" vaccinations.

Is it really any wonder the Gov't in India took the Gates Foundation to court for all the child maimings & deaths from his vaccine program$??

MMR= Maiming Millions Regularly

ndavis

Curt Watkins wrote: "it really gets my goat when someone claims that measles is this benign illness, shrugging off a one in 3,000 (or 1 in 10,000) case fatality rate for developed countries."

It's worth comparing historical death rates from measles to more modern statistics. In the 1989-1991 California outbreak of measles, the death rate from measles was about one in 219 (16,400 cases, 75 deaths.) During the last large measles outbreak in Minnesota, the death rate was one in 153 (460 cases, 3 deaths.) During the current measles outbreak in Romania, the death rate from measles virus infection is about 1/238 (6434 cases, 27 deaths.)

RCP

Well, if you had taken the time to watch any of Dr. Humphries' videos, you would know that she backs up all of her statements with citations from peer-reviewed medical & scientific journals where you can verify the information yourself. Also, the article I linked has 60 journal references.

Measles vaccination temporarily interrupts disease transmission, and has lessened the incidence of measles. No argument there.

What you are failing to grasp is that in most individuals with good nutrition and sanitation, measles is a mild disease, provides permanent immunity, and allows naturally immune mothers to protect their infants from measles infection. There is also evidence that natural measles infection lowers the risk of heart disease, autoimmune disorders, and cancers later in life. Citations are in the video, book, and article I linked to. I too do not have time to go back and dig out all of those citations for you.

You cannot discuss the necessity of giving a medical intervention by only looking at the benefit without also looking at the risk. That's a ridiculous stance to take.

Where in the world do you get your facts that after the vaccine there have been zero deaths from measles? You just posted that a German mother died from measles last week! How many people have died from the measles vaccine? Don't they count? FYI, my son is vaccinated, and he has autoimmune encephalitis (among many other health problems that developed after vaccination). Does he not count either?

You do realize that the original killed measles vaccine actually caused many cases of atypical measles (which were much more severe than typical measles)? Or that there are cases of measles today verified by PCR that are caused by vaccine strain measles?

And you disagree that vaccines can cause illness? Have you ever looked at a vaccine insert? at VAERS?

Doctors like you with a myopic view of disease are the reason our country is in such poor health. Again, the CDC stats do not indicate that the deaths were in children. And we have no way of knowing what the circumstances of the health of those that died were and if they would have died from another non-vaccine preventable infection.

Also, you don't want to discuss the fact that vaccination is creating superbugs that are mutating in response to the vaccine? Or that vaccinated people cannot mount an effective immune response to other strains of the antigen that are not included in the vaccine?

You will note that none of the above points even discuss the exploding autism epidemic, which we surely cannot fail to take into account in any risk/benefit analysis.

You are so concerned with third world countries; how about asking these mothers how wonderful vaccination was for them?

The introduction of diphtheria- tetanus-pertussis vaccine and child mortality in rural Guinea-Bissau: an observational study. International Journal of Epidemiology. 2004 Apr;33(2):374-80. PMID 15082643

It really gets my goat when anyone (especially an immunologist) denies vaccine-induced injury or death.

John Stone

Curt

Yes, this is pure BS:

"Just getting caught up on all your posts. Whew!. I'm overwhelmed. So many falsehoods, so little time. I can see why dissenting voices don't stick around here . I know you all want to educate me on the dangers of vaccines (FYI, you tube links are not going to get you taken seriously). That debate will have to wait for another day. As I said, I dont want to argue about the numerator aspect of the Risk/Benefit ratio of vaccinating our children (all mine are fully vaccinated by the way)."

Curt Watkins

John Stone,

Care to point out where I made an ad hominem argument?

My point is that measles can be dangerous. I cited the example of a recent death in Germany and I cited CDC death statistics and the testimony of a doctor who worked in a Cincinnati hospital prior to the introduction of the vaccine.

So far, the counter argument has mostly been along the lines "vaccines cause lots of illness". I disagree, but that does not refute my point. There is also a fair amount of "in my (limited) experience, measles weren't so bad", as if "as I recall" is some valid form of data collection. I've also heard Measles kills, but only if you are already sick or immunocompromised (OK, that is only partially true. Measles can kill previously healthy children and adults. Tim Lundeen seems to have forgotten that infants under age one fall into the category of especially vulnerable. Silly me for worrying about the welfare of infants and patients on chemo or with immunodeficiencies). I've heard "Fake News" (Actually the quote was "Bull S***", thank you Barry). I've heard measles kills, but only the poor and malnourished (this argument earned CIA Parker my scorn for being indifferent and selfish. The "who cares about the third world?" argument is also racist). I've heard "measles kills, but not if you use vitamin A" (I agree it helps, but this is an after the cow is out of the barn approach and will not prevent infections. VitA did not prevent all deaths in this trial: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199007193230304#t=article).

I've heard Adjuvants are bad (sorry no adjuvant in MMR). I've heard that CDC numbers can' be trusted. I've heard doctors cant be trusted (I agree, Andrew Wakefield cant be trusted).

My apologies, but I cannot commit the time required to respond to each and every one of these lines of argument.

I guess I'm tilting at windmills by posting here, but it really gets my goat when someone claims that measles is this benign illness, shrugging off a one in 3,000 (or 1 in 10,000) case fatality rate for developed countries. In the third world the fatality rate is far higher. I challenge you to find a pediatrician with pre-vaccine experience and ask them about treating measles. If anyone cares to argue that measles is not occasionally a very serious disease, then I would be happy to engage in a discussion. I'll check back.

Curt

Linda1

Wow.

Got to "FYI, you tube links are not going to get you taken seriously"
and had a a good laugh. Like I need Curt Watkins' approval.
LOL.

John Stone

Nice ad hominems Curt, and lots airy fairy, unsubstantiated statements.

John Stone, UK Editor

Curt Watkins

Just getting caught up on all your posts. Whew!. I'm overwhelmed. So many falsehoods, so little time. I can see why dissenting voices don't stick around here .

I know you all want to educate me on the dangers of vaccines (FYI, you tube links are not going to get you taken seriously). That debate will have to wait for another day. As I said, I dont want to argue about the numerator aspect of the Risk/Benefit ratio of vaccinating our children (all mine are fully vaccinated by the way). My only reason for posting was to point out that measles can be a deadly disease. That there is a Benefit to vaccinating against measles. That benefit should be obvious. Before vaccine: 400 dead children every year from measles (plus thousands of cases of encephalitis, tens of thousands of cases of pneumonia). After vaccine: None.

It is not possible to make an informed decision about vaccinating if you do not acknowledge there is a benefit from vaccines. Without this acknowledgement, there is no point in discussing the Risk. (I dont want anyone to think I ignore the risk, I just do not want to argue about the real vs perceived risks of the MMR in this format).

Anyone claiming that Measles is not a potentially dangerous disease is ignoring history a well as the easily verifiable impact of more recent outbreaks both in the US and abroad.

The only way such willful ignorance can persist is because we have the privilege of living in a country where this disease has been eliminated (from endemic transmission. Imported outbreaks still occur, obviously. By the way, the fact that sustained transmission of measles has not occurred with US outbreaks, even though vaccination rates are not 100% and the effectiveness of the vaccine is not 100%, is PROOF that herd immunity is real). I'm curious, any of those You Tube videos from doctor's who treat children in countries that don't vaccinate for measles?

Curt

nhokkanen

Curt Watkins comes off like a mother-in-law who wears a white dress to her son's wedding. It's all about him.

I wonder how his relentless one-sided haranguing goes over with patients trying to explain their medical information. Given his example here, it's likely he ignores their input, too, and tries to talk over them instead of listening to their first-hand experiences.

Good luck with that.

RCP

Learning that Curt Watkins is an MD, an allergist and immunologist, makes me very sad.

I appreciate that he was courteous; I think that he originally intended to "educate" us hysterical mothers (and fathers) on the dangers of measles and the miracle of vaccines. He probably thought we had never heard the CDC statistics on how deadly measles supposedly is and how vaccines have saved us all from this horrible disease.

It saddens me because this is the extent of the knowledge that most MD's have of vaccination (Disease bad, vaccine good--here's the schedule).

I would expect an immunologist to have the kind of knowledge that Dr. Suzanne Humphries does, i.e., more than just the stats from the CDC website.

We are weaker because of vaccination (e.g., autoimmunity, linked epitope suppression) and also the viruses and bacteria are outsmarting the vaccines (escape mutants), which is going to lead to massive problems in the future.

I don't know which is worse--that an immunologist's argument for vaccination is simply parroting the CDC website "if 95% of the population is vaccinated, measles will be eradicated from the planet," and "2 shots makes one immune for life"
or that he actually believes this.

Unaware of primary vaccine failure in 2-10%? Secondary vaccine failure (waning immunity) in up to 33%? Unaware of linked epitope suppression & escape mutants? Unaware that waning immunity for measles means that protection at most lasts 25 years? For pertussis, it's probably a few years? Unaware that measles outbreaks have occurred in 100% vaccinated groups? Or that China has a 99% vaccine uptake rate and they are having measles outbreaks?

The 400-500 dead children comment also bothers me. First of all, the CDC did not say children, but people. Still tragic, but what do we know about the 0.2% of people who
died from measles in the 1950s? Were they immunosuppressed?

I ask not because I'm blaming the patient (IGMFU), but because that matters in the risk/benefit analysis. If the 0.2% were immunosuppressed & hadn't gotten measles, then would they have died anyway from the common cold or invasive Candida? If that's the case, then measles eradication wouldn't have saved them.

And also, measles mortality had declined by 98% before the vaccine, and if the curve were extrapolated, then measles would have been "eradicated" without the vaccine by the year 2000. (note that eradicated does not mean zero cases anywhere) Interestingly, the CDC declared measles eradicated in the year 2000.

I feel like I'm rambling and throwing out random facts but in our courteous vaccine discussion, I didn't see any science being discussed--only CDC stats and fear mongering about dead kids.

I hope Dr. Watkins is still reading these comments, and that maybe he might decide to do some research on his own (beyond the CDC website) and learn that vaccination is not the holy grail of medicine.

I recently took my daughter for her first GYN appointment (to my doctor that I've been with for 12 years). She asked if I wanted her to have Gardasil, and when I told her no thank you, she asked why not.

I gave her a 10 minute speech about the deplorable safety studies, the 500 mcg of aluminum, the 43% negative efficacy rate for girls with existing HPV infection, the fact that a severe reaction to Gardasil was 2,300/100,000, while cervical cancer rates were 8/100,000, and that cervical cancer is slow-growing and the vaccine is not necessary if yearly pap smears were performed. (Thank you Dr. Humphries!)

She became increasingly irritated as I was talking, and when I was finished she said that "we have given millions of doses of this vaccine, and there have not been any problems, and I think it's wonderful that we can prevent cancer with a vaccine."

I asked her if she had read the safety studies; she said no. I asked her if she had checked VAERS for Gardasil reactions, and she said no.

I reiterated that I had read them, and I did not feel comfortable with giving the vaccine to my daughter.

Like I said, this was a doctor that I liked, and she knew that I was a chemist. At no time was I belligerent or condescending, but I felt really pressured by her to give the vaccine, and if I didn't have the knowledge about HPV, cervical cancer, and the vaccine (and the experience of caring for my son who was vaccinated against my better judgment and severely injured for it), then I probably would have acquiesced.

I guess my whole point of this story is that doctors need to better understand what it is that they're pushing, and to respect that ultimately it is our decision whether or not to take a medicine and to stop the arrogant "I'm the doctor, take it because I said so" way of practicing medicine. Dr. Moss from WVU talks a lot about medical ethics and 'patient centered care,' and to me this makes him a great doctor--I wish all doctors would practice this way.

ATSC


Curt,

Using the average measles-infected population based on the CDC estimates from the 1960s:

3,500,000 people were infected with measles each year
3,000,000 cases were subclinical or so mild that doctors weren't even consulted
3,452,000 people did not suffer complications
3,499,000 did not develop encephalitis
3,499,550 survived and gained life-long immunity

Conclusion: Measles is not a killer disease, and 99.98714285714286% of the population doesn't need to risk permanent brain-injury or death from the vaccine.

Linda1

Curt Watkins,

"So the next time you hear about how the MMR has some side effect, please ask yourself if the alleged side effect is worse than 400 dead American children every year?"

I don't know who you think you're talking to here. One doesn't have to look long to see that the side effects are worse than 400 dead American children every year. Look in any classroom and you'll see the evidence - millions of children who will never reach their potential - who will never be independent - many who will never speak or hold a job, who are in chronic pain, who can't toilet themselves, who go without medical care because the medical system refuses to declare a glaringly obvious tragic epidemic, who will never live the lives they were meant to live. Go and count the names on the Vaxxed bus, the dead and injured children and adults. Go check VAERS, as imperfect as it is as a reporting system. It does show that children are being maimed and killed every day and that's with only an estimated 1% reporting according to our gov't.

The United States vaccine program has had a catastrophic effect on this population. We have the highest first day of life death rate and the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world. It isn't because all those vaccines are saving lives.

Since the days of 400 deaths from measles per year (if that is an accurate figure considering the source), medicine has since figured out that vitamin A is an effective treatment. So what would the death toll be - if the vaccination program hadn't weakened our population - in our second generation now - by destroying the immune system and herd immunity? You ought to know. You spend your career treating vaccine injury, whether you acknowledge it or not.

If you want to practice medicine instead of Jabism, here are some links that will help you to begin to intelligently and honestly embrace the issue:

See Vaxxed, From Cover-Up to Catastrophe. You need to see the evidence of the CDC's corruption in vaccine research. http://vaxxedthemovie.com/stream/

You say 400 dead children is not ok. That's true. What you're missing is that millions of disabled, sick and dead children is not ok. The vaccine program goes against the first principal of medicine which is to - First, do no harm.

Here is a small sampling of the interviews done by the Vaxxed filmmakers in the past year, along with some lectures, articles and testimonies. If you want to learn, this will get you started. :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeQ3H6T7pNU Dr. Moss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDhv-MzHlHo Dr. Moss testimony WV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-N6X-VEXEY Dr. Moss/Offit/pharmacy student
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jQ-LD7jEf0 Dr. MacKenzie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce2G38e09zk Dr. Phan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hge0rd8c4dk Dr. Ramon Ramos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgmjie_GcUE Dr. Franz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPHZFQFpZrY The McDowell Triplets in Michigan (pneumococcal)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi9PNKW7w3Q District Attorney Nico LaHood and wife Davida
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFQQOv-Oi6U Dr. Suzanne Humphries Lecture on vaccines and health
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWP6e2CYPo8 Trojan Horses and Clusterbombs: Dr Suzanne Humphries on aluminum in Finland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvM04WbVIAg Dr. Tetyana Obukhanych Ph.D. Natural Immunity and Vaccination
https://jameslyonsweiler.com/2015/07/15/top-10-things-you-must-know-about-the-autismvaccination-question/
https://jameslyonsweiler.com/human-studies-that-indicate-autismvaccine-link/
http://www.oatext.com/Pilot-comparative-study-on-the-health-of-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-6-to-12-year-old-U-S-children.php
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2300376
http://www.ebiomedicine.com/article/S2352-3964(17)30046-4/abstract

Linda1

Curt Watkins,
You're an MD? Allergist-immunologist?
How ironic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n12pWMfHhs
Video Q&A: Professor Yehuda Shoenfeld talks about ASIA ('autoimmune syndrome induced by adjuvants')

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf8sw3n7xrE
Vaccine Safety Conference Session 13 - Dr. Yehuda Shoenfeld, MD, FRCP

Hera

Hi Curt Watkins,
I was there too..Born in the late 60's and had measles, mumps, rubella, and whooping cough as a kid. With the measles, I remember being very itchy and being told not to scratch, maybe sick for two weeks? No one was worried about my health at the time, or that of the other kids also with measles, and yes, titres drawn as an adult show I have indeed had measles, mumps and rubella. Have you actually had the illness yourself, or are you going on what people with an agenda have been telling you?
(Whooping cough was the worst of the lot, and lasted a lot longer. Kind of amusing though, when a friend of mine's young adult fully vaccinated daughter had a long bout of "walking pneumonia" I was the one who asked if their doctor had checked for whooping cough. Yep, many tests later, turned out that is what she had...)

Re the children in Romania. Firstly, any death of a child is a tragedy that should be prevented. Secondly, malnutrition kills.
Good food and nutrition would likely help those children to survive a multitude of illnesses and conditions.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/
From this article by the world health organization

Severe measles is more likely among poorly nourished young children, especially those with insufficient vitamin A, or whose immune systems have been weakened by HIV/AIDS or other diseases.

So, if you are concerned about the health of children in Romania, as we all should be, perhaps making sure they get fed is a good first step.
But vaccines would help also in malnourished children, right?Or is that true? From a peer reviewed article.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/014067369191771L

Child mortality after high-titre measles vaccines: prospective study in Senegal

From the article's abstract

"Child mortality after immunisation was significantly higher in the two groups which received high-titre vaccines than in the group given the standard vaccine. The relative risk of death was 1·80 (95% confidence interval [CI] 1·18-2·74; p=0·007) in the EZ-HT group and 1·51 (0·97-2·34; p=0·07) in the SW-HT group compared with the standard group. The three vaccine groups were comparable as regards various social, family, and health characteristics, and there was no difference in mortality between children who received the standard vaccine and those who were eligible for the trial but did not take part for various reasons. The higher risk of death in the two high-titre vaccine groups remained significant in multivariate analyses. These findings suggest a need to reconsider the use of high-titre measles vaccines early in life in less developed countries."

Interesting risk/benefit ratio being described here, isn't it? High titre measles vaccine; most likely to kill. No vaccine or lower titre vaccine; NO difference in mortality rates.

When there are risks and benefits to medication,imo the only solution is free informed choice.

By the way, Holly L. was killed by the MMR, while "Hannah" ( who you referenced) developed encephalitis, and brain damage resulting in " symptoms of autism" from her vaccines. They are two different people.My guess is that while you had heard on the news about children dying of measles in Romania, you had not heard about children dying from the MMR right here, on the news. Vaccine deaths just do not make the news much, do they?

If you are fully aware of vaccine injury, and deaths, then it seems that you would be a little more understanding when coming to a site full of parents of vaccine injured children to tell them they are "selfish products of privilege"?
Perhaps the "selfish products of privilege" are those who have not ( at least yet) suffered vaccine injury in their families, but are insisting on taking away other peoples' medical rights?

Grace Green

Curt Watkins, I'm very sorry for your phobia of risk-taking. I have survived measles, mumps. rubella, chickenpox and even scarlet fever! I must have been at much greater risk walking out of my front door, as a slate could have fallen on my head, and as for getting into a vehicle, the risk is huge. Come to think of it, most accidents happen in the home, so it's not even safe to stay there! I have on the other hand lived with "mild" vaccine injury for 64 years, and it's total misery, prevented me from working, or socializing. So I've seen both sides of this debate, including my sons having measles, chickenpox (twice) and whooping cough. People who haven't had these experiences are being lead astray by fear-mongering into needlessly poisoning their children. The writers here are simply trying to warn others, from our own experiences.

Pam

I agree with your comment Doug. Yes, the discussion should be on just how dangerous the MMR vaccine is.
Posting links to stories about deaths from measles in other countries is a common distraction to get the subject away from the dangerous MMR vaccine.

I could also post links 10 miles long with all of the stories of maimings & deaths worldwide from the MMR.

You do realize Mr Watkins that there is a HUGE difference between the SINGLE measles vaccine that was rolled out in the 1960's and the MMR (Measles,Mumps,Rubella) vaccine that very young children are required to receive 2 doses of now.
The CHOICE of the single vaccines were removed in order to save "the program"$$$, NOT children. And a most honorable, caring, brilliant physician's career & reputation was destroyed in order to coverup the damage the Gov't would be liable for.$$$

Mr Watkins, I would suggest listening to Dr Brian Hooker, Dr Suzanne Humphries & RFK, Jr's talks this past weekend at AutismOne. Something tells me though you may not be interested in the real Facts.
The FACT is the MMR vaccine has been maiming, brain damaging & even killing children for decades.. I don't think having 1 in 45 children now doomed to a lifetime of being brain damaged & disabled, is an acceptable trade off for the so called "eradication" of measles. (which will never happen.).

May I direct you back to the top of the article...

"You can never really say MMR does not cause autism"
No you cannot.

michael

@ Curt

From the 1950 Merck manual on Diseases:

Prognosis

Measles usually is a benign infection with a low mortality
rate and one attack apparently confers lifelong immunity.
However, the disease ma 3 ^ be followed, particularly in infants,
by bronchopneumonia and other bacterial infections which may
be fatal. Postmeaslcs encephalitis, which also may be fatal,
occurs only about once in 1,200 to 1,500 cas

Benign doesn't imply innocuous. Most parents I know who have elected by informed consent to decline the MMR vaccine, have an alternative medical philosophy in place on how they would support a child's immune system, as they succumb to measles and other infections.

Curt, I'm guessing that you have read enough of the Age of Autism articles to understand where commenters and readers of Age of Autism are coming from. We see a host of problems where vaccination policies trump science. For many of us we see vaccination philosophy having more in common with a religion than science. So I'm curious what 3 things you might institute on the federal policy level which might enlighten this controversy in a way which serves everyone who want healthy children to grow up and become healthy adults. I for one would like to see vaccine safety totally removed from the CDC and assigned to a totally and absolutely independent body. Let the CDC focus on promotion. Would you not agree with that as reasonable step in the right direction?

Thanks, in advance for your response.

cia parker

Curt,
Why would a measles patient need IV fluids? Measles is not like flu and doesn't characteristically cause vomiting. Sometimes it can cause diarrhea, but it isn't usually severe enough to cause dehydration. Just drink lots of fluids. The bottom line is that measles is a viral illness, and you just have to let it run its course. There is no treatment for viral illnesses, other than very dangerous anti-viral drugs which are ineffective if taken once the illness has gotten very far. Measles is self-limiting, with well-defined stages. Why bother with trying to abort it? Why not relax in bed, sip tea or juice, and ride it out. Then you get all the many benefits of natural measles. Yes, it causes a high fever for two and a half to three days. It's THAT self-limiting. You usually feel ill when you have a high fever, but you should just rest in bed with covers to pull up when you feel chilled. And it won't last for that long. And the fever is good to go through for many reasons, and something your immune system needs to go through for its own education and maturation.

RCP

*sigh* I guess taking an hour to watch a video is too much to ask.

How about reading an article?

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2014/06/24/measles-and-measles-vaccines-fourteen-things-to-consider-by-roman-bystrianyk-co-author-dissolving-illusions-disease-vaccines-and-the-forgotten-history/

The problem with CDC statistics is that they twist them to promote vaccination. They don't quote the disease/morbidity rate from 1962 (the year before the measles vaccine was introduced), but rather quote earlier years when the disease was widespread & quite severe due to poor nutrition, sanitation, etc. They also in some places quote worldwide figures for disease instead of U.S. figures because the U.S. figures aren't scary enough.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that there is documented shedding from live virus vaccination that can infect others (and the vaccine recipient), that vaccination is producing escape mutants, and original antigenic sin is causing vaccinated people to not be able to mount an effective immune response when re-exposed.

To say that we don't care about Romanian children because we're selfish is ridiculous. As you stated, vaccination is all about risk-benefit analysis, and of course that analysis is going to change depending on the country you are in.

Many of the people on this site are parents of special needs children with very little time to spend posting things on the internet, yet we are taking the time to educate people on the actual risks of vaccination that we have spent years reading & researching to protect OTHER people's children. Is that selfish?

kws

Really Dr. Watkins ?

IGMFU, selfish product of privilege ? That's not consistent with a courteous exchange.
I'm a 24x7 caretaker for my child, who is one of 97,162 in California alone.

Surely you must recuse yourself since you have a conflict of interest in the form of making money from children who have impaired immune systems. have a nice evening,

david m burd

@ Curt,

You have a total blind spot to the MASSIVE amount of vaccine-caused permanent, chronic disabling conditions CAUSED by injecting all the "excipients" (along with acknowledged contaminants, that are impossible to test for), and then I hate to tell you there are the current U.S. toll of 3,500 SIDS deaths per year (+) another couple THOUSAND dead infants per year corruptly designated as "parents accidentally suffocating their babies by co-sleeping!

What Hog wash! ALL these infant deaths just "coincidental" with the 20+ doses of vaccines injected up, and at 6 months, with another insane flu vaccine injected 4 weeks later (laden with another 12.5 micrograms of ethylmercury!).

Your mind is closed, so you'll never even consider the massive CARNAGE brought by INJECTING infants with all vaccines' toxic ingredients/excipients/contaminants. COMPLETELY against all what Nature designed.

HAVE YOU ever read the hundreds of studies that document this vaccine-caused carnage?? Of course not, you just believe what baloney the CDC et al. spouts.

You're focused on deaths associated with childhood disease mortality, almost all associated with malnourishment and inappropriate toxic medicines. Try reading the dozens of books, thousands of published reports that show how wrong you are.

Curt Watkins

CIA

"There's nothing they can do at the hospital to treat measles"

You have heard of IV fluids? I'm sorry, but your comment is absolutely full of unsubstantiated claims, false claims and ridiculous statements.

Rather than get distracted, I'm going to stick to my original point. Measles is dangerous. You start out with the undisputed fact that 400-500 Americans died of measles each year in the 1960. That is a case fatality rate of just above 1 in 10,000. If Measles was rare, as it is today, then measles deaths would be very rare, as they are today in this country....thanks to the vaccine. Take away the vaccine and we get 10 children dying in every state every year. THAT IS NOT OK! Dont try and dismiss 400-500 dead children every year (to say nothing of the encephalitis, pneumonia and just plain misery) as no big deal.

If I paid for you to visit a children's hospital in the Philippines so you could see this disease for yourself, would you go?

Curt


cia parker

Curt,
Measles in 1960 killed between 400 and 500 patients a year, out of a total of three to four MILLION cases. That is a very low death rate. I had it when I was six, as everyone I ever knew had as well, with no problems, no deaths or disability in anyone I had ever known or heard of. I understand they happened in some people, but not many by that time. Measles gives permanent immunity, a stronger, better-trained immune system, the ability to protect babies from getting measles in their most vulnerable year, and protection from cancer, heart disease, and many skin and bone diseases. Giving vitamin A and NOT giving fever reducers would ensure the uncomplicated recovery of all those previously healthy and well-nourished. On the other hand, the MMR (and hep-B, DTaP, and flu vaccines, others as well) very often cause autism, seizure disorders, and autoimmune diseases of every kind. Autism now in one in forty, autoimmune disease in about half of our children now. So every parent needs to research the issue and make a choice. When I was a child and everyone got measles, everyone I knew or heard of was nursed at home, and I never heard of anyone being hospitalized for it. I think these days even doctors panic when measles is diagnosed, and put the patient in the hospital out of fear of liability if anything possibly actionable occurs. There's nothing they can do at the hospital to treat measles. That being said, symptoms of pneumonia should certainly be seen by a doctor and treated with antibiotics when appropriate.

We'd be much healthier as a society if we just let measles come back, but we need to make sure that everyone is aware of how they should treat it and the importance of a long recuperation at home before going back to school or work.

Curt Watkins

Hi Hara (and Susan and Doug),

Thanks for responding. I read about Hanna's story and, yes, that is a great tragedy. I do not deny that vaccines can cause side effects and although the vast majority are quite minor, very rare serious, even fatal, events do occur after vaccination. This I acknowledge so please do not accuse me of ignoring the downside of vaccines.

But vaccinations, or any medical treatment for that matter, is not all about the risk. Vaccines also provide benefit. They protect you from deadly diseases. The decision to vaccinate must be made in the context of an assessment of the risk as compared to the benefit, or what is referred to as the risk/benefit ratio.

In order to make an informed decision regarding vaccines, the benefit of the vaccine needs to be weighed against the risk and I do not see any acknowledgement on Age of Autism regarding the benefit provided by the MMR. Quite the contrary, many here engage in mental contortions or frank denial to avoid what are easily verifiable facts:

1) Measles is a deadly disease. While poverty and malnutrition make it worse, it can still kill in developed counties with estimated death rates in the range of 1 in 3000 cases (KWS cites a death rate of 1.1 in 10,000. There were 3.9 million births in the US in 2013. A measles death rate of 1.1 per 10,000 would result in over 400 deaths PER YEAR). And unless you have a solution for poverty, claiming that the deaths in Romania somehow don't count just make you sound like an indifferent, IGMFU, selfish product of privilege . Should we not care about children in Romania? In Africa? Thousands die globally every year because of this disease. Susan's son and Doug Troutman survived measles. Lucky for them. Your tiny sliver of experience is not evidence (I've never seen a plane crash, therefor planes don't crash?). The fact is that if measles vaccine was stopped, the US would once again have hundreds of measles deaths every year. Just like it did before the vaccine was introduced.

From the CDC web site: "Before the measles vaccination program started in 1963, an estimated 3 to 4 million people got measles each year in the United States. Of these, approximately 500,000 cases were reported each year to CDC; of these, 400 to 500 died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 developed encephalitis (brain swelling) from measles."

2) The MMR, given in two doses during childhood, is highly effective in preventing measles. Protective antibodies are generated in >95% of recipients. The vaccine is responsible for the elimination of endemic measles from the US. If everyone on the globe got two doses of measles vaccine, then Measles would be eliminated from the planet.

Now I'm not going to try and argue with you regarding the actual risks from the vaccine. I would be wasting my breath. I'm just trying to open a few eyes as to the fact that measles can in fact kill you. Even in a developed country like Germany. You have to knowledge the denominator in the Risk/Benefit ratio. The only reason the danger of measles is not accepted common knowledge is because the vaccine has been so successful. Take the vaccine away, and we will have to learn again the lessons that every 1960s pediatrician knew first hand.

This is from a doctor who was there:

http://www.immunize.org/reports/report029.asp

So the next time you hear about how the MMR has some side effect, please ask yourself if the alleged side effect is worse than 400 dead American children every year?

Curt

Hera

Hi Curt Watkins,
I would be very happy to have a polite discussion with you; those are the kind I prefer, and think that it is good to hear all viewpoints, And coming here, you have been politer than most who disagree; no offensive monikers, no insults..
However, what often seems to happen is someone comes here to ""educate" us, is we present them with more information, and they they go away and stop posting.
I sometimes wonder if they just haven't had access to these facts before?
Please post back when you can
All the best,
Hera

RCP

Curt,

Please watch this excellent talk on Herd Immunity by Dr. Suzanne Humphries:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KhofzZ-ke8

She also has videos on infant immunity, vaccines & health, and of course her book, Dissolving Illusions, which chronicles the disastrous history of vaccination.

Many doctors and scientists are waking up to the fact that vaccines are neither safe nor effective, and are not just destroying the health of certain susceptible children, but are depriving everyone of the health benefits of contracting the disease in childhood like decreased risk of heart attack and cancer later in life.

susan welch

Curt Watkins, I wonder how hold you are. If you believe what you have written, I can only assume you are under 35 and have been completely fooled by the media propaganda,

It goes without saying that any death, particularly of a child or mother of children, is tragic. However, you really do have the wrong idea about measles. As a 72 year old grandmother I can assure you that measles has never been anything to fear in my lifetime. It did the usual rounds when I was young and one of my sons had it in the early 1970s. During these decades no-one was in the slightest bit worried about it - and no-one I knew died. However, as stated already, there is more reason to be worried about it now because the vaccine has taken away natural immunity which mothers used to pass on to their children.

Therefore, instead of blaming families who do not vaccinate (because of vaccine injury), blame the Pharmaceutical industry for creating a potential monster where there was none before. I would suggest you do a little more research on the history of childhood diseases, vaccines and the exponential increase of autism spectrum disorder before making any more fairly naive statements.

Grace Green

David Burd, thank you for that reference to Dr. Buchwald's testimony in Canada. It's an excellent piece of evidence. I'm particularly shocked to learn that Down's Syndrome is also caused by genetic damage from vaccines. These people (with DS) are now being aborted before birth. I know some such people who live near me, and they are charming. This is also what will happen to "autistic" people if we don't bring an end to this evil.

david m burd

All - a minor correction to my previous: about Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis, his heroic story and his persecution by the medical-powers-the-day took place in the mid-1800's, the 19th Century.

david m burd

@ Han Litton & All,

The great German Dr. Gerhard Buchwald (1920-2009) experienced firsthand the immediate/permanent toxic damage to his young son he had personally vaccinated (diphtheria vaccine if I recall correctly) some 65 years ago.

Dr. Buchwald proceeded to investigate Germany's medical institutions' reports of suppressed records of extensive damage to children directly due their vaccinations. Thereafter, for the rest of his life, Buchwald wrote extensively and testified in court about the extreme dangers of vaccines (his testimony in a Canadian Court is available on the internet - everybody should read it).

It's terribly ironic Germany is presently even THINKING about vaccine mandates, when a brave hero like Germany's own Dr. Gerhard Buchwald preceded today's medical heroes like Dr. Andrew Wakefield, also being ignored and slandered by the despicable sold-out mainstream media and our criminal Health Leaders.

I want to repeat: Everybody should look up Germany's Dr. Gerhard Buchwald - in the footsteps of the 20th Century's Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis, and today's Dr. Andrew Wakefield.


rtp

Curt, if death within a few weeks following measles infection is proof positive that the measles killed them doesn't it follow that if a vaccine is given and a child dies soon after then the child should be assumed to have died from the vaccine?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander right?

And it's much worse than that because while we know exactly when a vaccine is administered we have no idea when the measles virus first enters our bodies - assuming it is exogenous.

So the evidence for millions of vaccine deaths is infinitely better than for any measles deaths.

cia parker

Hans,

I think these vaccine mandates are at the behest of the EU, which is doubtless planning the same for all of its members. Another of many reasons to Frexit, Grexit, Nexit, ...

cia parker

Curt,

Romania is a very poor country, with a high rate of malnourishment. That's why so many children died of measles a couple of months ago, for the same reason that measles kills 10% of patients in Africa. We're in the US, where the measles fatality rate by the ''50s was very low, and measles was a very beneficial disease to go through naturally.

Linda1

It's long past time for the autism community to demand the firing of Paul Offit, Art Caplan and Dorit Reiss from their positions. They are known and proven unethical liars.

kws

Thanks for posting Curt and of course we can have a courteous debate.
In California schools in 2017 there were 97,162 children with autism. Another 159,755 had speech impairments. Total enrollment is 6,226,737 yielding a dismemberment rate of .041.
The rate of measles is 1.125 deaths per 10,000 (Langmuir 1962).
Dividing the autism rate by the measles rate suggests the shot may be up to 367 times more likely to cause permanent dismemberment.

True, not all autism is related to the mmr. True, death and asthma are not reflected in the CDE data. True, death is not the only serious adverse event observed with the measles. However, the sheer numbers are staggering and its clear why parents are alarmed. Have a wonderful evening,

Linda1

Curt Watkins,

"...do you really think letting children catch measles during childhood is a good idea? Hospitalization rates during recent outbreaks have exceeded 20%."

In the immediate pre-vaccine era, measles in developed countries was a mild disease. Hospitalizations were rare. Hospitalizations now are caused either by unnecessary panic or by the fact that vaccination destroyed herd immunity that existed in the pre-vaccine era and moved the age of infection from age 5-9 when it is most mild, to adulthood when it may not be, and to infancy, because unlike mothers who have had the natural disease, vaccinated mothers do not protect their infants. So there is a danger and that danger has been caused by man's tampering with a virus that they should have instead respected. So if we have 37 year old women dying of measles, blame the idiots whose bright idea it was to prevent her from having the measles as a child.

Here is one of many scientific articles on why it may be a mistake to prevent certain childhood diseases like measles:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26122188
"Atherosclerosis. 2015 Aug;241(2):682-6. doi: 10.1016/j.atherosclerosis.2015.06.026. Epub 2015 Jun 18.
Association of measles and mumps with cardiovascular disease: The Japan Collaborative Cohort (JACC) study...

CONCLUSIONS:
Measles and mumps, especially in case of both infections, were associated with lower risks of mortality from atherosclerotic CVD."

nhokkanen

Curt Watkins illustrates one point I’ve frequently made, as in my May 16 AofA article:
“The death of a child from vaccine injury and from autism’s risks – drownings, accidents, immune collapse – is equally tragic as the death of a child from disease.”

Society seems locked in a never-ending duel over what’s more damaging ethically and psychologically: Having a child suffer or die from disease, or watching one’s child suffer or die from government-mandated vaccine. To those given the latter, the parents of vaccine-injured children, I’ve heard many wish they’d chosen the aloof risks of nature over the calculated lies and abuse public health agencies defensively inflict… a daily rubbing of salt into families’ ever-raw emotional wounds.

These polarizing comparison contests are wasteful diversions from acknowledgment and resolution through investigation, diagnosis, treatment and prevention. Until public health officials honestly acknowledge and mitigate the effects of vaccine adverse events, they justifiably bear prime responsibility for reduced vaccine uptake.

As for adults’ deaths from measles: that health care regression should make us ask questions as to why. Is it possible that vaccines, singly or in combination, are altering our immune response to diseases in ways researchers are failing to anticipate — or are refusing to acknowledge? Again, consumers’ feedback about vaccines’ effects, good and bad, must be treated with respect and partnership rather than denials and pushback from profit-focused corporations and reputation-focused bureaucratic oligarchs.

Doug Troutman

I always thought the discussion should be about the dangerous MMR vaccine and the discussion always turns into all the deaths from measles. I had the measles and nobody was dying in the streets.

Hera

Hi Curt Watkins,

For some of us here, your writing comes across as unintentionally ironic.

Are you familiar with Holly's law?
https://hopefromholly.wordpress.com/hollyslaw/
If you want more information, here is a blog.

http://hopefromholly.com/blog/
God bless this little girl and may she rest in peace..
But a question for you, in what category do you put the death of a 5 year old child from the vaccine many people want given to everyone?

Is it a case of

"You can put your fingers in your ears and close your eyes and say La-La-La-La-La and pretend it did not happen"
or

"or you can rationalize the ( child's ) death.... by claiming that she had a pre-existing condition...."--

Just wondering how you personally feel about or deal with deaths caused by the vaccine.

I wonder how many other brave, suffering families w there are like this out there.And how many people looked at their pain and said " La La La let's pretend it didn't happen...'

Curt Watkins

Michael said

"its better to experience measles and other routine childhood diseases when we are children".

There are 17 children in Romania who would have a bit of an argument with you on that point:

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-03-measles-outbreak-romania-children.html

I appreciate the author's integrity in allowing me to post. I know my viewpoint is in the minority here, but I trust we can have a courteous debate regarding the facts.

Curt Watkins

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