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Katie Couric on HPV Vax Damage Dorit Reiss' Further Threadbare Arguments

Katiebig

By John Stone

This morning on ABC television, 10am Eastern time, Katie Couric is looking into the subject of

Reiss
Dorit Reiss

injury from HPV vaccine  . Over the last eight days the KatieCouric.com blog has accumulated in excess of 5,000 comments   , many from very ill young women or members of their families. There has also a flood of sarcastic and dismissive comments from vaccination groupies, the most ubiquitous of which (although better behaved than most) has been San Francisco law professor, Dorit Reiss ("Dorit Reis and the Benefits of Agency Capture" and   Karen Ernst's Voices4Vaccines a CDC Front Group   and "Who Is Dorit Reiss?"). It has been difficult to follow the blog partly because of the sheer number of comments but also because exchanges get quickly relegated and shuffled amongst the heap, not to mention the fact that  any member of the public can delete anyone else’s comments by clicking on a box hiding in the top right corner (a facility which I have not used  myself). It is sometimes hard to know whether a conversation has actually be deleted or disappeared so far down the page that it could not be found (and beyond a certain depth my computer will not even open them).

I have copied down a few of these conversations in the past couple of days before they got lost. It was altogether evident that if anyone in the vaccine support mob was going to provide any interesting argument it would have to be Dorit.

1st Conversation (December 2 2013):

Thor Viðar Jónsson:

 The amount of horrible information being posted here is staggering. I weep for scientists today having to fight all this misinformation, dishonesty and outright lies being spread against one of the medical marvels of our age.

John Stone:

 If the "scientists" were real scientists they would be listening not sneering, and wondering whether they had really got it right. The only explanation of their current behaviour is that they know already that they've got it wrong and they are rushing for cover.

 Dorit Reiss (Works at UC Hastings College of the Law):

 The large scale studies and the constant monitoring of the vaccine safety suggest that scientists are taking this vaccine's safety extremely seriously, and examining it closely for any safety concerns. The fact that their findings are not what the parents what to hear does not make them any less true. No cover. Just facts. No serious problems have been clearly linked to this vaccine, with millions of doses administered. Teen age girls suffer medical problems regardless of the vaccine. The rates of the very different array of problem raised by the families are not higher in the vaccinated girls than in the general population or unvaccinated girls. The evidence is that the vaccine is extremely safe.

Foregoing this protection because of distressed parents' belief in its harms would be extremely problematic.

 Thor Viðar Jónsson:

 I worry when someone puts "scientists" in a quote, and perfect post Dorit thank you!

John Stone:

 Dorit Reiss

Well, that's what you say, but it is people being judge and jury in their own case. Confronted by a deluge of real human beings saying what they think of the experience a little humility would be in order. I certainly, don't see it here.

By the way can you shed any light on the existence or otherwise of Prof Reuben Gaines of Johns Hopkins University, who also claims to be employed in the Department of Health in Washington DC? In October he admitted trolling me in your Times of Israel blog, and when I mentioned this last night (UK time) I got another troll conversation (again admitted) from one Lance Penna. I don't actually think this sort of stuff really puts the vaccine lobby in a very good light.

Cynthia Denomme Maurer:

Then weep, because science has lost it's credibilty, not because of science, but because of those who claim it as their area of expertise, when in fact, much of it is monetarily fed, forged and fixed studies. I have been a scientist for 40 years. It doesn't take an expert to do the research, it only takes a parent with motivation and love for their children.

 Dorit Reiss:  

 John Stone people can err, and parents work on incomplete information that may help them believe in causation where it does not exist. As sociolegal scholars know, testimony by eyewitness is fraught with problems. People's perceptions can suffer from cognitive biases (see Kahnman, Thinking Fast and Slow), people's memories can be faulty and there can be credibility issue. People do err. Scientists err too, but the rigors of the scientific method help reduce these errors. Parents have no such controls.

 Even without the potential to err, parents lack two pieces of information: the rates of the harm in the population, and often the biological mechanisms. Without knowing how often this happen sans vaccine, you can't evaluate if the vaccine caused it. So sorry, but parental belief is not a substitute to causation evidence.

 me (signed in using yahoo):

 John Stone You mad bro?

Dorit Reiss:

Cynthia Denomme Maurer actually, training in research method is crucial to reduce bias, avoid errors, and do a good job. I have met many scientists who are conscientious, devoted, and selfless. They don't' deserve this blanket condemnation.

Jennifer Weesner Simpson (CSA at Lowe's Home Improvement):

 Dorit Reiss The problem is that the majority of time vaccine injuries are written off as coincidental before there is even an investigation, because of the claim that vaccines are safe. Of the small number of adverse events that are actually reported, I personally know of hundreds of vaccine injuries (all experienced within a week or two of the vaccine) that were never investigated or reported. Many of them reacted to an initial vaccine, and recovered, and doctors said that it was a coincidence, so the child was vaccinated again, and the same reaction occurred, but it was worse the second time, sometimes with permanent disability and/or death. We all have believed in our doctors, trusted them, and we no longer do, because like you, they deny the obvious evidence. ...and you say "I have met many scientists who are conscienti...See More

 Dorit Reiss:  

 Jennifer Weesner Simpson I'm saying the parents here have no causation evidence. Most of them did not bring any, and many of them mentioned other possible causes. Bring causation evidence, we will talk.

 Actually, I have met several people with actual vaccine injuries - arms that were swollen for weeks, or brain damage. Their harms were thoroughly investigated. All serious VAERS reports are investigated.

 That said, if the report is about SIDS and when the hospital is contacted there is evidence of SIDS, that might be the end. If a parent says vaccines cause their child autism, the investigation will probably be short, because the evidence is overwhelming that vaccines do not.

 But the fact that investigation does not conclude what the parent wants does not mean it did not happen.

 Dorit Reiss:

 John Stone and by the way, I've met Mr. Gaines the same way I met you, online. He is clearly very knowledgeable about epidemiology and I have no reason to doubt what he says.

 The "pro-vaccine lobby", as you call it, is a group of diverse individuals with various personalities, backgrounds, and approaches to discussion. I'll admit I haven't seen anything Lance or Mr. Gaines did that was particularly outrageous - so you exchanged banter; no threats, hard words from both sides, but that's it.

 Would you like to talk of some of the tactics of some anti-vaccine activists?

Twyla Ramos:

 Why would evidence of SIDS mean "that might be the end" of an investigation? SIDS just means sudden infant death - it does not explain anything, it does not explain causation. Likewise, autism is a spectrum without a defined causation. Some children with autism have been compensated for vaccine causation. Yes, a diagnosis of "autism" ends the investigation - because the link between autism and vaccines is being vigorously denied.

 You keep saying that all reports of serious adverse reactions are investigated, but many parents say otherwise.

John Stone:

Dorit Reiss

One reason why scientists might err (apart from professional self-interest) is that also they don't have the full information. What you would want is a full independent medical assessment of each case. But I also know that doctors are terrified of the vaccine issue - they mostly just don't want to go near it and I don't think this makes for safety.

 And I know what the doctors did when my son had terrifying reactions to vaccines. They just told us to give him some tylenol and go away (on the phone). They don't want to know. In a 2006 study by a CDC scientist it turned out that 6 in 100 toddlers given MMR2 developed a temperature 39.5C or more, yet there was no long term follow up of health and developmental outcomes for that sub group - the study was wound up after 1 month. And actually nearly 25% of cases the toddler was already definably unwell at the point of vaccination (but modern doctors just steam ahead regardless).

 So, mostly I am not really impressed by this Olympian detachment.

Also, the trouble with recall bias studies that I have seen is that the assumption that the written record was complete and accurate is erroneous too. Mostly doctors will not even note bad vaccine reactions in my experience. (Yes, I read Kahneman's book too).

Dorit Reiss:

 John Stone I don't know what happened with your son and can't comment on that. But - a. The fact that we have tens of thousands of VAERS reports, many by doctors, does not lend support to your claims that doctors ignore such claims. b. Fever as a side effect of MMR was known. Without reason to think it causes long term harm, why follow up? To remind you, measles is much more likely to cause high fevers, and we don't follow up on that, either. c. a mild illness is not a contraindication to vaccination, to remind you.

 I'd like some evidence that doctors don't note vaccine reactions, please. Your experience, with all due respect, is probably limited to a small number of cases.

 Dorit Reiss:

By the way, I am going to be going out with my toddler soon. Since you seem to interpret my tendency to at some point move on from a discussion - depending on what else is on my desk - as a concession for some reason, here is a suggestion: don't. At some point, even I do move on. It usually means I feel we've exhausted the issues and there is nothing more to add, or that I have other things to do.

 Thor Viðar Jónsson:

 LOL wow, Jan posted this on her wall. "The bottom line to ALL vaccines... Bill Gates Admits Vaccines Are Used for Human Depopulation"

Wendy Stec:

 Cynthia Denomme Maurer ...Thank you!

 John Stone:

 Dorit Reiss

We need to follow up because we have very different health problems from a generation ago. Yes, you get high fevers with measles but measles isn't a commercial product (apart from anything else). I have seen a lot of retrospective MMR studies which do not relate a similar incidence of high fever to the paper mentioned so I have reason to suspect an absence of such recording, rather than absence of high fevers. Also, if doctors were either as blasé about such events as you are (or perhaps as worried as I am) they would likely pass them over.

 2nd Conversation (December 3 2013)

Donna Malone (Murfreesboro, Tennessee)

Symptoms Post Gardasil:

OVER 32,179 Injured in the U.S. Alone!

 148 +Deaths

Disabled 993 Did Not Recover 6,343

Abnormal Pap 549 Cervical Dysplasia 226

Cervical Cancer 69 Life threatening 587

ER Visits 10,946 Hospitalized 3,264

Serious 4,336 Extended Hospital Stay 240

The Injured are experiencing the Following Symptoms

*BRAIN DAMAGE* *CARDIAC ARREST *BLOOD CLOTS *DEATH

* SEIZURES *ENCEPHALITIS* CANCER

*Stomach pain *Muscle Pain & Weakness *Paralysis

*Rash *Severe Fatigue *Swelling*Hand /

Leg Tremors *Fever* Strokes *Dental Changes *Hearing/Vision Loss *Nausea

* Fainting *Dizzy *Swollen Lymph Nodes *Brain Fog *Migraines

*Shortness of breath *Forgetful

* Chest Pain *Vomiting *Auto Immune Issues

* Mood Changes *Skin Eruptions *Chronic Yeast

Infections * Joint/Nerve Pain*Insomnia *Heart Problems*Bruising

* Absent Menses*Hair Loss *Gastrointestinal Problems *Confusion

*Ringing In ears *Ovarian Cysts *Pain Base of Skull

*Night Sweats

REPORT ADVERSE EVENTS TO VAERS 1-800-822-7967

Find More Information Truthaboutgardasil.org

MODERATOR@TRUTHABOUTGARDASIL.ORG

*NOTE: Request a Merck Manual 1-800-293-3881 for A List of Side Effects!

This Flyer contains the information received by the FDA from Merck, Statistics from the CDC and the latest VAERS reports. Statistics

Show 1- 10% of Injuries & Deaths are reported

CLINICAL STUDIES SHOWED OVER 73% HAD “NEW” MEDICAL

Dorit Reiss:

Your numbers:

You are treating VAERS reports as if they show causation. They do not. They are not evidence that any of these things were caused by the vaccines. Anyone can report anything to VAERs; before it can be treated as evidence of cause, it needs to be investigated. Most report are found not causally connected: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23063829

 Here is an explanation about VAERS: http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2013/11/vaers-few-things-we-need-to-discuss.html

About the 73%: It does not mean 73% of women had new conditions caused by the vaccine, just that during the years of clinical trials, most of these young women had some medical problem - hardly surprising. The problems mentioned included diarrhea and indigestion. Shocking, I know, that during several years a young girl would have diarrhea, but still.

 Even more important - the girls in the placebo group had 76% new conditions. Less than those that got the vaccine. In short, this is not evidence the vaccine is dangerous.

In contrast, large scale studies show its safety: A Kaiser study with almost 190000 young women comparing events to the general population: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23027469 ; and a Swedish study with hundreds of thousands young women comparing unvaccinated and vaccinated : http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f5906 . Neither found evidence of serious risks. The harms were no larger for the vaccinated than elsewhere.

Donna Malone:

Dorit Reiss - good morning Dorit - good to see you here again. Once again - MORE STUDIES NEED TO BE DONE ON THIS VACCINE!!! I WILL CONTINUE THIS RESPONSE UNTIL THERE ARE MORE STUDIES DONE BY UNBIASED PARTIES....

 Thank you for your time and attention!

John Stone:

Dorit Reiss

You can criticise VAERS because the cases have not been investigated but then we have to ask why not? And of course the other problem with passive reporting is that is likely to only pick up 1 to 2% of cases.

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Books/Adverse_Reactions/vaers/credible_estimates.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1293280/

So, actually it is likely to be massively understating the problem.

Dorit Reiss:

Donna Malone studies are continuing. I just posted two above. Here is another one:

"A total of 113 specialised centres recruited (from December 2007 to April 2011) females aged 14-26 years with incident cases of six types of ADs: idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP), central demyelination/multiple sclerosis (MS), Guillain-Barré syndrome, connective tissue disorders (systemic lupus erythematosus, rheumatoid arthritis/juvenile arthritis), type 1 diabetes mellitus and autoimmune thyroiditis.

No evidence of an increase in the risk of the studied ADs was observable following vaccination with Gardasil within the time periods studied. There was insufficient statistical power to allow conclusions to be drawn regarding individual ADs."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24206418

None of these large scale studies found safety concern. Studies will continue, but for the moment, we need to offer children protection with a vaccine that has such impressive evidence of safety, and no credible scientific or medical evidence of serious harms.

Dorit Reiss:

John Stone I am criticizing VAERS reports because they do not show causation. All reports of serious events are actually investigated. No deaths have been causally connected to this vaccine yet.

John Stone:

Dorit Reiss

"All reports of serious events are actually investigated."

What a ridiculous statement. I can't think of a single example of this happening in the UK apart from Andrew Wakefield (and look what they did to him).

John Stone:

Dorit Reiss

Look Dorit, I think you have said something extremely foolish. The standard response of the US government to a possible vaccine injury is that it did not happen unless the victim can prove it in the NVICP. No one monitors or investigates adverse vaccine reactions and their sequelae routinely. That's a fiction. Maybe someone looks at reported cases only to dismiss them at a distance (perhaps as statistically insignificant) but investigated?

Dorit Reiss  

John Stone VAERS is not in the U.K.

From VAERs' site: " Please note that VAERS staff follow-up on all serious and other selected adverse event reports to obtain additional medical, laboratory, and/or autopsy records to help understand the concern raised. However, in general coding terms in VAERS do not change based on the information received during the follow-up process. VAERS data should be used with caution as numbers and conditions do not reflect data collected during follow-up. Note that the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not infer causality." http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

Your assumption that there is no follow up is: a. based on the wrong country. b. assumes misfeasance without evidence.

Twyla Ramos:

Dorit Reiss the follow up is inadequate. Many U.S. parents have reported that there was no follow up on their children's serious adverse reactions, even when they asked for follow up.

And you seem to have the attitude that absolute proof must be provided BEFORE any reports are taken seriously. Absence of additional evidence does not prove that these adverse reactions didn't occur.

Cynthia Parker:

Dorit Reiss

You said yesterday that the US continued to monitor vaccine safety after vaccine release by the VAERS system. And yet now you say that that system is completely not to be trusted. So we have no reliable program at all for monitoring vaccine safety? I know you'd like to say that the vaccines are nearly 100% safe when released, and that no matter how many side effects are reported, nearly all of the the reports are bogus, but the many thousands of people it happens to would not agree, including me and my family.

Dorit Reiss:

Twyla Ramos follow up does not have to be with the family. It can just as easily be with the medical team and records.

 Cynthia, I did not say the system is not to be trusted. I pointed out that the raw reports do not show causation. They do not.

John Stone:

Dorit Reiss

Reviewing data does not amount to investigating a case. As the rubric you quote makes clear it does not result in any action and doesn't change the status of the case.

3rd Conversation (December 3 2013)

Da Wei Leigh (Dir. Sales and Marketing at Global Fab Semiconductor LLC):

Bhopal in a syringe?

Bhopal occurred in 1984. Although the cloud of poison from the Union Carbide plant blanked the city and immediately began its deadly mission, as late as July of this year, Union Carbide is claiming that the victims rights group fail to prove that there is a causal link between the escape of gas, the instantaneous and subsequent deaths, illness and injury. No link. No proof. People alive the day before died overnight and in droves in the ensuing days, months and years. Yes, almost 30 years later. No link is claimed. http://www.earthrights.org/media/appeals-court-denies-justice-victims-union-carbide-s-pollution-bhopal

I see a distinct parallel in the denial.

It is understandable that Merck does not want a Vioxx II so are doing everything to prevent it.

Will they succeed an continue to deny 30 years from now like Bhophal.

Dorit Reiss:

Another distraction? Again, where is your evidence of harms of HPV? To me, this attempt to reach for other cases, no matter how different, is an admission that you have none.

Da Wei Leigh:

Union Carbide needs your talent Dorit. They've succeeded almost 30 years to evade responsibility by denying any cause. Sorry, it is a legal parallel that mirrors Merck's Vioxx behavior and their current Gardasil behavior. Don't you agree? I wonder if Merck and Union Carbide share law firms? It is really the same case, only the players are different. Vioxx was Merck's previous Union Carbide and Gardasil is the current one. One is end phase and the other is just beginning. Compelling!!!

Addryanne Adamsyn  (Banana):

Lots of people need Dorits talent. Being different from every single anti vaxer in this crowd that is unable to present a viable defence for their opinions, but doesn't realise this proves that they are wrong.

John Stone:

Addryanne Adamsyn

Da Wei Leigh's parallel is significant. It is the genre of how corporations and governments leave the victims of their mistakes and evil experiments floundering - calling on them to disprove the blatantly obvious. Another parallel would be the UK's Camelford water contamination disaster where under the direction of the UK's Department of Health successive British governments have for a quarter of a century cynically obfuscated an incident which threw into disarray the Thatcher government water privatisation plans.

http://www.bmj.com/content/330/7486/275.2/reply

http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3376/rr/647108

The answer is in the real world of industrial science no one ever admits error unless they are forced to. We also had in the UK in the 1980s - another Department of Health masterpiece - the contaminated blood for haemophiliacs scandal and another report 25 years later finding no one to blame (at least they couldn't entirely disguise what happened) for what was little better than bureaucratic mass-murder.

The point is no one ever rolls over and apologises or admits culpablility, and what what we are getting here is just what you'd expect from governments and corporations that have done harm on an industrial scale. And we will continue to get lots of flippant remark saying you can't prove it, but it is a legal strategy which is neither humane, honest or scientific.

If ordinary citizens disregard all the smarmy, superior denials who is to blame them?

Dorit Reiss

A variety of non-related examples is not evidence of harms. Just like the rollovers of Ford Pinto do not mean the Fiesta is dangerous. Especially when vaccines are subject to so many more accountability mechanisms than other drugs.

John Stone

Dorit Reiss

No, it is a question of how they are related. I am pointing out that if vaccines cause harm (as many here believe) governments and corporations would hire lawyers and scientists to defend their reputations rather than ever admit anything. Don't you agree?

John Stone is UK Editor for Age of Autism.

 

Comments

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The real question is, has Dorit received the series of 3 HPV vaccines yet? If not, why not do it on camera? Why not release that part of her medical records???? Has she received her latest dose of Tdap? At least every five years, you know. How about her adult meningitis vaccines? Pneumonia? Flu shot this year? Last? How about a shingles shot? Might need that too? If we should blindly accept "recommended doses" and then shut up about causation, then I think she should be held to the same standard before suggesting that girls "would have gotten sick anyway," in so many words.

Linda,
Most of the parents posting on Katie's blog about their children's death or disability from Gardasil make it clear that they were healthy, vibrant, vital kids before the vaccine, without any preexisting conditions. The shills have even gone so far as to make fun of this, saying they must be making it up to have such a large number of athletic, healthy, gifted kids succumb to vaccine damage.

After a couple of decades of reports in the medical literature about young women suffering strokes after taking over-the-counter medications containing PPA (phenylpropanolamine), the FDA took steps to withdraw its GRAS recommendation. The FDA did this after a time-buying industry-sponsored study of PPA conducted by handpicked researchers showed an increased incidence of stroke. You'd think that drug companies would then accept these results. After all, PPA didn't have anything to recommend it except that it made money. It's just a decongestant and there are safer substitutes.

But even though the handwriting was on the wall for everybody to see, drug companies kept flogging PPA. Novartis composed a letter to doctors suggesting that they tell parents that the study didn't include children, that children rarely have strokes anyway and that PPA keeps kids in school. If parents still had concerns, doctors might consider divulging that Novartis also produced PPA-free cold remedies. (There's a link to this amazing letter in here: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ppa28mar28-1,1,4339482,print.htmlstory?coll=la-home-left1 )

In God's name, why trust entities that conduct themselves this way?

Now someone named Ren is trying to demonize pap smears as cost-inefficient. A pap smear potentially saved my life from severe dysplasia, even catching it a little late due to a delay in report. I went on to have subsequent children after treatment. They are really reaching for drama when they diss pap smears as being traumatic. One commenter on the Katie site noted that she had had the vaccine at a age 17 and then got an HPV related precancer by 21 so it's really still too early to see how this all plays out. What really would be a cost inefficient scenario is if a vaccine for HPV was not efficacious to a very high standard for cervical, penile, anal or head/neck cancers- which in fairness remains to be seen, AND you still need to use screening tools anyways for these cancers (tests such as the pap), AND there are too many serious side effects for these vaccines that need to be addressed in court etc.

I'm unblocked now. And yes I did contact FB. Probably won't receive a response.

In fact this really bothers me. Why should it be that National Geographic, which owns Sienceblogs be ok with the way Sienceblogs encourages or even promotes what amounts to "hate" campaigns ( encouraging many to prevent Jenny McCarthy being hired at ABC) and activities like 'poll crashing' , yet Twyla is banned on Facebook for stating an opinion. We live in scary times. That's bullcrap!

Ace and Twyle, I would encourage you to contact Facebook regarding this censorship. Twyla, I have never known you to say anything even approaching "abuse" level. Facebook should be concerned about their neutrality in the current times of threats to Internet freedom.
Internet services like Wikipedia and WOT are well- known to be biased. In fact lately, in The Independent, Oct/13, an article appeared saying that Wikipedia made an unprecedented admission that it's site is being manipulated by paid spin doctors and 'sock puppets'. At least 250 people were banned after found to be engaging in non- neutral editing.
On-line papers such as Huffington Post who actually allow freedom of opinion are becoming rare.
What is the point of Facebook for discussion purposes if opinion content is censored?? Of course it goes without saying that abusive or inappropriate behaviors, threats should be reported, but what you are describing goes to content or opinion.

Jen,
To my knowledge, the assertion that some Gardasil deaths have been caused by an underlying genetic or other cardiac defect is pure speculation. Certainly these young girls who have died so young have all been autopsied. I don't know about metabolic, but I think a structural defect would have been uncovered.

Re the studies, I don't know, but it would be interesting to see what conditions were excluded. If the investigators did exclude girls with immune system and cardiac disorders, then of course, adverse reactions wouldn't show up or be known in that population. But then it would be hard to imagine the vaccine being promoted for all girls and now boys. Well, maybe it isn't so hard to imagine. But I don't know how those studies were done. And too, all of the deaths that I've read about (which are not all of them) were in girls described as previously healthy, vibrant and even athletic before receiving the vaccine. None were described as suffering from any kind of chronic condition beforehand.

Twyla and Ace,
I have a big problem with individuals working in a private corporation deciding what can and cannot be said. As social media is now how most people communicate, this is a crisis. Imagine if during the course of a telephone conversation, a recording cuts in and says, "sorry, you can't say that" and your call is dropped. This is no different. For those who defend Facebook by saying that since it's a private company, they can set their own standards, I say that since even government promotes the use of social media as a form of communication and since telephone companies are also privately owned, across the board, the public has to be protected from inappropriate censorship and isolation from use of these now almost essential services without good reason.

Aces and Twyla, sad to see that Facebook censors but I am not surprised one bit!

Cia Parker,

Yes, we are winning the war, but as we are witnessing, they (by they I mean those that, for whatever reason, want the vaccination program to continue apparently at all costs), are pushing back hard, very hard, they are not going to give in without a fight. And unfortunately they have the big artillery, that of forcing vaccinations by use of their laws that take away our rights as parents to choose what we are give our children; be it vaccinations, forced medical treatments, and clean healthy food and water. But as we have witness over the past week, there are many now that have woken up and now question vaccination, tragically after a severe reaction or even death of a precious child, their stories are having an impact because they affect us in the heart because they speak the truth. Their truth serves to further illuminate the lies spewed by those who are trying to repress that truth.

“Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number-
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you
Ye are many-they are few.” Shelley

I too got blocked for 'abuse' yet I abused absolutely no one on the thread.
I am unable to use the widget but my facebook is still active.

Talk about a concerted effort of censorship by the vax fanatics! They just don't like dissenting opinions, do they?

I'd be keen to know who else got their comments blocked and/or deleted.

P.S. I noticed you captured 'Addryanne Adamsyn's' name in the thread comments.
To those who have been targeted for harassment and ridicule by this individual (she frequents these sort of forums implying that most people who claim vax damage are liars) they may be interested to know that the cowards real names are Bronwyn Alderton and Bronwyn Moon (she has used both).
If she wasn't embarrassed by all her trolling online, I think she'd put her real name(s) to her callous remarks.

Regarding Gardasil, some commenter somewhere mentioned the possibility of a sudden death by the vaccine as being caused by some type of heart condition- possibly genetic. I thought that was a fair suggestion, but then I got thinking that in clinical trials, don't they screen subjects rigorously for ANY type of auto- immune or genetic problems, including heart problems? I'm sure that they would and if fainting or syncope is so common with the Gardasil vaccine or the aluminum "placebo" then wouldn't it more or less prove the point that there is something to do with the vaccine that can trigger this???
I would appreciate some feedback on this point. Certainly a lot of people have mentioned organ problems and rashes.

In Emily Willingham's slam piece on Katie's show she trotts out the non-issue of Gardasil being a vaccine against a sexually transmitted disease for tweens. My God, did you people hear that? It is a vaccine for a sexually disease! Apparently that's the sole reason for everyone claiming there could be an unusually high number of severe adverse events. Sure Emily, if it makes you feel better to think people are that narrow minded, keep thinking it. Honestly, I think that's why so many people in fact did have their children get this shot. Silly Emily...

Wow, not only that but:

"You're Temporarily Blocked
"You're temporarily blocked from posting on Facebook for the next 12 hours. Please review our Community Standards so you can understand what's allowed on Facebook and keep your account in good standing."

Me, one of the most polite commenters around, trying to stand up for abused families. I had successfully restrained myself from posting, "I'm tempted to call you a bitch, but that would be an insult to female dogs everywhere," but I'm banned for something very reasonable and on topic, after many hours of patience with these mean people.

This is strange. FaceBook just informed me that:

"We removed this from Facebook because it violates our Community Standards:

"Kathy McGrath you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe they have ruled out Epstein Barr. You don't know anything about his daughter except for what is in the comment he posted. You can suggest Epstein Barr as a cause, but you have no basis for stating anything with certainty."

A commenter had posted a detailed story of his previously health daughter's very serious health conditions which suddenly developed after receipt of the Gardasil vaccine. This person Kathy McGrath posted a vehement comment saying that the commenter's daughter suffered from Epstein Barr, not Gardasil injury. My response is very reasonable, no cussing, no name calling.

Anyone from out here in California see this article about AB2109 written by Reiss?

http://www.uchastings.edu/news/articles/2013/10/reiss-viewpoint-lawsigning.php

A doctor Caplan in this article finds 8% of serious Gardasil side effects "boring statisics." He says the network wants "faces" for some supposed sensationalism.I think they are afraid of "faces." Does he think the Narcolepsy coverage was "boring" as well? And then he goes on to mention a bunch of strawmen like contrails and cell phones. Jeesh!

Hubby just checked; Reiss is NOT a member of the California bar and from her bio, it looks like she's only worked in academia in the U.S.

See here: http://www.uchastings.edu/academics/faculty/facultybios/reiss/docs/reissCV.pdf

I just went to the Katie Couric show site and I am blown away by all the commenters who feel they or a loved one has suffered adverse events following that particular vaccine! Many of them really are stressing they are not "anti" vaccines but they know that something happened after this vaccine. For me, I feel that some vaccines may be good but they have pushed the issue too far- very few countries mandate hep b at birth, chicken pox is not on all countries schedules and the flu shot may be not so necessary given some research that shows children are less likely to be hospitalized (I forget the particular age group but there is research on this). They have pushed and pushed so far with all this and they need not be surprised that some of the children are at a breaking point by the time they receive their umpteenth vaccine- Gardasil. As one commenter said, marginalizing the injured is not the way to go.
As someone whose close relative suffered Guillaume Barre (confirmed by hospital) after their flu shot, I am very appalled (but not surprised) by the cool dismissal of some of the commenters - the Scienceblogs crowd. These commenters are having the effect of re-victimizing the many who have shared injuries.
I hope Katie stands by her show. It was good to see mainstream actually deal with this issue.

@cia parker:

Not quite sure you mean by "do you really think the tide has turned," but I will say that I do think more and more people are finally waking up to the Truth out there, and not just about vaccine issues (soon-to-be movie/documentary "Bought" comes to mind).

Unfortunately, it takes that bullet to the head to awaken. It was literally watching our now 20 year old son suffer high-pitched screaming episodes, projectile vomiting and complete somnolence for over two days for that light-bulb to finally go off. It's been a long journey since then...

I've gone from being ostracized in Mom's playgroups because we didn't vaccinate our son, to witnessing discussions about vaccines on national television. HUGE step since 1993!

This awakening movement is picking up steam...not fast enough for my taste, but nevertheless, it's gathering momentum.

Dr Hickie plays games

That's very odd - we generally welcome his comments. They never fail to be less than illuminating.

Dr. Chris Hickie is complaining on Respectful Insolence that he isn't allowed to "play in our sandbox" and that his comments don't get through, yet he has proven that he is afraidto answer a few interesting questions about a baby girl who had possible side effects after vaccination.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2013/11/weekly-wrap-six-of-one.html Remember Dr. Hickie??

Deborah, Bayereamom, and Linda,
I hope you're right. I just posted on the revolting Time piece that Katie and Barbara were more in touch with the lives of their viewers than the mediocracy, and more willing to believe our accounts of vaccine damage. Do you really think that the tide has turned? Did you read the dozens, maybe hundreds, of horrible stories of kids killed or disabled by Gardasil on Katie's blog? A man just said that more side effects are reported to VAERS caused by it than by any other. Judy Converse said in her book ten years ago that it was the hep-B vax that had had more events reported to VAERS caused by it than by all the others put together, but maybe Gardasil, licensed in 2007, has far surpassed it. And Dorit says that it's surprising that the uptake of Gardasil is low? It scares me that the pundits at Time and Forbes ALWAYS unanimously insist that vaccines are holy and never cause anyone any harm. I just put on Time that this shows the long arm and deep pockets of the vaccine companies. How long is it going to be before there is a turning point?

Bayereamom,
I would imagine that it would be posted somewhere if she had passed the Bar. I depended on memorizing the Barbri materials published by the Gilbert Law summary people, and passed it the first time, but the president of my class failed it three times. It may be that Dorit is so busy and doing so well in her other endeavors that she hasn't taken the time to pass it. And would she have the credentials demanded by the state she took it in if she had not gone to law school there?

@John Stone:

I JUST found your article re: Reiss here at AOA; had no idea you'd written such an extensive article about her. I thought the following very interesting:

..."Then I discovered that she had responded in Harvard Law Review to Mary Holland, advocating that parents of unvaccinated children should be made liable for infection. Barely a month ago probably no one in the field of vaccine safety advocacy had ever heard of Dorit Reiss now she seems to be everywhere, and passionate proponent of the vaccine industrial machine in all its guises and rampant institutional ambition."


Well, good to know why my hinky meter went off re: Reiss. I came into this discussion re: Reiss a little late in the game; had no idea much of Reiss' background had been revealed in this great piece you've written. Am reading through it now...(great job by the way).


Reiss' bio:

"Professor Dorit Rubinstein Reiss received a double undergraduate degree in Law and Political Science (1999, Magna cum Laude) from the Faculty of Law in the Hebrew University of Jerusalem where she served as Editor in Chief of the Law Review. She received her Ph.D. from the Jurisprudence and Social Policy program in UC Berkeley, completing a three country, two sector comparative study on accountability in the liberalized telecommunications and electricity sectors in England, France and Sweden. During her studies in Berkeley she worked as a teaching assistant in ten courses, winning the Outstanding Graduate Student Instructor Award.

Following graduation from law school, Professor Reiss clerked for a year and a half in the Israeli Ministry of Justice’s Department of Public Law, working on a variety of constitutional and administrative law issues.

Professor Reiss is continuing her research into accountability of agencies by studying accountability in complex situations. Some of her projects focus on the United States, examining issues in federal administrative law and studying the California Public Utilities Commission. Others are comparative in nature, examining regulation and administrative law in other countries."


In reviewing the above, kind of hard to imagine she wouldn't have passed her bar exam. On the other hand, I've a cousin in Colorado whose children all had various double/triple degrees. Yet, he stated to me that the more 'educated/degreed' his children became, the 'dumber' they became.

I think it's fair to substitute the word 'conditioned' for 'dumber' to explain someone like Reiss.

The vaccine harm denialists are hopping mad at Katie Couric, and Merck's PR people had to work their butts off, no doubt late into the night, placing hit pieces in the media. The pro-vax posters took a real blow to the chest from Dr Harper, just yesterday they were still trying to convince themselves that she was pro HPV vaccination, posting skeptic blog articles 'proving' her anti HPV vaccine stance was a hoax. LOL. People are waking up, and the pro-vax denialists can ridicule all they like, hurl abuse to the harmed and their families, keep shouting conspiracy theorist, but they are losing the war. People are waking up.

Someone on Katie's blog just commented that Dorit had not passed the Bar exam anywhere, having graduated in Israel in 1999, I think. That might explain some of her career choices, since not having passed the Bar would limit them, I assume, to teaching, consulting in a prescribed way (I think she'd be limited in the kind of legal advice she could give), and writing.

Reiss may be working at her other job today, or maybe she's taking a day off.

I don't think anyone should underestimate Katie Couric. I'm glad that the shills have been out in full force. I'm glad that the medical industry was breathing down the show's neck to censor the story. That's perfect. Because now Katie Couric and her staff know that people are not being given the benefit of proper informed consent, they know that the vaccine is not as safe or effective as the industry claims, they know that the injured are being denied, and they know that there is a massive cover-up. And after yesterday's show, thousands of Katie's viewing audience knows too. Whatever didn't come through because of the censorship will eventually come out, because I do not believe that Katie will be satisfied knowing that people are in danger and are being misinformed. It's all good.

Hi Cia,

Just to mention that the CDC's own Vaccine Information Sheet for Gardashil says that it causes fainting:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/hpv-gardasil.html

So, who are these experts?

Als btw the VIS sheet tells people that they should any adverse reactions to VAERS, so where is the good faith when the information is promptly ignored or dismissed?

John

Today on the site a bunch of shills are saying that the program itself was highly irresponsible journalism only designed to rake in profits. I said they wanted to censor information that everyone has the right to hear and consider, and that they were projecting their own motives onto the show.

Linda,
It's too bad the comments on Katie's site are such an unorganized morasse. I commented yesterday about the girl being killed in an accident when driving home after her appointment, about how doctors were told to give the shot to girls lying down and to keep them in the office for a while afterwards to see if they were going to faint. The shills denied all of it, saying that no vaccine causes fainting or seizures, and that the girl just had an accident for some other reason, it was absolutely not caused by the vaccine. (Proof?)
I think Dorit must be battle-fatigued at this point to deny that the Pap test detects pre-cancerous or cancerous cervical lesions. What does she think it does? She's become very unpersuasive in her new strategy of just saying that no adverse reaction to vaccines can ever, ever be proven, it's ALWAYS possible that something else was the cause, therefore people must believe that they never occur, and just get the damn vax.

Linda,
I asked her if she had meant Katie, that Barbara Walters was the one who had wanted to hire Jenny, but Katie was the one on whom she was supposed to be commenting, in this mass defection of television journalists to our ranks. Her mental instability in her rant directed toward me was so demented that I would imagine she's not going to be kept on much longer.

Jen,
There are also hit pieces on Forbes and, of course, scienceblogs, and doubtless other sites as well. What is Dorit's assignment today? She's not on the Couric site so far today. Does this betoken desperation, and an intuition that the end for them is near?

Jen,
A lot of shills are tearing up vaccine-damaged families on the site, this morning a woman who posted her story since yesterday said she had started crying when she read the attacks. But there are also a lot of people calling the shills out on their abusive tactics, and I think the thread has woken up hundreds of participants to the situation, and thousands of readers, none of whom are likely to side with the shills based on their performance there.

Chris Hemmings,
I have thought about it too, and I think the answer is that she is currying favor with the most powerful, richest industry in the world, with hundreds of opportunities to exercise her legal skills. Surely it is not necessary to go any further than that. They sent her to Washington a few weeks ago to derail the hearing on Vaccine Court, an effort in which she was successful.

Ottoschnaut,
I also was very glad that Dr. Harper at least said what she did, but was disappointed that she said the risk of an adverse reaction to the vaccine was very small. A raging battle continues at the Katie Couric website, a bunch more people since yesterday have added their stories of their daughters' and sons' severe and chronic reactions to Gardasil (a report of a boy's death is new today). There are now hundreds of them described on that one thread. Could Dr. Harper not even have said something like: While the statistical risk of permanent injury seems very low, numerically there have been many thousands whose families say that they reacted very shortly after receiving the vaccine? Would it have been professional suicide to have made that modest and unassailably correct statement?
You should see the hatred being poured out on Dorit there! And everyone there thinks it is obvious that she is paid for her services.

John I see your points but you know very well that lawyers are not interested in the truth. They are interested in protecting their clients. And we know who this lawyer's clients are.
To protect their clients' interests lawyers will tell Lies with a big L and say black is white.
Additionally, lawyers are often interested in becoming well known, making a name for themselves so that they will advance career-wise.
By giving a lawyer fathoms of attention one is contributing towards their career-climbing.

The reason this telecast is different is for the first time, ever, the panel of experts discussing the risk/reward benefits included an actual, honest to God, credentialed medical doctor raising the alarm about vaccine risks.

Think back over every other national telecast regarding the dangers of indiscriminate vaccination- the person presenting the argument that vaccines are a vector for iatrogenic brain injury have been RNs, bloggers, reporters, and attorneys (and they have usually done a great job)- but never have we seen a medical doctor inform the public as did Dr. Harper. It has always been "Doctor Provaccine" debating a non doctor.

Dr. Harper categorically refused to endorse the HPV series, highlighting instead the pap smear. She also commented that pediatricians are good at vaccinating, which I interpret as a deserved dig at the indiscriminate vaccinationists who refuse to follow up reports of vaccine adverse effects.

Can anyone remember any other national telecast that had a medical doctor as a pro safe vaccine advocate? I do beleive that this is a first.

Chris,

I think it is perfectly obvious what I think (although I think it is even more important to pay attention to the flimsiness of her case). It is worth recalling that her first appearance as a major player was less than six months ago when she took over in Harvard Law Review from Art Caplan peddling the case against Mary Holland that families who don't vaccinate should be held legally liable for infection.

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/billofhealth/2013/06/21/guest-post-crack-down-on-those-who-dont-vaccinate-a-response-to-art-caplan/

She is obviously acting at present as the principal public advocate of the vaccine industry. Whether she is paid or whether she believes what she says is another matter. And of course people believe things for all sorts of reasons.

My own view is of course that most people sort of believe in the vaccine program but the more you ever got to know about it the more sceptical you would be. Dorit engages primarily in legal arguments about evidence - why not (after all she's a lawyer)?

John

Yeah, John, I do this, too, to try to understand where these deeply committed pro-vaccine folk are coming from. I've looked at a whole series of different disciplines but never looked at a legal type, such as this Reiss woman.

Have you worked out what her motivation is? What drives her? Is it money - salary, referrals, any Big Pharm or Big Med connections - or does she have other justification for her part in this affair?

I always think that finding why they adopt the stance they do almost always defuses them and makes them so much easier to, if not shut up, then at least make them irrelevant.

Somebody named Ken R is doing a great job of off-putting all the people who feel their child has suffered a serious adverse event.


John, thank you for holding Dorit Reiss accountable for her shtick of repeating Pharma propaganda smothered with civility.

It takes hutzpah to defend a vaccine, the HPV that is reported to have a five year effectiveness limit and implications of vaccine injuries resulting in disability and death.

pharma trolls obviously trying to earn the Christmas wage bonus

Kristina

Yes, you are right about that too. There is in fact no level of proof that they will accept. All products are completely safe by virtue of the fact that they are vaccines.

Gardasil is derived from genital warts on penises and vaginas. I told my daughter's 7th grade classmates, this spread like wildfire and they were all so creeped our to think that was soon to be injected into their bodies that they became conscientious objectors. Easy.

Now three slam articles on Couric's/ABC's coverage- the LA Times piece has an interesting comment from someone who is a scientist and whose daughter had a bad reaction.

John Stone, even if the NVICP compensates a vaccine injury, that is still not "proof" to the shills. They just claim it was because it was "cheaper" and "easier" to concede the case than to continue fighting. I've seen that argument many times. They also like to say that what is awarded by a court has nothing to do with science, only the legal system. But they don't seem to say that when Vaccine Court denies an injury.

Slate has already written a hit piece on Couric's coverage. I think it burns that Dr. Harper is willing to hold some ground on this.

Interestingly enough, my first born daughter developed a high fever & lethargy after receiving her 1st DPT shot in 1989. I reported this to the pediatrician & she saw her. Upon our next visit for vaccines, our pediatrician informed me that she wouldn't be receiving the "P" Pertussis part of the vaccine, as she had an adverse reaction to it the last time & would only receive the DT shot. I was a young mom & followed the rules, trusting in my pediatrician, so I signed off on it. My now 24 year old daughter hasn't been vaccinated for Pertussis because her pediatrician was in charge under the guidelines & instruction of whoever told her that multiple babies had an adverse reaction to the "P" part of the DTP vaccine, advising not to give it. (Can you imagine those unfortunate babies who were still vaccinated even after their adverse reaction). Rewind even further to 1971 when I was 5 & my pediatrician stopped vaccinating for Small Pox because he told my mother that it had been eradicated & the vax was doing more harm than good! My best friend & neighbor of the very same age had a pediatrician who was still vaccinating for smallpox...guess what I contracted from playing with her following her vaccine....you guessed it....smallpox. My mother is 75, she saved our vax records & we didn't get as many, there weren't the combo vaccines like there are today, they weren't given at birth & never were multiple given in a visit. We need to go back to that way of thinking & stop our pediatricians & BIG PHARMA from profiting on vaccinating the masses to make $$$! Look at the way Flu shots are being shoved down our throats...10% discount on your shopping bill with the purchase of a flu shot. ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? Parents need to WAKE UP! What ever happened to our bodies, our choice! Vaccine court is an absolute joke! How did it come to this?

I went to the ABC site. It appears they have wiped their site clean of this episode, other than to have posted CDC recommendations for HPV and to have Katie's medical "expert" issue her own recommendations. I can't find the episode anywhere (ABC,youtube, etc.) Do you know where I can see it? I'd like to post it on my FB page so my friends who are considering it for their children can hear another side of the story.

The guardasil shots were FORCED on my 2 daughters when they were in high school. My oldest, is now 24 years old & received her first Guardasil vaccine on her routine visit for a physical at her pediatricians office in 2006 when she was 17. She said to the nurse with the shot, "Wait a minute, this is a new vaccine? How many studies have been done on it? What was the outcome & what is the point of this shot?" The nurse replied, "haven't you seen the commercials (which we had, we were bombarded by them on the t.v. constantly...one less...one less to contract cervical cancer). I stupidly said, "Honey, they wouldn't give you a shot if it were unsafe". Boy do I regret FORCING these vaccines on my precious daughters. Not long after the Guardasil vaccine, she began randomly FAINTING. The first time we were in Target. They ran a battery of tests, but found nothing! Now my 22 year old daughter is experiencing symptoms of ms...numbness, tingling in her arms & hands & spine. She drops things constantly. If we figure out that Guardasil has anything to do with those horrible vaccines...so help those makers because I am the "Norma Ray/Erin Brockovich of mothers"! My 22 year old is convinced this has to do with Guardasil! To be one less....Baloney! Useless vaccines. I have a 3rd daughter who will NOT receive any vaccines ever again in her lifetime. We fully believe that she was harmed at birth by the Hep B & then the MMR, as she has a diagnosis of PDD/Nos., which is Autism Spectrum Disorder. She always had red blotches on her face following vaccines & after she was born & got poked with Hep B. She would thrash around on our floor, clawing at her gut, screaming in pain. She's allergic to Corn Syrup, MSG & Sorbitol, all of which are ingredients in VACCINES she received. They couldn't find anything else, but irritable bowel syndrome & ASD. I should've know better than to have my daughters fall victim to vaccines like my youngest girl did. It truly isn't rocket science folks! We work out at gyms & watch what we eat, yet the preservatives & ingredients/additives in vaccines is horrifying!

Oh, and VAERS. Stupid tactic. VAERS is what the government set up. Inadequate, yes, on purpose. VAERS is the government's post vaccine administration surveillance system. How do we know what vaccines do after they're given? Well, we've got 1) VAERS set up by the government, we've got 2) industry "studies" in which the profiteers report what they need to report in order to sell their product - unopposed - 3) we have thousands of people coming forward from all walks of life with absolutely nothing to gain reporting that they and theirs have been injured and 4) we have independent studies done by honest scientists that confirm multiple problems with vaccines and the reports of the injured and deceased thousands, all which are largely ignored or vigorously denied by industry and government.

The attack on VAERS is ludicrous coming from them. These people are a joke.

I responded to this article early on. Ms. Reiss responded to my comment by stating that pap smears are not used to determine whether or not a woman has the virus or pre-cancerous cells or cervical cancer. She just says anything and I beg to differ with her on her statement as do thousands of doctors.

It's hard to have concrete evidence when those responsible for doing the investigating are also the ones committing the crime. Reiss knows that.

Cia,
"They said this afternoon that seizures and fainting were not more common in girls after Gardasil, that teenaged girls faint and have seizures all the time regardless."

Don't forget the diarrhea. Young girls have diarrhea all the time too according to Reiss. Perfectly normal.

And of course, Merck clearly warns of the risk of both seizures and fainting immediately after receipt of Gardasil. They advise that recipients should stay seated and be observed for at least 15 (20?) minutes after administration. This change came after some poor young woman passed out behind the wheel driving home after she got the shot. I believe that she was killed. Again, Reiss is a liar.

Re Herlihy - there was probably an error on her assignment sheet. She likely thought she was writing to Barbara Walters about Jenny McCarthy. Got her assignments mixed up. She states, "Your website is an utter disgrace. I have been reading it for over ten yeas." Ten years? Isn't Katie Couric's show new?

Where does she get the time, I have commented a few times but thanks to John and many others we are getting our say.

I thought it was extremely courageous of Katie Couric and ABC to do the show, albeit with Twinrix vaccine commercials sandwiched between airtime.
Dr. Diane Harper seemed the much more credible source for information and she totally body slammed the other pharma doc when she said the bit about Peds knowing about shots, not cancer and the fact of pap smears being ultimately the most important defence (in fact irreplaceable factor in terms of cancer prevention). We have to remember that she works in the field of medicine and there is only so much that she can say. She brought her A game.
I love that Katie really emphasized that the doctors have ignored parents' concerns. This point really came across. I guess only the doctor from Duke dared to explore and call it what it was- a vaccine reaction in the one girl's case.
I can totally see why Merck is now recommending that two doses of Gardasil may be enough- apparently the efficacy is so lame and the risk so high, that they're probably better off to say this. They really are laughable. I could just see the wheels turning in Katie and the mother in the audience who chose to give her girl the shots' heads regarding the poor long term prospects. You could see the betrayal.
John, you nailed it- next Dorit and the hip/clever gang will explain how, if you just got hit by a car and got bruises the next day, you simply cannot link the two as causal.

It is quite interesting that the new troll game is attacking VAERS as if even collecting data about vaccine injury and reactions was dubious. I don't know whether all these people are shills - an awful lot of them just seem to think it is hip - but it is very easy to play the game that no matter how much information is provided and however plausible it is it is not proof. Effectively the only time it gets proved (in the US) is if the NVICP compensates it, otherwise any grinning wise guy with no knowledge can turn round and say it is not evidence, and congratulate themselves on there own cleverness. And they are being coached in this strategy by Dorit.

Look at this comment from Katie's blog, by pharma shill Stacy Herlihy, who wrote Your Baby's Best Shot. (In it she describes her baby's vaccine reaction, inconsolable screaming for half an hour the day of the first DTaP, but it didn't do any apparent damage, she says it was a vaccine reaction, but absolutely wasn't any kind of encephalitis.)
"Stacy Mintzer Herlihy · Top Commenter · Author at The Rowman & Littlefield Publishing Group

"Barbara, on behalf of my fellow parents, I hope you're reading this.

Your website is an utter disgrace. I have been reading it for over ten yeas. Worse, attempting to explain to others why the information you and your mindless minions believe in is simply wrong. As usual, you vastly overstate the risks of the vaccine and vastly underplay the risks of the disease it is designed to protect our children against.

Please stop. Please stop quoting VAERS as if it were confirmed rather than raw data. Please stop lying about the efficacy of vaccines and stop pretending that vaccines are highly dangerous when they are nothing of the sort.

You are not a vaccine safety advocate. You are a public health menace plain and simple. Please find another hobby and go away."

I assume she meant Katie, but wrote Barbara, but who knows how these people's minds work?


Jen, Chrissy, Linda, Twyla,
You're right, Dorit is compensated for her labors beyond a doubt. No one would do this this many hours a day month after month out of concern for the unvaxed. She appears to do nothing else. She said yesterday, very unconvincingly, that she stood with the victiims of cervical cancer, as opposed to those of us mainly concerned with teen-aged girls damaged by Gardasil. Someone (not her) today called us racist to be so unconcerned with poor women in Third World countries who are the main victims of cervical cancer. I was shocked that on Katie's site, the new tack taken up by all the shills was to insist that no kind of vaccine damage was ever proven too have been caused by the vaccine, and that all the hundreds of people talking about their daughters' damage were just imagining a causal connection. Do you think they are going to be able to persuade people with that? Just like with autism, if they lose their language immediately after the shot, they were going to lose it anyway, for unknown reasons. They said this afternoon that seizures and fainting were not more common in girls after Gardasil, that teenaged girls faint and have seizures all the time regardless.

Dorit is very quick to play victim. I was on the other side of this just a couple weeks ago, where she was fine with her "like minded friends" stalking and harassing me, and went right along with it; but upset once her name got mentioned. Always humorous how these people claim that they are the ones who get attacked, harassed, stalked, and are so fearful. Yeah right. She is nothing but rhetoric coated in honey. Her comments haven't changed in years, same old nonsense. I give you credit John for hanging in there and attempting to have a real discussion!

I watched the show, but was disappointed. The woman whose daughter died from it couldn't give any details about her daughter's deterioration after the shots because of a pending lawsuit. The woman who said her daughter almost died from it had her daughter beside her, beautiful and apparently in radiant health. Could Katie not have gotten some of the hundreds of victims who posted to her website, whose daughters died or were permanently severely injured to testify? Jaime, top of Katie's blog right now, whose daughter died from Gardasil, said that the pharma shill doctor works for a company with a pharma company VP on its board. But I'm sure that's true of all doctors these days. Dr. Harper was good, but did not say what she has said elsewhere, that damage caused by the vaccine is much greater than damage prevented by it. And she did not say that the damage has caused great harm in thousands, only that the chances that it will cause a reaction are minimal. I liked that she said that the new protocol of regular Pap tests plus the DNA test for HPV infection offered a 100% cure rate for lesions discovered. I wish she had been more forthcoming. It would have been easy to put together a show that would have woken people up to the dangers of Gardasil, but that wasn't it.

Just watched Katie at 3:00 PM in New York City area. Here are Katie's opening comments:

"I had my two daughters vaccinated and so did millions of other parents .. but .. some say the risks may outweigh the benefits. There are claims it could be dangerous in a handful of cases .. even deadly .. but .. nearly 80 million Americans have HPV and there are 14 million new cases reported every year. We want to keep our kids safe .. but .. is the vaccine the way to go? That's what we're asking as today's "Big Question".

(Well .. yes .. "there are 14 million new cases of HPV reported every year .. but .. Katie's "Big Question" remains: Is this VACCINE safe?)

In any event .. it was ... understandably .. very clear in watching this show .. that EVERYONE .. from Katie to her guests .. which included Dr. Diane Harper .. a well-credentialed yet highly critical skeptic of the CDC/FDA "urgency" to recommend vaccinating girls as young as 9 .. and .. boys as young as 11 .. were extremely careful in the comments they made.

Can't swear to it yet .. as I haven't had the time to transcribe the comments .. but .. I think even Katie was surprised to learn the HP vaccine's "effectiveness" only lasts for 4 or 5 years.

Can't speak for Katie .. but .. to me .. recommending the vaccine for girls at 9 years of age .. and .. boys at 11 .. seems a little premature for a vaccine that is only expected to be "effective" for 4-5 years. No?

In any event .. thanks to Katie for having the "courage" to even broach this extraordinarily "controversial" subject ..

Chrissy/All,

Have any of you heard of the SABIN VACCINE INSTITUTE?

Link: http://www.sabin.org/

Years ago, when I used to spend hours of my time blogging/commenting at various sites about vaccine safety issues, I ran across one website in particular (owned and run by Johnson & Johnson) wherein there was a 'vaccine debate' forum on which a pediatrician used to participate. Of course, she was adamantly pro-vaccine and would shoot down any and all concerns re: vaccine issues by those of us who either had concerns about vaccines, and/or those of us who had actually watched our children suffer horrendous vaccine reactions.

Being the researcher that I am, I decided one day to look her up; tried to find anything on her that I could. When doing so, I hit the jackpot, for within my research I happened to find the website for the Sabin Vaccine Institute.

As I checked under this website's 'members roster,' lo and behold, there she was! I was so appalled when I found this, but then in hindsight, I thought, "Well, there it is. There's my answer as to why a pediatrician would spend SUCH an inordinate amount of her time commenting on pro-vaccine boards all over the Internet."

And believe me, she was ALL OVER the Internet, spouting her pro-vaccine rhetoric on many parenting web boards.

Below is a SNIP from this Sabin Vaccine Institute (a couple of SNIPS, actually):

http://www.sabin.org/mission

SNIP:

Vaccine Advocacy & Education

"Sabin also hosts international events, expert panels and immunization financing programs to bring together policymakers, researchers, industry representatives, public health officials, health care professionals, and others to share the latest research on diseases and vaccine development, discuss strategies for reducing global disease burdens, and develop and implement sustainable vaccination programs."

SNIPS:

"Successfully implementing vaccine immunization finance legislation and funding mechanisms in at least 15 pilot countries;

"Mobilizing millions of dollars from G8/G20 governments and other sources to support NTD mass drug administration;

"Developing and institutionalizing regional funding mechanisms in Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean and Asia;

"Supporting ongoing pharmaceutical donation programs for vital NTD medicines and ensuring the effective use of these critical donations."

AND

SNIP:

(UNDER VACCINE ADVOCACY & EDUCATION):

"In January 2007, Sabin joined forces with the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO), the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the Harvard School of Public Health and the Institut Catala d’Oncologia (Barcelona, Spain) to conduct a comprehensive study of HPV epidemiological data in Latin America, in an attempt to address this alarming global health concern. This study, the first major assessment of HPV impact has in the region, showed that the virus is far more common than anyone expected. It also effectively demonstrated that routine screening, along with vaccination, is the most promising way to tackle this disease.

Differences in resources and available screening programs exist, making it difficult for each country to decide whether vaccination is affordable, even if it may be cost-effective. If these challenges could be addressed, researchers concluded that half a million cervical cancer deaths could be prevented over ten years with the introduction of an HPV vaccine in the region."


...I'm certain there are other like-minded type pro-vaccine organizations of this ilk. And as I've stated above, this particular pediatrician's name was listed under a membership roster at the Sabin Vaccine Institute at the time I was doing my research. When I actually confronted this pediatrician about my recent find, she tried telling those of us at this forum that she was not affiliated with this organization. But she was. She later had to back-track her statements (and was eventually asked to leave this forum because of her rude and obnoxious behavior).

Chances are (and my suspicions are) the esteemed Dorit Reiss belongs to some group connected to Big Pharma; she is either being paid or in some fashion is receiving some sort of 'benefit' to combat so-called anti-vaccine rhetoric.

As I've posted in an earlier comment under another AOA article, "Truth is oft ridiculed, ILLUSION is KING."

That pretty much sums things up.

Katie Couric has a moral compass, a heart and a brain. She isn't going to be easily pushed around.

Reiss, on the other hand, IMO, is either being paid now or is working for some future reward, promised or hoped for. Her posts match the spirit of the other pro vax marketing defense tactics on the site. I believe they are all centrally coordinated.

One thing Dorit and the other indiscriminate vaccinationists always ignore is the subject of SV 40 tainted polio shots and the ensuing explosion in soft tissue cancers resulting from that catastrophe.

They cannot deny the event, as the IOM has acknowledged the event. Denying the connection between SV40 and soft tissue cancers, especially in very young children, is problematic because every oncologist on the planet knows that many types of tumors are in fact triggered by the precise polio strain SV 40 as evidenced by analysis of tumor DNA.

The vaccine lobby is a threat to the national security of all citizens in the United States. They are responsible for the death and maiming of innocent humans. It is long past time for justice to be served.

I appreciated Dr. Harper's comments. Her honesty was refreshing. However, I am somewhat disappointed that when she urged the viewers to make an informed choice the discussion didn't delve into what a controversial issue that has become. Our parental rights are being chipped away bit by bit.

That comments section that Linda linked to is some really bad pr for those Gardasil flackers. There seem to be so many people who really were not 'anti-vaccine' at all and who either personally suffered severe side-effects or witnessed a loved one being affected. One young lady (Jennifer) posts that she had the vaccine at age 17 and went on to get stage 4 dysplasia by 21. Those whole lawsuit in France thing isn't good news for them either.

Also, note how bothered Dorit is in the first conversation by my earlier article. She is saying if she walks away without answering it is because she's got better things to do.

But she still hasn't answered.

Chrissy and Linda etc.
I'm glad you counted the number of posts Reiss made. Common sense would tell you that a normal professional just doesn't have the time or interested to do this. Her bland detachment and dismissal of any possibility of problems is very hard to take, even if she isn't snarky. They are all so good at admitting that "very very rarely there are serious side effects from vaccines" but they do not want to talk specifics about it. She shouldn't be putting herself out there as an authority on vaccine reactions since she has no medical background, just the wordsmith thing. It has to fry people like Dorit that a mainstream professional like Katie Couric has taken on the topic.
Maybe Katie doesn't like the bs that goes with mainstream tv because I think I heard lately that she's jumping ship to AOL.

just watched the Couric report- I feel it was fair. Dr. Harper refused to endorse the shot and said Pap smears are the way to go. She pointed out that kids often have HPV before age of 9 due to skin to skin contact.

The vaccine shill doc recommended indiscriminate vaccination of all youth, despite the expert opinion offered by Dr. Harper. The vaccinationist doc lied on camera about the fact that 95% of HPV infections clear up on their own- she said 15-20% of the people infected would not clear the infection.

Dr. Harper had more credibility, the other doc came off as an industry bought off indiscriminate vaccinationist.

Overall I believe that objective people watching this report will conclude that the HPV series is questionable at best and based on the expert opinion of Dr. Harper- probably not necessary nor worth the risk. Dr. Harper got off a good zinger by saying that pediatricians are experts in giving vaccines because it is what they do. It was a great line.

In all honesty, are we to believe that this law professor is posting 800 times daily (just on one site) purely out of concern for public health? She's surely not doing an adequate job in her paid profession as a law professor if she's spending almost every waking hour posting incessantly on vaccine safety. Reiss is literally all over the internet, every day...facebook, twitter, magazine and newspaper articles etc. i know why we, as parents, are so focused on this topic, but why is she??

I'm eagerly awaiting the broadcast and hope that its fair and balanced.

For the first thirty years of my life it was old people who died of strokes. In the middle of my life I became aware that there were reports of young people stroking out. (The terminology morphed into "had an aneurysm" at some point.) Then my boss's thirty-something wife almost died from an aneurysm; a friend's teen-aged daughter died from an aneurysm and a colleague's twenty-something son died from an aneurysm. I remarked to a nurse friend that in the last twenty years a really lot of really young people had died from aneurysms. Without hesitating, she said that the rate was the same; I was just noticing it more. Sound familiar?

Now we know what was going on. And it's the same old story: deny, obfuscate, delay:

"....The Yale study had led the agency [FDA] to estimate that PPA [phenylpropanolamine] caused 200 to 500 strokes each year; it said the risk, while slim, outweighed the drug's benefits as a decongestant and a diet pill....The Buggs case offers a glimpse into how companies marketing PPA worked aggressively to assuage concerns about the safety of a drug that for six decades was a staple in American medicine cabinets....In the case of PPA, safety questions simmered for two decades on three fronts: in scientific circles, the courts and in Washington. In each arena, an examination of court records and other documents shows, pharmaceutical companies or their representatives tried to tamp down the public debate...."

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/13/us/another-part-of-the-battle-keeping-a-drug-on-the-shelves-of-stores.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

I especially liked this comment of John's:

"If the 'scientists' were real scientists they would be listening not sneering, and wondering whether they had really got it right. The only explanation of their current behaviour is that they know already that they've got it wrong and they are rushing for cover."

Some of the commenters are calling all the Gardasil moms liars. It's amazing, a mom tells a heartfelt, heartbreaking story of her daughter's serious disability and sometimes even death, and then is mocked as a liar or as not understanding science. What would be the motivation for so many parents to make up stories like these? And why has this never before happened in such numbers for any other vaccines received by teenagers? And how would an understanding of science prevent a person from noticing their child's vaccine injury? Like, "Who ya gonna believe, science or your own eyes?" What kind of science is this which prevents examining new evidence if it is inconsistent with public policy on vaccines?

The show aired here, but I haven't seen it. I looked on the website hoping to see the online clip and am finding a piling on of pro vax propaganda (surprise!), more being added every time I check:

http://katiecouric.com/2013/12/04/the-hpv-vaccine-controversy-rosie-perez/

First, there was a video comment by a Massachusetts General Doctor saying how important HPV vax is to prevent cancer ("An Expert Weighs In on the HPV Vaccine Controversy"). Now they've added some CDC links. I hope they don't take down the actual segment before I get to see it (if they put it up). Of course the doctor doesn't say anything about the deaths and disability caused by the vaccine. It's all about preventing cancer 30 years from now. If a few (or 150) happen to die now in order to save their lives later, that's not worth mentioning.

At the rate that they're adding propaganda to put out the fire, soon they won't have room for what's her face's accent story and George Clooney's big revelation. This story not only reveals the dark side of HPV vaccines. It also is now featuring the CDC in full damage control mode.

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it".

Precisely. So consciousness will need TO CHANGE to FIX this; and therein lies the problem.

Linda

Of course, upwards of 6,000 comments so it probably did a few times although even genocide could be batted off by a few flip comments. That, unfortunately, is the nature of rhetoric.

Has anyone seen the show? When I tried the Katie Couric channel finder I realised you couldn't get it in the UK.

John

Did anyone post in the discussion the Sanevax reported "Gardasil® HPV DNA discovered in post-mortem samples" from April 2012?

http://sanevax.org/breaking-news-gardasil-hpv-dna-discovered-in-post-mortem-samples/

Were these damning findings on autopsy followed up by anyone pushing this vaccine? If not, why not?

Louis,

Who knows? But I am well satisfied with the electronic text record for the moment!

John

Linda

They (and Dorit) constantly play the "prove it" game - when being able to submit proof in the form of a blog comment is probably neither feasible or wise. But, of course, what there isn't is due concern.

A point to be made is that when a court (or substitute bureaucratic arrangement) recognises damage, it recognises that damage happens irrespective of statistical significance. So, actually these people out there are denying the possibility of what is actually established in known science and law. The best they can say is it doesn't happen very often, but insofar as they resort to abuse to defend a claim which certainly is not true they are liars, and of course their activities are very prejudicial. Basically, they are saying speak out and we will cut you to pieces.

I would say they have two problems. One is the extremely loutish behaviour of most (which goes all the way up to Gorski) but even when you get the arguments put relatively courteously as by Dorit - the prof of law - they don't bear very much examination.

What of course terrifies them is things which are known to happen might also happen at the level of statistical significance, and the some money squeezed into a few people's hands here or there is not going to cover it all up forever.

John:
I wonder if Reis would debate in person?
Louis

Dorit Reiss is a liar. One particular comment that she made, not repeated in your piece, was in response to someone talking about the allergenicity of Gardasil. Reiss replied with some ridiculous dismissive statement about how and when true allergic reactions occur, concluding that on the basis of Reiss' definition, that the poster's report couldn't have been an allergic reaction. I was floored by the gall of this woman to project medical authority that she doesn't have. Her statement sounded diagnostic like she was practicing medicine without a license, which she does regularly.

In Reiss' disingenuous view nothing constitutes evidence of harm. Nothing. Not reports of victims, parents, witnesses, doctors, or scientists (Harper). She and the criminal corporations she defends are the only ones whose reports are reliable. A previously healthy young girl drops dead after a vaccine? She says it would have happened anyway. That's what her "studies" show, that the young girls given a "placebo" died or fell ill just as often if not more so than those given the vaccine. Sure. Healthy well nourished young girls die all the time for no reason. That is the basis of her lie.

John, you are too kind to Dorit Reiss. I can not stand her.

Thank you John for taking up the cudgels- it is like a game of whack a mole, but it is regrettably not a game.

The blog consists of two broad groups- individuals reporting HPV injury, this group accounts for about 3500 of the posts.

The other group consists of the indiscriminate vaccinationist lobbyists- Dorit among them- they seem to number number about 6. Though they are in the minority of individuals, they account for a staggering 40% or more of the posts. Dorit herself was up to over 800 posts, and she was taking time in between to post at Washington Tines as well.

Reading the comments on the blog, one is left with the impression thatDorit's crew are akin to Stalinist era Kommissariats- state sponsored disinformationists. The more they post, the stronger that impression becomes. I hope she keeps posting, in the amazing numbers she does, because she is really demonstrating her role as a financially interested propagandist.

"Orac as an authority"-

Perhaps Orac could comment on SV40 contaminated polio shots and the subsequent exponential increase in soft tissue cancers.


Now what kind of people from what walks of life are parents? Apparently only mistaken, ignorant people are parents.

Yeah that is what is causing the rise in autism; cause only the most messed up people become parents. Poor scientists having to put up with these ----- parents.

Beth

It seems to be an idiosyncracy of the blog - I hope it doesn't catch on.

Bob

Odd - I have been told 10am several times, most recently in an Autism Action Network circular. I am not sure of the authenticity of the Einstein quote - certainly Einstein believed that we needed to evolve some higher form of consciousness to solve our problems. There are some pretty brutal intellects out there. After, a week of the Couric blog I am grateful for Dorit's relative courtesy and her attempts to articulate arguments however shallow, but then she does keep on citing Orac as an authority.

John, good to have you on the case. A stimulating exchange.

John .. I live within ABC television for New York City area .. and .. according to my DIRECT TV schedule .. Katie's show will air TODAY .. at 3:00 PM.

One of history's most notable scientists .. Albert Einstein .. said:

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it".

As I understand Einstein .. the "conciousness" that created and promotes vaccines .. would be incapable of solving any of the problems arising from that "conciousness".

Which is why .. judging from this quote alone .. I suspect Einstein himself .. would agree with John Stone .. rather than Dorit Reiss .. on the subject at hand.

You say anyone can delete someone else's post? Since when did this start?! Merck and friends must be very happy to have such easy suppression of public opinion.

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