Support AOA

  • We'll send you an A of A t-shirt to thank you for your donation (of any amount.) Leave your address and size (M-2XL) in the PayPal instructions. Thank you. Check in each Saturday for our "Commenter of the Week" T-shirt winner too.

The Editors

@AgeofAutism Tweets

    follow me on Twitter

    SPONSORS

    Visitors

    « ANOTHER LOOK AT HOW IP AND WONG WENT WRONG | Main | TRIPLE THREAT »

    February 03, 2008

    TrackBack

    TrackBack URL for this entry:
    http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d8357f3f2969e200e5502454df8834

    Listed below are links to weblogs that reference AUTISM, SERIOUS SCIENTISTS AND THE WACKOSPHERE:

    Comments

    If I may comment on this. I had a very extensive exchange with this gentleman in 2006:

    http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/richard_horton/2006/04/the_sadness_of_mmr.html

    As it happens we both had blog names but neither of us made any attempt to disguise our identity. I, at least, had registered my blog name in the Guardian on the spur of the moment, and have often regretted not just putting down my real name since.

    What drove me crazy about him was not that I did not know who he was but that his technique seemed to be to prolong the discussion endlessly by apparently acknowledging a point and then coming back as if it had never been made. I would not have classified him as a coward, but I did think he was prolonging the exchange unnecessarily, acting in a way which would confuse outside readers, and demanded absurd levels of effort to respond to. Otherwise, he was a gentleman.

    Use a pseudonym to protect one's family? Understandable. Use a pseudonym as a professional shield? Reprehensible. But that's one of the downsides of capitalism. Transparency is anathema and ethics are flushed down the toilet, floating amongst antidepressant residue.

    Regarding Kevin's comment about Dr. DiCicco-Bloom, I'd be interested in seeing a flowchart "family tree" showing the interconnection between the CDC, vaccine manufacturers, university researchers and public health administrators. From what I've been reading over the years, quite a network of graft and mutually beneficial misinformation.

    It's way past time to start turning over these rocks and uncover the slime beneath. Too bad that investigative journalism in the mainstream media is under a Do Not Resuscitate order from their primary revenue sources.

    Orac,

    You say "Because their position is so tenuous and because there is no legitimate scientific rationale for it, their only fallback it to attack the person. Pseudonyms make it more difficult for them to attack the person."

    As I have read many the blogs and website comments on vaccines and autism over the years I have to say the biomed commmunity has much more civil discussion and well reasoned debate than that of the "pro mercury" crowd.

    If responding to someone elses statements is "attacking", what is it when your side does it? And just because YOU do not agree with a study does not mean it has "no legitimate scientific rationale".

    You say Pseudonyms make it more difficult to attack that person, we say it makes it more difficult to have a reasonable debate.

    Pseudonyms give people a strange sense of power I think, and that goes for some individuals on both sides of the vaccine issue. If you look at the individuals who post with their actual names you will see that the disscussion is reasonable.

    I stand by every comment I make on any blog and I am proud of what shows up when my name is "googled". (thank goodness it does not go back to my childhood though!!)

    Jonathan,
    I called people who make unfounded attacks and don't use their real names cowards. Since you use your real name here, you shouldn't take the criticism personally. For those of your friends who choose to promote confusion and discord, if the shoe fits, wear it.

    I have no interest in debating you or your friends. Your work is simply trivial and unimportant. If you disagree and think you have an important and valid critique of DeSoto's work, feel free to submit it to the journal editor.

    More to the point, you have taken personal pleasure in advancing ideas that harm my child. You have described yourself with glee as "an evil ND enforcer." In an open society, you have every right to express those views in open venues of your own or those that will accept you.

    But you are not welcome here.
    Mark

    Well...this was just so interesting to read! I like researching about slime and biofilms, toxins and mercury but this was equally good. Somehow it was familiar,,,yes..the pathogens/metals trying so hard to take over, to infect,to cause disease but we are outsmarting them and eliminating them by exposing them for what type of germ/contaminant they are.

    Keep up the good work Mark et al.

    Teresa/red

    My last and identical comment seems to have not popped up. I will try one final time.

    I one of the authors of the blog critique DeSoto & Hitlan responded to and whose name you delete in your quote of D&S.

    I would like offer some corrections of information you post here.

    1) We did not call D&S junk scientists.
    2) We did not get most of the facts wrong, as you claim. We made 4 errors of fact out of a great many issues discussed. When the errors
    were pointed out we acknowledged them, and offered am erratum.
    3) The use of a one-tailed vs. two-tailed test is not a side point. One gives you a statistically significant finding, the other does not. That is as relevant as it gets.
    4) We do not claim that D&S are a laughing stock in serious scientific circles.
    5) We do not use straw arguments to misrepresent D&S arguments as you claim.

    Mr. Blaxill, you do not deal with any of the issues we raise, including some fairly serious mistakes we noticed. Not a single one. Instead you call us wackos and cowards. We offered specific criticisms, you offered personal insults. I will leave it to your readership to decide what this means.

    To Richard:

    If you read some of my previous comments on this site, you will see that my appeal for “respect and fairness” have been issued to individuals on both sides of this issue.

    (Look in the January archives for “Grinker’s Stinker: His Wife Runs the IACC” as one recent example.)

    Unlike you, I don’t automatically classify another parent who doesn’t agree with me as a “foe” and I believe it’s this type of mentality that causes most of the infighting problems within our community.

    Hopefully, it can change. But, I’m not holding my breath :-(

    Kelli

    Dear Dr. Gorski,

    Does Dr. DiCicco- Bloom help you write your blog? ORAC is not listed as a member of the UMDNJ faculty.

    As a member of the Autism Speaks Scientific Advisory Board, Dr. DiCicco-Bloom is doing his best to steer research funding away from vaccines inside Autism Speaks. You seem to have a lot in common.

    Combined, your views and Dr. DiCicco-Bloom's help steer both public and private dollars to UMDNJ. Well done!

    Members of the UMDNJ Graduate Faculty
    http://catalogs.rutgers.edu/generated/nb-grad_0507/pg24131.html

    Emanuel DiCicco-Bloom, Associate Professor of Cell Biology and
    Neuroscience, UMDNJ-RWJMS; M.D., Cornell Regulation of developmental
    and adult neurogenesis

    David Gorski, Assistant Professor of Surgery, UMDNJ-RWJMS; Ph.D., Case
    Western Reserve
    Homeobox genes in tumor biology; angiogenesis inhibition in tumor therapy

    Kevin

    Would Mr. Blaxill use the ad-hominem attack of comparing anonymous blogging to murder if he were talking to people face-to face? Would he call them 'wacko'?

    If so, I would have the same comment to his face as I do here. Shame on you Mr. Blaxill.

    Ms. Davis, you are welcome to join in. If not, perhaps you should leave "calling on the carpet" to someone who applies it equally to friend and foe.

    I have no problem with people sometimes posting anonymously. Sometimes people wish to share personal information, or for other reasons they would like to discuss an issue without leaving a trail that is forever there for the world to see. But, as with many things, I feel there is a matter of degree. Someone like you, Orac, who professes to be such an expert, should be proud to say who you are as you spout so many reams of supposedly objective scientific information.

    I do not have time at the moment to search for all of your posts and try to argue the scientific pros and cons. Instead I will just respond to this post as an English major and say that your tone, as always, is extremely hostile and filled with venom. I don’t know how you can pretend to be an objective scientist on these issues when you cast so many emotional, inaccurate aspersions on those who disagree with you.

    The term “antivaccinationist” is propaganda. Parents are concerned about:
    - the cumulative effect of the very high number of vaccines given to infants at a such an early age, when the immune, digestive, nervous, and detoxification systems are all so immature and in the process of development, and
    - the toxic ingredients in vaccines which have not been adequately tested for safety, and
    - the cavalier attitude of government agencies (e.g. CDC, FDA) and medical organizations (e.g. AAP) to the many credible reports of adverse effects following vaccines (e.g. seizures, autistic regression, IBD).
    This does not mean that we are anti-vaccine. It means that we think the current vaccine system is harming many children and needs to be revamped. Weighing of risks and benefits needs to be done in a much better way. Problems must be researched and fixed instead of just being denied.

    When people who are pro-vaccine-safety encounter criticism, our “first inclination” is not to “out” our “opponents”. The first inclination of people such as Mark Blaxill and JB Handley is to provide scientific evidence to support their views, and they do an excellent job of this.

    Unfortunately, people such as you are blinded by prejudice and don’t read about scientific evidence contrary to your viewpoints with an open mind. And people like you have no problem with summarily dismissing the many, many accounts of vaccine injury. These accounts exist from times before this kind of issue was in the news. Many of these accounts are told by parents who were not aware of any of these issues until they saw their own children affected. Your cavalier, close-minded disregard of parental reports is extremely arrogant and cold hearted.

    Your posts are filled with spite and narrow-mindedness. You are living in your own world. To you this is like a big electronic game where you just want to win.

    And don’t tell me that any concerns about vaccine safety are outweighed by the health benefits of vaccines. I grew up at a time when I and all the kids I knew came down with measles, mumps, German measles, whooping cough, chicken pox, and the flu – and I don’t know a single person who suffered lasting effects. Yes, these diseases can have rare complications, but how do these complications compare with the harm from vaccines? We don’t really know, because the “experts” refuse to study vaccine complications and prefer to just deny that there is a problem. A comparison of health outcomes in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations could provide some good clues here, but officials at the CDC are afraid to so such a study.

    To orig cali biomed xprt:

    The Point: IF you really want to remain “anonymous” in order to “protect your privacy” then I suggest you do one of two things, either:

    1)Don’t post at all (see Orac’s comment below – seems you can be “found out”) or

    2)Present your points in a civil and respectful way – as you would if your real name was behind it.

    One of Mark’s main points in his piece is when a person assumes “an identity” they are less likely to weigh their words because there is no incentive for them to do so.

    In your original comment, you used the word “hysterical” in conjunction with the words “toxic talk” – that is very disrespectful to me and many other parents as well.

    Seriously, if you were discussing this topic with me face to face – right now – would you be that crass to call me “hysterical” to my face because I have a different opinion than you regarding this issue?

    I noticed in your second comment you reworded your original “hysterical” to “mis-guided beliefs” BUT ONLY when you were “called on the carpet” for it.

    Bottom Line: Next time, please remember Woody’s (Toy Story) admonishment to Sid when dealing with fellow parents: PLAY NICE.

    Kelli Ann:

    The problem is your mis-guided "beliefs" are having a detrimental effect on autistic people and society as a whole. I am not going to completely parse your comment, as you did with mine. I was merely explaining to Mark Blaxill why people prefer to remain anon. BTW, I don't have "an image" and I don't really even know what you mean by that. I sincerely want to protect my child from all this damaging talk about toxins and damage. And that is all.


    Silly people Especially you, Mark; your recent discovery of the blogosphere is on par with a sudden realization that MP3 players are a great way to play music, even though the iPod was introduced more than six years ago. Blogs have been around several years.

    Be that as it may, why is it that an antivaccinationist's first inclination when encountering serious criticism (and make no mistake, beneath all the sarcasm is substantive criticism based on science) is to "out" their opponents? I've speculated about this before. Based on my experience, I've come to the conclusion that at least one true mark of a crank, particularly medical cranks but certainly not limited to them, is that they are obsessed with who the opposition is. Pseudonyms drive them crazy. When they find someone posting material refuting their pseudoscience to Usenet, discussion boards, or a blog under a pseudonym something that criticizes their views, their first reaction is to try to unmask that person, not to refute their criticism. Because their position is so tenuous and because there is no legitimate scientific rationale for it, their only fallback it to attack the person. Pseudonyms make it more difficult for them to attack the person.

    Let's just put it this way. Nearly three years ago, a certain unhappy alternative medicine maven spent a lot of time Googling and managed to figure out my identity. He then sent threats of legal action to my Department Chair, my Division Chief, and the Director of the cancer institute where I work. I'll admit that it caused me some significant consternation, but all of them ignored it. My Chair, in fact, laughed it off and mocked the idiot who did it. However, in a less understanding environment, the tactics of "your" side are a concern and a legitimate reason to post under a 'nym, as are people like J. B., who's known for cybersquatting variations on oracknows domains.

    One also wonders what you think of members of "your" side like John Best, who drove Kevin Leitch. The day I see you criticizing John Best for his vile behavior. I might take your ludicriously self-righteous pontifications about anonymity somewhat more seriously than the joke they are.

    By the way, I realize that you probably won't publish this comment; so I'll also post it over at Kev's blog in his post that's making fun of you for this.

    Internet harassment can be reported to the FBI:
    http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.htm

    orig cali biomed xprt:

    “I don't want his/her name or our family name to show-up in anything related the hysterical 'toxic talk'.”

    Reading this, it seems to me like you’re more interested in protecting your “image” than your privacy.

    First, you should be able to say what you need to-- without using your child’s actual name.

    Second, visiting a website and posting a comment doesn’t automatically equate to an official endorsement of their mission, values and/or objectives. Wouldn’t it be obvious by YOUR COMMENT where you stand on an issue?

    Third, what you’ve done by using your “hysterical toxin talk” above is EXACTLY what Mark was referring to in his article! You’ve made a “gross characterization” about a group of people who believe that toxins have contributed to autism -- all under the guise of “protecting your privacy.”

    Sorry but that's the epitome of "Cowardice" -- Plain and Simple.

    Kelli Ann Davis


    Over the years, "interviews" highly critical of vaccines with alleged retired pharma insiders have cropped up. Unfortunately, they have always been anonymous. I have always said when they were reported that they were useless, for the very reasons you cite in your excellent column. What can we possibly make of such revelations? Nothing, sadly.

    "But unlike people that engage in the blogosphere using their real names and identities, these avatars all have one thing in common. They’re cowards."

    I really beg to differ. We are not cowards. Many of us simply value our child's right to privacy. I have been on-line since the 90s and used to use my "real" name. My child can google; his/her school-mates can google. I don't want his/her name or our family name to show-up in anything related the hysterical 'toxic talk'.

    So, not a coward, just someone who is protective and who values their child's privacy.

    I was looking to buy a game for my son. Came across this interesting one on Amazon called Blokus Strategy Board Game and according to a mom who reviewed it -

    "It also gets the brain working in non-traditional ways. You have to look at the grid in unique ways. The pieces aren't lined up in rows and columns like most games. You connect pieces by the corners. So sometimes you can connect a piece in an area that looks like it is totally bocked by your opponent."

    Here is the link.

    http://www.amazon.com/Educational-Insights-2995-Blokus-Strategy/dp/B00011F5DK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1202067985&sr=1-1

    Or you can search for "Blokus Strategy Board Game."

    What does everyone think, will this work for kids on the spectrum? Do they universally have problems with spatial skills?

    Here's his NIH grant program. A multi-year grant for the study of the Gax gene in cancer therapy.

    Grant Number: 1R01CA111344-01
    Grant Number: 5R01CA111344-02
    Grant Number: 5R01CA111344-03
    Project Title: Mechanism of angiogenesis inhibition by a homeobox gene

    The Gax genes is part of the class of genes known as homeobox genes. One of these, the HOXA1 gene, was a hot target in autism for a while. So Gorski makes his living doing genetics research? Good for him. Tha certainly helps frame the work of "Orac" in autism a bit more directly.

    I would suggest that David go back and do a global "replace" of Gorski for Orac in all his web activities. I'm sure he's not worried about the impact that revealing his past work as "Orac" might have on his scientifc career.

    Hey Mark:

    It's interesting to me that David Gorski, M.D,. aka "Orac", is now writing some things in his own name:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14

    Orac's bio:

    David H. Gorski, MD, PhD is a surgical oncologist specializing in breast cancer and an Associate Professor of Surgery in the Division of Surgical Oncology at UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and the Cancer Institute of New Jersey. An NIH-funded investigator whose primary research interests include tumor angiogenesis and the role of glutamate receptors in promoting the growth and metastasis of breast cancer, Dr. Gorski first became interested in pseudoscience and “alternative” medicine several years ago, when he wandered into the Usenet newsgroup misc.health.alternative and began critically examining the claims there. He has considerable blogging experience and looks forward to joining such an accomplished group of skeptical doctors to discuss evidence- and science-based medicine. Sadly, although he shares the same last name, Dr. Gorski is not related to Dr. Timothy Gorski, who is well-known as a skeptic and critic of dubious medical practices.

    JB

    Verify your Comment

    Previewing your Comment

    This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

    Working...
    Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
    Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

    The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

    As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

    Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

    Working...

    Post a comment

    Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

    Meet Our Advertisers


    Google Site Search

    • Google Site Search
      Google

      WWW
      ageofautism.com